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cherry picking manifesto commitments
Now you're just being daft - they do this all the time.
Once that happened it had to be held because once you get into the position of second guessing the voters and cherry picking manifesto commitments we might as well not bother having elections.
You are aware of the standing jokes that party manifestos are dont you? Usually that it's the first thing to be shredded after the victory party or its the new one is just all the stuff they didn't do from last time.
Though I'm sure you can list all the policies from the last one you read end to end.
Do you deny the difficulty that labour face? Do you really think alienating one half of their potential voter base is a good idea?
So, if its half the potential voter base, what about the other half?
How does that help your anti-brexit position?
Oh I don't know....how did voting UKIP help Brexit? Oh yeah - it forced the Tories further towards Brexiteerism.
they do this all the time.
I already addressed this earlier. To repeat, yes they do, but they shouldn't and are rightly criticised for it. Manifesto promises come in different shapes and sizes. Something on the scale of EU membership is not something any party could easily ignore or refuse to honour for obvious reasons.
I reckon it is time to face it, we’re going to end up with BRINO. It will still damage the UK but the last (nearly) three years has basically been spent working out the trade-off between how much economic damage we are willing to suffer to keep the muppets who voted for this from kicking off.
It will satisfy precisely no one and will just lead into another era of Brexies moaning about being betrayed and Remainers just saying that it was all pointless, stupid and damaging and achieved less than nothing.
When we leave, the campaign to rejoin starts.
Something on the scale of EU membership is not something any party could easily ignore or refuse to honour for obvious reasons.
A bit like tuition fees? Getting thems extra foreigners below 100k a year?
Is there some risk based "how ignorable is this policy?" ranking system that I don't know of?
And yeah, sounds like Labour will be the midwife of Tory Brexit, without a 2nd ref....
As we suspected
A bit like tuition fees? Getting thems extra foreigners below 100k a year?
Good examples. Where exactly was the will of the people then?
When push comes to shove, I'm positive there is an element of "how ignorable is this policy".
I reckon it is time to face it, we’re going to end up with BRINO.
Look at it this way, the nutters will see it as a massive defeat and failure of their mission. They'll be apoplectic. If this is the only way to beat them and prevent no deal, then we should be able to live with it.
forget it
Jeremy won't support a second ref if no deal is prevented.
****.
Then Labour's doomed.
Cooper motion passed, noo deal ruled out, at least for next week.
Ref now ruled out then!
Cooper motion passed, noo deal ruled out, at least for next week.
Passed 1st reading, and by not a lot so it will be voted on finally at about 10pm
If corbyn is saying no 2nd ref it's at odds with his front bench who have been saying it has to be added all day. There is always the opportunity to add it at the reading stage of the bill and to vote down the WA again - the events this evening have a bearing on that too
Passed 1st reading
Passed 2nd reading 315/310
Amendments now, further vote at 10pm.
What's the further vote, anyone know?
"MPs will now consider amendments to the bill.
It proposes requiring the prime minister to table a motion seeking MPs' approval for an extension to the Article 50 process beyond April 12 to a date of her choosing.
Further votes on the bill are expected at 22:00 BST."
Yep it's the sort of normal progress, vote in steps to review, make changes (typos to change of intent)
Final reading and results about 10pm to see if it goes up to the Lords - and it has to go to the Lords next
Ah OK, so if I understand right, any amendments, if passed could either dilute or strengthen the bill but it will still go to the Lords?
Am I missing something here?
If JC negotiates with the Maybot that another referendum is a requirement, Labour are screwed because it will stop leavers voting for them again...
If he doesn't then Labour are screwed because it will leave all the mad keen
leavers hacked off and he will be accused of enabling Brexit for the Tories.
.... but if he refuses to get involved after constantly telling everyone that Labour should be consulted, then he is going to get a kicking for that too?
So basically he can't win?... but he is going to have to choose one option isn't he - time to get off the fence?
... or have I got that wrong?
Yep Jez always had the same problem as may, a 50/50 split to contend with.
He'll have to get off the fence and take a position sooner or later.
His fence sitting is annoying more than 50% of his supporters and a hundred percent of everyone else.
So the one thing the Brexit can achieve is that it will trash both of the 2 main parties?
Finally... after looking for a positive for Brexit for 3 years we finally find one
(as long as it is both of 'em and not just one)
So basically he can’t win?… but he is going to have to choose one option isn’t he – time to get off the fence?
If you think there is a win then you don't know how the game is played 😉
This is not about winning or scoring some points but working out what is best for the country
This is not about winning or scoring some points but working out what is best for the country
Oh... I agree with you 100% - However I don't see many people putting the country first currently and the sort of rhetoric being used by the media and in particular the Brexiteer politicians (traitors/enemies of the people/coups/deselection campaigns etc) isn't helping to improve that situation.
