[Closed] EU Referendum - are you in or out?

but they did it in an abusive way, which isn't

Didn"t THM tell someone to STFU only a few pages ago?

Probably doesn't count as abuse, but it's the only recent example I can think of… most of the rest (in both directions) has just been the frustration of opposing ideas not always being grounded in the reality (as one or other side sees it) of the problems we really face as a country.

Good article Mr Woppit.

People called out BS, which is fair, but they did it in an abusive way, which isn't.

TBh what do you call someone who repeatedly says things that are not true ? it is impolite but the problem is it is also factually accurate.

Links/quotes demonstrating 'abuse', please.

Most of the "abuse" has been a Leaver popping their heads up (good for them) stating a view (good for them), and then asked for examples…they supply examples… then being shown that their examples have nothing to do with EU membership… and then them scurrying away… followed by a third party complaining about abuse. This mirrors the rest of the UK very closely I feel… not really a STW forum problem specifically.

Junkyard - lazarus

[b]D[/b]epends how long and to what extent the BS was and is

When you repeat factual errors often enough fo[b]l[/b]k will start to question your charac[b]t[/b]er not just your intel[b]l[/b]ect[b],[/b] see [b]T[/b]rump for example

You are correct kelvin.- I did snap after a page of zokes’ BS. I have spent a huge amount of time over past month and a bit ensuring that two members of staff are ok with residency so his BS about not caring really grated. Stupidly I did say STFU which was poor.

I should have ignored him like the chief troll who even abused Remembrance Day with his usual crap. But he’s been easy to ignore for years despite the daily goading.

But you are correct to remind me. It was an error. My bad.

I though leavers left because that’s what leavers do.

Less facetiously, the leavers has to quit threads like this because their narrative claims Brexit is all over and done with. To still be discussing it, worse still discussing it with facts, would run counter to that narrative.

So you see, bullied or not, with anything to say or not, they had no choice but to leave.

I did snap after a page of zokes’ BS.

Have i understood this correctly?

If i were to say for example "sorry I snapped because of his BS" - I assume this apology would be acceptable then you would STFU - your fault I said that BTW obvs?

IF it will then I will happily apologise for his BS making me do it

This is just to weird even for me Laters all

Not sure it does IGM. One of the leavers who I do read regularly is Roger Bootle albeit in the Torygraph. But did read his book too to see why they won and we lost.

Judging by his column today, he clearly does not think that’s it’s over and down with. Far from it.

So, we've reached the conclusion that many people have over-stepped the line a bit on these topics but that hardly any of it has been really nasty and/or personal. In the odd case that constantly calling people out over their posts has become heated, it is probably six of one and half a dozen of the other. I think telling someone to STFU is not really a personal attack or bullying and is more indicative of the 'attacker' losing their rag.

So..............

Given all the above - what about the NI border question that was being asked about half a page ago?

Have you found a leaver to ask?

Have we done Redwood advising people not to invest in the UK, whilst simultaneously pushing madly for a hard Brexit, I wonder if he plans to buy up cheap afterwards ?

https://www.forbes.com/sites/francescoppola/2017/11/12/british-lawmaker-advises-investors-to-take-their-money-out-of-the-uk/

Is that an admission that you (THM) have no idea of any solution that will be acceptable to all sides? What do you think happens in that case?

I’ve made views on NI well known in the past.

No change since then.

When you repeat factual errors often enough folk will start to question your character not just your intellect - see trump for example

I wouldn't abuse Trump if he were on here. I'd explain to him why he was wrong.

Have you found a leaver to ask?

Yes, they all say it'll be sorted, but can't paint a picture of a possible scenerio that they can accept as "we have really left" that would also prevent a new customs border between either Ireland/NI or NI/GB, neither of which is really acceptable to the people living in NI. Start taking about agriculture and food/drink production that involves people and companies both sides of the border, and they start to get even more flustered as they have to actually think about what is ahead (that they voted for). Can you paint us a picture THM? You do keep saying that insisting on NI problem being addressed is a delaying tactic… how would you address it? Does you picture keep all those "not really left" people happy without shafting people living and working across the border? I still can't see a way, especially given timescales, and I really, honestly, want to see one.

