is your argument that up until today they did not believe this and now they will capitulate and change tact now the "believe" us?
What evidence do you have to suggest they will move on thei criteria - what was is it in his speech that made you think he was about to change? I cannot see anything because there was **** all it was all about what we had to do to move it forward
One sided THM but at least your one side was accurate.
What a balls up.
The EU clearly did not believe that the UK was actually planning on leaving... This is why in they started accepting bids for relocation of the EMA and EBA in June of this year...
Their tactic always was going to be extract as much from the UK as possible and make sure we are not an equal competitor so that they can control the relationship. It is exactly what we are trying to do to see if we can improve our position from that of a member state.
Is it me or are the Express starting to question Brexit?
Its in the process of being sold to the trinity mirror at the moment according to reports. So they might already be switching editorial stance since I doubt Desmond would be paying much attention now.
The chance of us leaving is looking the most unlikely since the advisory referendum.
It's utter suicide.
“Leadership is about confronting the great challenges. But Brexit is the biggest challenge we have faced since the second world war. So I intend to devote my speech, in four parts, to this alone.
“First, I want to explain why I voted remain – because for all its faults, the European Union has been a force for good in Europe and in the UK. I believed that our future prosperity and security, and opportunities for our young people, would be enhanced by staying in. Second, I want to explain why, nonetheless, I was something of a reluctant remainer. The truth is, there is a lot wrong with the EU. So though I voted remain, I was not starry-eyed. I was determined that, had we won, we would also fight for reform.
“Third, I want to explain why I have been trying so hard to deliver the Brexit the people voted for. It was a close result. But leave won. I felt strongly that it was my duty to deliver the only Brexit that I believed could meet the demands of the majority of leavers – out of the single market and the customs union, out of the European court of justice.
“But precisely because I have a profound sense of duty, I want to tell you the absolute truth as I see it. It cannot be done. Yes, you can shout. You can storm out. But I have looked at it every which way. And, as your leader, I have concluded that it cannot be done without enormous damage to our economy, to your living standards, to our public services, to our standing in the world. This is damage I am not prepared to inflict. The cost is too high.
“I will publish the legal advice that I have the right to unilaterally revoke article 50, and if you look behind me you will see the backdrop has gone and instead there is onscreen the letter I will be sending to Donald Tusk and the EU 27 heads of government later today.
“I say to Boris, to Michael, to Liam, and to their acolytes, it is decision time. If you feel you don’t wish to listen to the arguments I will make, then you know what you have to do. I am ready for any challenge, confident that finally I will be able to fight for what I believe is the right course for Britain, and confident that once the public have the proper debate we failed to have during the referendum and the election, that my view can prevail in the country.
“The Labour party will also have to make up its mind. Most Labour MPs support the position I am setting out today, though their leadership may need to be persuaded. We may need a general election to settle this. At some point we may need a referendum to reverse the outcome of the first one. I am aware I am launching something here, the course of which is unpredictable. I am prepared to take all the risks attached to that. For I am no longer willing to pretend. I am no longer willing for the delusions of the few to dictate a strategy for the many, when so much is at stake.
“I will also be publishing the sectoral advice papers we have received on the impact of Brexit on all aspects of our national life, so MPs can debate these fully. I know many of you think I might be ill. I feel a lot better now. Because what has been making me ill is the reality of which I have been certain more each day … that Brexit is a disaster, a potential catastrophe for our country. That my duty now is to steer the country to the only sensible decision I can see – a rethink, a change of course: not hard Brexit or soft Brexit, but no Brexit at all.”
Theresa May
That could be her best strategy.
Alternatively she could just say - "sorry you lot, you're too thick to understand, we were only joking about respecting the outcome, now STFU, your views don't matter, just do as you're told."
Yours, nanny
I doubt she is as rude as you
Either version would get my vote.
Yes imagine a tory politician putting the needs of the nation ahead of her back bench and shockingly being honest. It would help her case for brexit if she could be honest about the likely outcomes
"sorry you lot, you're too thick to understand, we were only joking about respecting the outcome, now STFU, your views don't matter, just do as you're told."
