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so labour will be whipping for Norwayish common market 2.0*, & therefore presumably not 2nd ref
(*tho it still doesnt get round NI border problem?)
Just a pity 52% of the electorate couldn’t see what was staring them
52% of the electorate wouldn't notice a bus bearing down on them.
Charles I was all like:
Democracy is the power of equal votes for unequal mind
& therefore presumably not 2nd ref
It isnt clear but it doesnt rule them out supporting both. I suspect it will be the case since the stated plan is to avoid no deal or Mays option so best to keep all options open.
so labour will be whipping for Norwayish common market 2.0
But CM2.0 includes FoM?
But CM2.0 includes FoM?
Yes.
Yes
That can’t possibly be true. DannyH and his ilk have repeatedly told us that labour are a racist party which hates immigrants.
CM 2.0 doesnt fix the NI border though?
CM 2.0 doesnt fix the NI border though?
Apparently it would since thats the addon on top of the Norway model to allow that to work. Whether it will actually pass all the relevant parties is an different matter though.
And it doesn't seem to feature in what the EU says is acceptable...
(appreciate the whole "different red lines gets a different EU response thing... )
Edit: sorry, not really thinking - this is all about proposing new red lines, yes?
the daily fail website are going with "Anarchy in the UK" at the top of the page.
CM 2.0 doesnt fix the NI border though?
Yes it does. CM2.0 includes FoM but allows exceptions in unusual circumstances. It also exempts us from CAP and CFP. Seems to me a perfectly sensible and acceptable solution, and is the soft brexit we were all talking about straight after the referendum.
So can the usual suspects please now stop all talk of labour/Corbyn/whoever else being hard brexiters who support the ERG? Some of us said all along that labour would back a soft brexit solution, but it would take time and patience to get there due to obvious political issues they have had to deal with. Seems to me that's exactly what is now happening.
All well and good, however Norway won't let us in to the agreement that they have with the rest of the Union, and Norway still requires border controls for goods. It's not a solution, as it's not agreed with the EU, and if it were, it would be a shit one.
I assume we've asked Norway if we can join EFTA for CM 2.0 before we start putting forward all these 'alternative' plans - I distinctly remember them not being keen...
Will the gammons now be clamouring for a second referendum?
the daily fail website are going with “Anarchy in the UK” at the top of the page.
I know what I want, but don't know how to get it?
I don't see why we need to ask Norway . If the EU want to deal with us in the same way as them that's the EU's perogative.
so labour will be whipping for Norwayish common market 2.0
You go for a ride, and the position swaps 180%. If true, very welcome.
it would be a shit one
If you mean vastly inferior to our current position, then yes. If it's instead of the current WA, or the WA + a CU in PD, or no deal… it's better for most people than any of those. Still not was promised and voted for in 2016, so the argument for a referendum should be unchanged really.
presumably not 2nd ref
Why?
Why?
Given that CM2.0 is basically remain, I'm not sure the electorate would understand or accept a new referendum without a no deal option. What's the point in having an expensive and disruptive public vote on remain vs almost remain?
Given that CM2.0 is basically remain,
erm, it really, really isnt
Given that CM2.0 is basically remain,
Sigh - it is a form of Brexit. Once we have "one way of leaving" decided by parliament, why shouldn't the public decide whether they prefer it to keeping our current EU arrangements?
Sigh – it is a form of Brexit.
Of course it is, but it's the least damaging and disruptive form of it. If this is passed then people in the UK and Europe will see almost no change to their daily lives as a result of it. It's also the only option that preserves most of the status quo whilst still satisfying the referendum result. I know you don't think that's important but a huge number of people will disagree.
I can see why it is Brexit option that you prefer (so do I)… but why does that mean that everyone else shouldn't get a say over choosing it over EU membership? This whole "referendum on your Brexit option but not mine" smells so off. How does that win the trust of anyone?
If this is passed then people in the UK and Europe will see almost no change to their daily lives as a result of i
unless they live in NI....
How does that win the trust of anyone?
For the simple reason that it honours the original referendum result. Even then many, perhaps most, leavers still won't accept it, but it at least provides the opportunity to claim that the result has been enacted. A poorly turned out 2nd vote (as a result of a boycott by original leave voters) would do more damage than good I think by casting doubt on the outcome.
Nice to see the support of what Yanis Varoufakis said last week coming home to roost.