Now, Gibraltar next… what's our plan for not shafting the folk living there?

Anyway, do you think the Spitfires might frighten the unicorns?

Don't you know [b]anything[/b]?

A study was initiated by Boris Johnson to design horn-mounted ear muffs (a British manufacturer had agreed to make 10,000 units at only 300% of the price a Chinese company could do them for), but then they realized that cyborgs can't hear so......

They'll be specially trained to distinguish the Rolls Royce Merlin from the Daimler Benz that powers those dastardly Messerschmitts.

I have no idea but will be very interesting to see what solution/fudge they come up with. Inevitably it will be some form of soft border and perhaps a new and innovative solution. Who knows?

I steer well clear of Irish politics. It’s beyond my comprehension so I leave it to those who know better. I have read both sides’ briefing papers but don’t feel any closer to knowing what the outcome will be. I did note the EUs opposition to the obvious need for a bespoke solution (their words) but no surprise there....

I wouldn't abuse Trump if he were on here.

Nah, sorry, that's a step too far in the let's-all-hug-and-make-up love-in we now apparently have to have after nearly 1,050 pages because someone can't or doesn't want to answer a straight question.

If Trump was on here I'd consider buying a road bike. After calling him a ludicrous, bouffanted, orange tosspot, that is.

perhaps a new and innovative solution

😆

So it is unicorns, then?

I wouldn't abuse Trump if he were on here. I'd explain to him why he was wrong.

Anyway we are not discussing what you would do we are discussing what actually happens- amazingly folk are "rude" to serial liars. I am not sure who exactly this is news to or why you are surprised or why you think this is "Bad".
To me the cure is for liars like trump to stop lying rather than for folk to stop accurately describing this behaviour because its "rude". YMMV

I have not said whether it it right or wrong [ I can see both views tbh] but expecting it to not happen is naive wishful thinking,Who you blame is your choice the liar or the ones who call them a liar.

So who's pointing out this abuse, I seemed to have missed it?

Leprechauns shurely.

I just checked the gov website and there is a link to the NI Affairs Ctte meeting on the border question with submissions from Swiss and Norwegian representatives on 1 Nov. Might be worth a read on train home.

I have no idea

That makes millions of us.

I'd just like a hint that someome has an idea, that might be acceptable to those pushing for us to Leave as well keeping the peace in NI, even if the rest of us can"t understand it fully.

perhaps a new and innovative solution

I think it's called reunification

It would be funny if it wasnt true..

http://newsthump.com/2017/11/13/brexit-vote-will-see-parliament-given-choice-between-terrible-deal-or-even-worse-one/

Brexit secretary David Davis has announced that there will be a parliamentary vote on the terms of the Brexit deal, giving MPs the choice between an awful deal, and an even worse one.

Davis told reporters that it was important that MPs are given the final decision on whether to accept the negotiated deal – or to leave the EU without one – so that he cannot be personally blamed for the inevitable shit-show that follows.

“The negotiations are extremely complex, but they are going well,” Davis told the press.

“But like any functioning democracy, the ultimate say on whether the nation accepts the negotiated deal will come down to our elected officials.

“Before March 2019, they will be given a free and democratic vote on whether to go with the truly awful deal I will have inevitably negotiated, or to go instead with the even worse option of leaving without any deal whatsoever.

“It will be their choice entirely, they will choose which direction the country goes in, not me – and you should all remember that when the recriminations start.”

Those voters who remain sceptical that Brexit will be good for the country have wondered if ‘Not leaving the EU’, might be an option when the parliamentary vote comes around.

“Don’t be ridiculous,” insisted Davis.

“Your options are very simply ‘in the shit’ or ‘something even more awful’ – ‘staying as we are’ is never, ever going to be an option. The people have spoken, and as such our MPs must chuck us off a cliff, or push us into the fire.

“Suggesting there is any other option is frankly absurd

I just checked the gov website and there is a link to the NI Affairs Ctte meeting on the border question with submissions from Swiss and Norwegian representatives on 1 Nov. Might be worth a read on train home.