I'm just trying to understand why anybody would think that labour are anything other than ****ed at the moment and the Maybot has just made it even worse by calling Jezza's bluff.
Labour were always gonna be fekked the second they get of the fence.
The illusion will evaporate when he's forced into taking a decisive stance.
Shit is really hitting the fan now isn't it?
Labour were always gonna be fekked the second they get of the fence.
The only way off the fence is with conviction and desire, whichever way they go they have to go all in and sell it to the people. Though I feel a strong mumble about to hit us along with some more resignations
something specific molgrips?
Voting for an extension when the answer is already no. Not sure how that works but it's just as well I'm not doing Barnier's job... .
It's another catch 22... If an extension is in law, the EU don't budge (ref or GE).
Then either a ref or GE will be forced.
Hopefully a ref as a GE won't accomplish anything.
Barnier’s job is actually quite easy. They hold all the cards.. No deal or raised eyebrows until the UK unshafts itself.
Voting for an extension when the answer is already no. Not sure how that works but it’s just as well I’m not doing Barnier’s job… .
Not sure you have been listening to the words being said, extensions are possible just for the right reasons, you would have to say that a good reason would be a resurgence in common sense in the UK and giving us a little more time to do that would save everyone a lot of cash
The illusion will evaporate when he’s forced into taking a decisive stance.
Funny how the only party which has had a clear, consistent and cohesive policy on brexit is perceived as the one being indecisive. This idea that labour has to choose between one set of supporters or another is wrong. They've created a policy which attempts to bring both sides together and address the root problems. Whether it's successful or not remains to be seen but it's been fairly successful so far.
extensions are possible just for the right reasons
and for the right length.
Bill Cash being his normal obnoxious self.
Yeah saw his early contributions, like a good STW pedant he was getting to the meat of the deal 🙂
I've been listening enough to have heard the UK government vote down any option that would justify an extension to Art 50. Unlees someone can point out what I've missed. So a question for you all:
What would justify an extension that hasn't already been voted down?
Unlees someone can point out what I’ve missed. So a question for you all:
What would justify an extension that hasn’t already been voted down?
At every point the language used by the EU has been very careful and measured, it has never ruled out long extensions or delays, they have left many doors open for the UK.
Bill Cash being his normal obnoxious self.
Who the **** votes for that soapy old goat?
https://www.parliament.uk/biographies/commons/sir-william-cash/288
The good people of Stone - Posh Rural Stoke 😉
Funny how the only party which has had a clear, consistent and cohesive policy on brexit
The Liberal Democrats?
A long extension is dependent on the UK taking part in European elections, beyond 12 April "a long extension will automatically become impossible" if the UK does not organise elections.
The short extensions depend on the signing of May's deal. That's not happened so far.
So I'm stil all ears. What can justify an extension that is currently on the table and hasn't been voted against?
Try watching some EU TV channels because they are a lot more clued up on teh contradictions than the Beeb or even the much better coverage on Sky news. When the EU journos look at it they can't see why May should be given an extension given her refusal to either sign the deal or bring something new to the debate.
If we leave without a deal aren't we screwed on the Irish border issue?
Try watching some EU TV channels because they are a lot more clued up on teh contradictions than the Beeb or even the much better coverage on Sky news.
I do tend to try and watch many sources but the statements direct from the EU leaders
When the EU journos look at it they can’t see why May should be given an extension given her refusal to either sign the deal or bring something new to the debate.
So why do you assume something new will not be brought to the table? At the moment the chances of May making May are slim, the chances of Parliament shackling the PM enough to force change are high, the state of the government is shakey.
If I was the EU I'd like to see the revoke argument play out at least, I'd want No Deal binned for a start - the point where the she goes and the tories live is not a deal the EU want to get to as it's the one with no withdrawal agreement.
There are a heap of options in play at the moment.
What would justify an extension that hasn’t already been voted down?
I don't think anything has been fully ruled out yet has it? The indicative votes weren't binding.
I think it's time the BBC was put out of our misery.
Good to see the PMs head of communications is so strongly against unelected people influencing the policy and legislation of the British parliamentary system.
Next PM?
https://twitter.com/Peston/status/1113548595591045123
Sounds like he has the plan
MPs have rejected the Cooper bill at Committee stage by 304:313.
balls
I think that was a mistake on the Guardian feed no?
That was the defeat of
George Eustice. It seeks to prevent any extension to article 50 beyond the end of June.