Basically do this; and then figure it out long-term. Without the clock ticking.
unless they live in NI….
It would help a lot in NI compared to other Brexit options. A sensible compromise that shouldn't have been whipped against in the past. I said years ago that putting SM+CU against EU membership to the people in a referendum would probably result in us leaving in that fashion… lots of Remain voters back then would have backed that.
For the simple reason that it honours the original referendum result.
Says who? I expect millions would argue that it does not. But anyway, the 2016 referendum has set policy for government, parliament, business and individuals for years now. Why does that preclude the country having a vote on the straight choice of one form of Brexit chosen by parliament against keeping what we have?
My MD was over from Belgium the other week, and couldn’t understand why our “educated politicians” were in favour of a Norway arrangement, as he said you still pay into Europe, you have FoM, but no say in what happens.
Joanna Cherry amendment to stop no deal… Labour whipping to abstain…
It would help a lot in NI compared to other Brexit options.
Cm 2.0 doesn't include a custom union tho, does it?
CM2 has got potential to be a very close one. Assuming SNP and those few (35ish) Tories go for it, it might just clinch.
Lots abstained last time...
) would do more damage than good I think by casting doubt on the outcome
doesn’t include a custom union
No, there is a seperate vote on that. Ken Clarke has just explained why they are not mutually exclusive, can be rolled in together if both get support, and is voting for both.
Get your lols ready…
https://twitter.com/samcoatestimes/status/1112746689960513539?s=21
Richard Drax happy to change his mind on the subject since Friday, yet is against the commoners having a change of mind 3 years later.
Are these people too stupid to see the hypocrisy in all this, or do they simply not care?
I’m not sure the electorate would understand or accept a new referendum without a no deal option.
So the electorate should only vote on things they understand? If only we'd established that three years ago.
I know you don’t think that’s important but a huge number of people will disagree.
So what?
Is UK politics really now reduced to "who can shout the loudest?" Does that sound like a representative democracy to you?
Moreover, does it sound like the sort of thing we should be giving in to? At the risk of playing a brexie card: isn't it exactly why we had two world wars, to quell the rise of fascism?
I'm getting increasingly tired of this "what people want" propaganda. It's long past high time that everyone who's been banging on about sovereignty since 2016 actually found out what it meant.
So what?
Because whatever happens at the end of this infernal process, people still have to live together. A soft brexit is a sensible and practical compromise which doesn't make things worse. Any other option will only divide people further. We need to move on and minimise the damage from this nightmare, and the CM2 option is IMO the best/only way to do that.
A soft brexit is a sensible
No it isn't.
and practical
No it's not.
compromise
Not that either.
which doesn’t make things worse.
Now you're just being silly.
Not that either.
If you think this can be sorted by a no compromise, remain at all costs strategy then you're as deluded as the unicorn brigade. This will not be resolved by one side pursuing all-out victory.
I've explained this multiple times now, but I can do it once more with feeling if you really need me to.
Come what may, it's a binary decision, we either leave or we don't. Compromising on a yes / no question might prove a tad challenging.
Come what may, it’s a binary decision
Totally disagree. As many others have said, the problem with the referendum was that people were never told what leaving really meant. Instead they were misled with a mixture of lies and exaggeration. Treating this as a binary issue is exactly what has got us into this mess. The only way to get out is to acknowledge that binary positions aren't going to work and seek a compromise. That's exactly what CM2 does.
It is a compromise of sorts. What if most people don't want it though? What if the country would rather keep EU membership than accept this compromise? And should we add Customs Union to it? That kind of multithreaded thinking is what's going on right now by people elected to do so… if they'd insisted on doing this before triggering A50 we might have been in a slightly different position now.
Of course you could argue that if MPs think CM2.0 & CU puts the country in a worse position than EU membership, they should vote against both, and for both revoking and a referendum on any deal. It's their remit to do what they think is best. Glad I'm not an MP.
The question posed to "the people" was a binary decision. And yes, of course it's an insanely complex issue which was utterly stupid to frame as a tick box on a ballot paper in the first place. But that's what happened and so here we are.
Leaving - in any form - goes against the vote of Remain and similarly remaining - in any form - goes against the vote of Leave. If we're holding up the referendum as being Moses' tablets in this shitshow then that's all we have to work with. If you care what people think about the actual form brexit should take (or not) then you're going to need another referendum.
I've said repeatedly what the sensible compromise could look like.