Remembering that our government has ruled out Swiss and Norway style arrangements already. For purely party politics reason I assume. Why look at an already existing arrangement that it might be possible to closely replicate in the timescales in front of us… practical Conservatives…

cloudnine - Member

😆

Swiss / norway style agreements would still mean a hard border somewhere unless it applies to thee whole of the UK. In which case it would no0t be acceptable to the leavers as we would still be bound by the ECJ and most EU rules

So any sign of those 58 Brexit impact papers yet?

The deadline was last Tuesday I believe.

Last I heard there was [url= http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-latest-news-government-secret-studies-publish-economic-impact-eu-leave-steve-baker-brexit-a8041976.html ]"some misunderstanding"[/url] and Steve Baker was claiming that they didn't [i]really[/i] exist as such.

Which I suppose is slightly better than "The dog ate it", but does make me wonder what David Davis was talking about when he said at the end of October that [url= http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/david-davis-theresa-may-brexit-reports-not-read-secret-detail-uk-economy-impact-leave-eu-a8022946.html ]"they are in excruciating detail"[/url].

Absolutely pathetic!

Northern Ireland Affairs Committew Q & A with Swiss and Norwegian Reps

http://www.parliamentlive.tv/Event/Index/869f8e74-a3d7-47ce-85f8-6f70fe6d9f12

practical Conservatives…

Perhaps pause and think before posting. The clues in the name of the Ctte.

Perhaps pause and think before posting.

Also you might want to check the membership of that committee.

For anyone that can't be bothered:

Dr Andrew Murrison (Chair) - Conservative
Mr Gregory Campbell - Democratic Unionist Party
Maria Caulfield - Conservative
Mr Stephen Hepburn - Labour
Lady Hermon - Independent
Kate Hoey - Labour
Jack Lopresti - Conservative
Conor McGinn - Labour
Nigel Mills - Conservative
Ian Paisley - Democratic Unionist Party
Jim Shannon - Democratic Unionist Party
Bob Stewart - Conservative

So 5 Tory, 3 DUP, 3 Labour, 1 Indy.

http://www.parliament.uk/business/committees/committees-a-z/commons-select/northern-ireland-affairs-committee/membership/

The government are approaching this problem the way I used to approach doing homework projects at college . . . .

😉

indeed a cross party Ctte taking evidence from people with experience

How very dare they

Very encouraging evidence as well.

ssshhhh

mefty - Member
Very encouraging evidence as well.

for example?

I'm sorry I missed this post

How exactly can the UK courts rule over an EU issue? What compels the EU courts to abide by the UK courts decision? (which by your own admission isn't that A50 is irreversible.)

I think you are missing the point that I am making. Why was the Supreme Court's commentary on the irreversibility not decisive? Because that argument was not made and therefore it was not determinative to the judgement. However, the Supreme Court still chose to comment on it, this is technically called obiter dictum, not binding as precedent but persuasive. At present, absent any other judgements considering or mentioning the issue it is the most persuasive evidence of how a court would interpret it.

mefty - Member
I'm sorry I missed this post

How exactly can the UK courts rule over an EU issue? What compels the EU courts to abide by the UK courts decision? (which by your own admission isn't that A50 is irreversible.)
I think you are missing the point that I am making. Why was the Supreme Court's commentary on the irreversibility not decisive? Because that argument was not made and therefore it was not determinative to the judgement. However, the Supreme Court still chose to comment on it, this is technically called as obiter dictum, not binding as precedent but persuasive. At present, absent any other judgements considering or mentioning the issue it is the most persuasive evidence of how a court would interpret it.

we're never going to agree. But regardless, it's not even particularly a matter for the courts to decide, unless there was a conflict, which still wouldn't be the uk courts. If the uk gov wanted to reverse A50 and the europeans agree, it's not a matter for the courts, it's ultimately a point of political agreement.

we'll agree to disagree.

Genuimely interested in your observations re this select committee btw.

for example?

Watch it, Swiss guy very positive about the ability to control a border without huge delays.

you really should check your own tone

Its really amusing to see one of the rudest posters on here [ also in that club] moan incessantly about others rudeness

He is not a turn the cheek sort of a guy or a do unto others sort of a person.

I am watching it.

So far it's missing the point that the logistics isn't really the Irish problem, it's the political impact and symbolism of it. Seems to be spectacularly missing the point as far as I can see.