That's pretty much how Tories treat the nation in just about any other issue, so why not this one?
😆I think the most ridiculous way this whole thing could end is if the UK crashes out of the EU with no deal but was forced to join Schengen.
"sorry you lot you're too thick to understand we were only joking about [b]all the awesome possibilities post brexit, the money and the making stuff better. [/b][s]respecting the outcome, [/s]now STFU, your views don't matter, just do as you're told [b]we have some laws to quietly get rid of"[/b]
And fify
That's pretty much how Tories treat the nation in just about any other issue, so why not this one?
I think he's right you know. They don't give a shit about our views unless they can use it to suit their own purposes. 1% of brexiters using the other 99%
sorry you lot, you're too thick to understand
A large portion of them are indeed too thick, and many others are as you like to put it too lazy to understand.
You can't seriously believe that leavers voted on carefully considered and rational grounds? I've read before that the problem with economists is attempting to model humans as rational actors, so perhaps you do think that 😉
^^ winky smiley
I do love this concept that democracy is a once and forever idea.
A second referendum once the lunacy of leaving the EU becomes even more evident is the obvious answer
What if they had a referendum every year - "do you want to increase NHS funding?"
I bet it'd be yes every time. But they wouldn't do that, would they?
I do love this concept that democracy is a once and forever idea.
It's a childlike interpretation of democracy.
Yes, but no - they are picking the argument to bolster their position. As has been said, if the result went the other way there's no way they would be going on about respecting the will of the people.
if democracy was a once and forever option then we voted to join the EU once before
We also get to change our minds about who governs us every few years
Well it would be perfectly in keeping with EU tradition if we simply kept on having votes until the so-called “correct” decision was delivered
Democracy by attrition
Molgrips - given the BS that is constantly spouted by remoaners, normally to suppress debate and education (see yesterday’s Theresa May thread for a prime example) your comments are “surprising”. But the “too thick to be counted” narrative is another tradition of those who seek to depress democracy to suit their own ends.
teamhurtmore - Member
Well it would be perfectly in keeping with EU tradition. If we simply kept on having votes until the so-called “correct” decision was deliveredDemocracy by attrition
Isn't that what every general election contested by UKIP was?
If May stands up and presents the actual case as it stands, addresses the challenges and sets out a position then maybe we can judge her on that. They have done nothing at all like that, they are still pretending it's all going to be awesome and what shot of anyone who isn't falling in line.
The Borris/Gove letter was almost an attempt to get fired to trigger a Brexie Take over of the tories and install the real believers.
Whats the chances on her winning the vote?
Well it would be perfectly in keeping with EU tradition. If we simply kept on having votes until the so-called “correct” decision was delivered
Yes after a few adjustments, democracy. Ask people if they like something, listen, change, then ask if people are happy.
Sorry if you would rather have a Tory fiefdom, but some of us prefer something else. IT would be helpful if the media was actually truthful and politicians held to account for contempt of parliament.....
don't feed the troll. there is no point in argueing ith him.
Thou shalt do as the Minister of Truth commands.....
Alternatively you or any brexiteer could come up with a credible plan that doesn't complete **** the country. You've had a year and a half so far, so what's keeping you?
Alternatively you or any brexiteer could come up with a credible plan that doesn't complete **** the country. You've had a year and a half so far, so what's keeping you?
Reality!
Which ministers are telling the truth...
teamhurtmore - Member
Well it would be perfectly in keeping with EU tradition if we simply kept on having votes until the so-called “correct” decision was delivered
And presumably then stop yes?
So if you had a few votes on membership of the European club and then you got one that went your way and you decided to stop there, that would be what you say is a bad thing not respecting democracy?
So a bit like what the Brexies are trying to convince us is a good thing?