CM2 delivers the referendum result literally, in that we leave the EU, but it doesn't deliver much of what (in my understanding) the people who voted to leave wanted. Nor does it retain much of what I value as a remainer, such as having an influence in Europe, setting standards, participating in European projects like nuclear fusion and Galileo, and just being there. It's probably too late now, but if the UK had been fully engaged in the EU, we'd be a relatively big cog driving a relatively big wheel, while CM2 makes us a cog driven by that wheel. We may be the 5th biggest economy (likely to be 8th quite soon) but nowhere near China and USA.
Putting that another way,
If we treat the referendum as the binary question it was, then there is literally no compromise. You cannot sensibly toss a coin and call "edge!" It's an impossible question.
If however we treat it as the complex issue it is with multiple options - as you rightly suggest - then we have to look at why people voted the way they did, we have to analyse what they thought their vote would bring. Which then raises two questions:
1) Can we leave whilst giving most remain voters what they wanted?
2) Can we remain whilst giving most leave voters what they wanted?
And given that the answer to these questions are "no" and "yes" respectively, that's your compromise right there.
I don’t see why we need to ask Norway
Because CM 2.0 means joining EFTA.
is waiting for the public outcry when people who didnt think this would affect them .....penny drops
Can we leave whilst giving most remain voters what they wanted?
You assume remain voters are primarily concerned with EU membership and having EU citizenship as a matter of fact, rather than the benefits it brings. I think many, if not most, are only bothered about the benefits and couldn't care less about the citizenship aspect. If that's the case then the answer to your first question is yes.
Also I think there are more leave voters who want to be out as a matter of principle than the opposite. In that case then it's more likely that the answer to the second question is no.
If there is no compromise on either side what do you think will happen? I've asked before, but do we have to wait til we're putting up barricades and forming militias?
Maybe we need a new online poll.
" I voted leave because i believed the lies that were told, but now I would like to remain"
See if that gets a few million votes , then the MP's can disregard that poll as well
Not sure how you could police it though ..d'oh
Well I've said this before many times and so has Cougar. The pragmatic approach of a sensible government would be remain in the EU and attempt reform from within, rather than try to create a completely new relationship from scratch.
I suppose you could suggest if the necessary reform is not forthcoming, leave at that point. Of course this means figuring out exactly what issues are vexing leavers.
Race would be right up there . All those bloomin foriegn types coming over taking all our jobs etc
£350mill a week
MEP wages and pensions has to be contensious
Multi tiered governance .-Euro courts etc
Although I totally agree with Slowoldman, we needed to be in to exert change from within.
The pragmatic approach of a sensible government would be remain in the EU and attempt reform from within
Pre-referendum it was, but then Cameron went and opened Pandora's box. The pragmatic approach now is to seek the least damaging solution for both sides before they become completely entrenched. We don't have to like it, we just have to be able to live with it. The thing I fear most is that if we don't find ways now to heal the wounds, this could spiral out of control. It may sound far fetched, but those barricades may appear sooner than we think.
From my discussions with both leaver types and remainer types, I'd say it is too late. They are already entrenched.
A lot of the leave folks have been so whipped up by the "no deal is better than a bad deal, democracy is dead" type rhetoric that only a no deal Brexit is acceptable to them.
A lot of the remain folks are so hacked off that the referendum process was flawed and of the behaviour of the Tory hard liners continuing to push for more and more, that they are less willing to accept any kind of compromise than they were straight after the referendum.
I think that unfortunately we are now in the situation where a half and half compromise will please very few. In which case it is all the way in or all the way out as at least approximately 50% of people will then be happy. (until the negatives of either approach kick in)
Just starting BBC2 Laura Kooenunesssssbeurg's doc on Brexit.
Looks better than just journo talking heads.
We're talking shallow depth of field.
Does it really matter what they vote for tonight?
May will find a way of not implementing it anyway
The compromises that don't result in economic obliteration don't tick any boxes for the Brexit crowd.
But please enlighten us to your plan when you get back from rainbowfairyunicorn land....
They are already entrenched.
I'm not so sure. Those who feel strongly and follow it are more likely to be entrenched, especially on the leave side. Outside the bubble though there are huge numbers of people who just want it to be over one way or the other. These are the people who will make a compromise possible.
I agree in that there are plenty of people who want it over...
But....
1) Most folk want it over as long as they get their Brexit (and there are many different types)
2) Most of these folk also don't understand that whatever we choose, it is far from over. This is just the start... this is going to poison everything for decades.