Good old Grundiad PMSL
Guadian feed yep, mistake? unsure . searching for confirmation from other sauces ( hp)
BBC latest feed was 22:25 and still on amendments
Check the indie live feed, it's faster than the beeb and more accurate than the guardian.
The first amendment to be voted on is amendment 21 which takes out the requirement for the prime minister to put the EU’s chosen extension date to MPs.- Rejected , yep Guardian fail.
Government defeated on extension amendment
House of CommonsParliament
MPs have voted against the government's amendment 22 by 400 votes to 220.
This amendment would have ensured that nothing in the bill could have limited the power of government to seek an extension in their own way.
Was that the one that was defeated?
I get the feeling remainer MPs have tasted blood now....
Is it too early to be hoping that the brexiteers might just have the whole thing swept from under them?
Second largest government defeat in modern times
The government was defeated on amendment 22 by 180 votes.This makes it the second biggest defeat in modern times.
The biggest ever defeat was the first meaningful vote on the prime minister's deal.
Imagine hitting all those records....
Imagine hitting all those records….
I think that gives her 3 of the top 5 defeats now. Maybe she wants to clean the board.
Wonder who is paying the bills for Sir Lynton Crosby (the fact he is a knight renders the honours system pointless on its own) companies astroturf campaigns on facebook to try and pressure MPs to vote out.
The amendment tabled by Anne Main has been defeated by 488 votes to 123.
The Conservative MP's amendment would have place a limit on an extension to Article 50.
I'm thinking this one might go the right way....
if the people demand it, then their leaders are duty bound to give them one. Democracy in action?
Jesus christ, why do you still keep trotting out this bollocks?
MPs are duty bound to act in the interests of their country in the first instance and their constituency in their second. They are not duty bound to give in to demands from outside influences (and if they were then parliament would no longer be sovereign, and I hear that's really important to a lot of people).
You seem to be assuming that I’m against a public vote. I’m not. I have concerns that it will cause more problems than it will resolve, which is why it shouldn’t be imposed against what the people want.
See above. I agree that there's a danger that it'll cause problems (which is in part why I'm against having one), but "what the people want" is no reason not to have one, that's just a non sequitur.
What the people think they want is an irrelevance in a representative democracy.
Wonder who is paying the bills for Sir Lynton Crosby (the fact he is a knight renders the honours system pointless on its own) companies astroturf campaigns on facebook to try and pressure MPs to vote out.
Well, isn't that a very interesting question. I was wondering the same thing earlier today. They've spent a -vast- amount of money on targeted propaganda in the last few months.
Hammond on Peston acknowlging that No Deal is likely to trigger an independence refrendum in NI
I think that is inevitable now, the way the government & the DUP have treated NI & ireland in this process, we should be prepared for this either way, and all the upheaval that could bring.
As much as it is highly amusing to watch both labour and the Conservatives collapse because of thier own selfish ideals of party before people, we now need a functional government.
What the people think they want is an irrelevance in a representative democracy.
Well I guess this is the crux of where we differ as I view representative democracy as inferior to direct democracy, which is why I defend direct democracy on the rare occasion it is employed. Also I think the view of the people towards their MPs is changing from the representative model to something more direct. Most probably as a result of the internet I guess, but it's a change for the better IMO.
'kinell that Lammy video nails this reason we are in this mess perfectly
One of the beauties of lambing time is I get to legitimately stay up for half the night. I ust say the live feed from the HOC is some of the best entertainment I have had for ages 🙂
Was that the biggest ever defeat I just witnessed of the Rees Mogg amendment?
I like Lammy a lot, I disagree with him on some things but on balance, I'd rather see him as PM than the shit shower of incompetent weasels we have at the moment.
Well I guess this is the crux of where we differ as I view representative democracy as inferior to direct democracy, which is why I defend direct democracy on the rare occasion it is employed.
We don't necessarily differ on that, I don't really have an opinion either way (or rather, I probably would but I'd have to go away and think about it first).
The thing you seem to be continually missing / ignoring though is, the UK is not a direct democracy. We do not have any capacity for such a thing in English law. If an act of Parliament had been enacted to legislate for mandatory referendums before the 2016 referendum took place then you might well have a very good point indeed, but it wasn't, so you don't.
Ie, what you or I may think is an inferior or superior system here is again an irrelevance. It has no legal bearing.
The bill passes by ONE vote. 313 votes in favour, 312 against
Lol
I like Lammy a lot
It was a good speech.
To go the other way listening to the debate now. That Francois really is a tosser. His latest shite.
Watching the Cooper Bill pass was wonderful. Watching TC Francois self combust afterwards was absolute gold.
Its a shame most politicians are too scared or to stupid to make a pragmatic and honest speaches.
I wish Francois was on Twitter, the odious twerp.