Let you argument play out on what has actually happened - you’ll get there eventually. 😉
[quote=thecaptain ]Alternatively you or any brexiteer could come up with a credible plan that doesn't complete **** the country. You've had a year and a half so far, so what's keeping you?
too busy trolling on here
you’ll get there eventually.
If you travel enough you will get everywhere, you might not know you were there though. If only the government was being competent and showing us a true vision of the future that didn't resemble the outtakes from yes minister and the thick of it.
Capitan, I can’t speak for the Brexshiteers and I have yet to see any analysis that suggests the country will be ****ed. In fact as the BoE noted the economy has been surprisingly resilient. Inconvenient facts
Of course the biggest threat remains uncertainty and given that the EU refuse to negotiate properly then that will continue to the detriment of us all. Oddly, remoaners support their tactics despite the fact that this is one area where you can point to actual causality of harm.
Odd world. Anyone would think people are “too thick to understand” 😉
More likely too busy suppressing debate.
Oddly, remoaners support their tactics despite the fact that this is one area where you can point to actual causality of harm.
Well we could all wave flags, chant 2 world wars, one world cup, go on about trafalgar and Nelson but it wouldn't make a difference. The eu is in the strongest position, it's exactly what we said during the vote, they hold the cards. No point getting annoyed about facts. Hopefully more people are seeing what a shit deal the UK is heading for.
More sensibly we could negotiate the terms under which the Uk would continue to have access to the single market and vice versa. Important issues from which the rest follows.
But that would be far too sensible and grown up
Nope the important issues for the senior partner were laid out and agreed to by the UK. What does that tell you about the UK position. Given the shit progress so far I'd guess the eu were right to tackle the hard stuff first. Patriotism is not very useful here, logic and reasoning is.
What if they had a referendum every year - "do you want to increase NHS funding?"
That would go quite firmly into the "advisory" category.
What if they had a referendum every year - "do you want to increase NHS funding?"
We already get them every four years so not that big a leap.
I think the real comparison here is the McGregor mayweather fight, uk is the plucky McGregor who really knows he is only doing it for the money, the UK general public are the ones who gave up jobs and flew to Vegas to see the fight of the century and bet the house on the wrong guy.. The eu just wander around and win with very little real effort. Like everyone predicted.
As was the follow up where people kept saying of the rules were different it would have been different. Well don't agree to the rules that mean you lose.
your views don't matter, just do as you're told
How about if, instead, we…
kept on having votes
[b]?[/b]
Oh, hang on, nearly missed the line that will be quoted at the 2017 troll of the year awards…
More likely too busy suppressing debate.
Do we hell.
We get to change government, we don't get to tell them government what to do. Huge difference.
But the “too thick to be counted” narrative is another tradition of those who seek to depress democracy to suit their own ends.
Hah, not in the least.
I've given this plenty of thought. I have been fair to both sides of the aisle in the past, I am perfectly able to appreciate the concept of small government and moderate Toryism even if I am whole heartedly opposed to it, for example.
I do not think Brexit represents a good example of democracy. We have representative democracy for exactly this reason - because the people simply don't know enough. It's very obvious that the electorate did not act rationally. How can you claim otherwise?
And if the electorate do not act rationally how can they make specific decisions?
Democracy is not what you think it is.
EU refuse to negotiate properly
It's rather difficult to negotiate when you don't know whose in charge of the other side, nor what they they actually want.
To repeatedly blame the delay on the EU is fatuous in the extreme......
In fact as the BoE noted the economy has been surprisingly resilient.
Yes, few people expected the strong growth in the Eurozone this year, or our increasing exports to the EU.
Inconvenient facts
Indeed.
Obviously. What you are suggesting is the antithesis of democracy. Starting with understanding what “demos” means would be a start.
You may be confusing representative government as one form of democracy with democracy itself. Whether deliberately or not is unclear. Either that or just a typo.
I suggest you read the word democracy in a dictionary - unsurprisingly it no longer means exactly what it meant in ancient Greek
democracy
d??m?kr?si/Submit
noun
a system of government by the whole population or all the eligible members of a state, typically through elected representatives.