I've come to the pretty depressing conclusion that we are actually screwed which ever way now. I can't see any way out that isn't going to result is some serious carnage.
I’m not so sure. Those who feel strongly and follow it are more likely to be entrenched, especially on the leave side. Outside the bubble though there are huge numbers of people who just want it to be over one way or the other. These are the people who will make a compromise possible.
You mean the thickies that are just apathetic? Who the **** cares about them? They won't riot if Brexit doesn't go ahead, they'll just riot if KFC doesn't get enough chicken.
Call it off, buy in rubber bullets, CS gas and water cannons. Treat the violent brexiteers like we did the Irish, charge them with horses, release police dogs at them and have the police shoot them with rubber and real bullets if needed. Job done, sort it out the old fashioned way.
We need a remainer like this
All hail Tony Blair! 😀
I’m not so sure. Those who feel strongly and follow it are more likely to be entrenched, especially on the leave side. Outside the bubble though there are huge numbers of people who just want it to be over one way or the other. These are the people who will make a compromise possible.
How do propose we find out? Should we ask them?
delivering brexit has become nothing more than a drum to beat, most shouting about know very little, can't tell us what it delivers or agree what it is yet me must still deliver it or the world will end. You know I'm willing to take the chance of the end of the world.
Many interesting views ... hmmmm 🤔
And all voted down.
The DUP voted against everything.
Great.
Customs Union - Lost by 3
Common Market 2.0 - Lost by 21
Public vote - Lost by 12
Revoke if no deal - Lost by 101
What a bunch of blithering idiots.
Very solid numbers for the CU, SM/CU and Conf Vote, all more popular than May's deal as options.
She is running out of options, I think the SNP just declared to stay in the EU via the other way...
Another one left the Tories
The DUP voted against everything.
Next time I reckon the ayes/nays should be reversed. Their default "NO" will carry the day.
That or offer them some cash for ash.
On a related subject currently a challenge going on against the Electoral commission for not investigating whether the DUP coordinated illegally with the leave campaign around spending on ads.
Inching closer to having to call the whole thing off.
The DUP voted against everything.
Great.
and Cabinet were not allowed to vote.
Most number of "for" votes was for a confirmatory referendum. When we need to tell the EU why we need a long delay, then this may well be nudging past a general election now. Because, with revoke being dismissed, a long extension is now happening. Once "we've" decided on our reason. Looking like a referendum on the current withdrawal agreement to me… with multiple contradictory ideas about what the political declaration and post transition relationship might/could be. We've learned nothing.
Everything kicked out. This is actually good.
May can drag her dead horse deal back to vote (if it's allowed) for a fourth time. Or is it third? I've lost count.
As I keep saying, this has to come down to a binary choice between no deal or revoke a50.
That will sort the wheat from the chaff. Anything else is, and always has been a load of bollix.
Local arsehole MP went all out for the no again.
you do feel sorry for someone, that as the house basically shuffles off to the bar or bed, has to now start a debate about landfill sites. Truly after the lord mayor's show.......
Got a link for the vote checker?
As I keep saying, this has to come down to a binary choice between no deal or revoke a50.
Then it's no deal.
Labour whipped to abstain on that straight choice tonight.
Tory no deal proponents have the numbers. Why did Labour abstain? If I suggest a reason the Corbyn believers will offer two pages on me being a liar, or a Tory, or something.
Anyway, it must be clear that this process should have happened before giving the PM the power to trigger A50. And why did Labour support triggering A50 without parliament supplying direction? Again, I'm not going to suggest a reason, to save us the bore off from Corbyn believers.
So why did the SNP abstain from the Customs Union vote?
kelvin
Subscriber
As I keep saying, this has to come down to a binary choice between no deal or revoke a50.Then it’s no deal.
Labour whipped to abstain on that straight choice tonight.
It's all a game of brinkmanship though, we aren't there yet. Mays last play to come next.
The Clarke proposal has the least amount of labour rebels voting against it and the most tory rebels voting for it.
So unity government headed by Clarke or No Deal then?
So why did the SNP abstain from the Customs Union vote?
They want FoM. They believe Scotland needs it. Wrap CM2.0 & CU into one amendment, and they'll back it. That might well happen at the next stage.
Why did Labour abstain?
It's Labour policy to be frozen like a rabbit in the headlights.
Keep up at the back lol!