If we have a democratic process then the thing to do is to campaign to stay in the EU to fight to convince parliament to do what is right for the county as a whole . It is anti democratic to say the nation should be bound by a plebiscite which scraped an exceeding narrow victory,when the knowledge and facts have now changed.
Has anyone seen any study that says Brexit will be good for UK manufacturing or UK jobs?
It seems to me though that a lot of what THM is posting is not nonsense. It might be opinion, and therefore unverifiable, but to dismiss it because it doesn't match your opinion is wrong (cf youknowwho where virtually everything was verifiably wrong 😉 ).
There does come a point where to agree to differ opinions is fine and to keep shouting ever louder that he must be wrong does become a bit stupid, that's not adult debate; equally I do agree that some of THM's responses to this continued barrage have deliberately (to me) verged on to a sort of trolling - not entirely true because I think and respect his position is what he believes, and to be true trolling to me you'll take the contrary line for the sake of the response - but there should have come a point where both sides should just accept there is a different opinion and leave it there.
FWIW1. Pro membership of EU, anti €
2. Pro ALL four freedoms
3. Pro democracy and respecting its process and outcomes
The only bit I still don't get is (3) - democracy didn't end in June last year and when the decision was as close and as is now being found out to be, as daft as it is, I just don't understand why if (1) and (2) are core beliefs then I don't get THM's position on (3) that this harmful decision must be respected above all good sense. But that's opinion again (on both sides)
I block his posts directly but see some indirectly because they are quoted. What I see is assertions claimed as fact that are simply untrue - like the assertion we are negotiating a free trade agreement - simply factually incorrect as an example.theotherjonv - MemberIt seems to me though that a lot of what THM is posting is not nonsense.
He states things as fact that are not opinions - just simply wrong. as in the above example
I am sure people who see more of his posts could provide many more examples
FFS!!
Anyway TOJ good points. On (3) yes room for debate for sure. The swing factor for me is if a government holds a referendum with the clear directive that they will honour the result whatever the outcome, then that is what they must do. Others may disagreed and hide behind the advisory BS but that is disingenuous IMO
But frankly that doesn’t matter. I am merely being pragmatic. Do I want Brexshit? No. Do I expect to happen? Yes. So hence my focus is on dealing with the likely outcome not revisiting a lost argument with falsehoods and moaning
So as a priority, we will pursue s bold and ambitious FTA with the EU. This agreement should allow for the freest possible trade in G&S between Britain and the EU’s member states. It should give British companies the maximum freedom to trade and operate within European markets - and let European businesses do the same in Britain
TM 17 January 2017
Quacks like a duck....
You decide
The swing factor for me is if a government holds a referendum with the clear directive that they will honour the result whatever the outcome, then that is what they must do. Others may disagreed and hide behind the advisory BS but that is disingenuous IMO
Even you accept it was not legally binding but thanks for saying the facts are disingenuous.
Your view is perfectly fine so is the view that we can have another vote if we discover that that leaving wont deliver what was promised
Imagine [ thought experiment time] If for example there was a point where we knew say 85% of people opposed Brexit would you just ignore this because we have had a vote ?
Aye no one could accuse you of falsehood or moaning now could they. IF you really want a better toned debate stop typing things like that [ which is just politely ,or within STW rules] calling folk liars - not that you bully obvs 🙄I am merely being pragmatic. Do I want Brexshit? No. Do I expect to happen? Yes. So hence my focus is on dealing with the likely outcome not revisiting a lost argument with falsehoods and moaning
You are free to put pragmatism above your beliefs just like others are free to have principles. See we can all do the childish pathetic attacks on others views - you are setting the tone others are merely coping
So hence my focus is on dealing with the likely outcome
I guess you're fortunate that you're in a position to be able to deal with likely outcome.
As I've asked before, how exactly should the average man in the street prepare for Brexit?
(Take the bill, roll it tightly and grease it lightly excepted)
But frankly that doesn’t matter. I am merely being pragmatic. Do I want Brexshit? No. Do I expect to happen? Yes. So hence my focus is on dealing with the likely outcome not revisiting a lost argument with falsehoods and moaning
It was going so well until you got to the third word from the end. Most of it is not false, whereas a lot of what you claim is either self contradictory (e.g. your two stances on the three intractable problems) or downright untrue e.g. that we are currently negotiating an FTA. You'd do well to better separate your often ill-informed opinion from fact.
So as a priority, we will pursue s bold and ambitious FTA with the EU.
Well, of course we will "pursue" that. What else would we pursue? What else would she [u]profess[/u] to pursue? The question is, if (if) that is indeed the priority - and not the reduction in forriners, reversion to imperial measures or whatever - what will we be willing to give to get there, and will that be acceptable to a) the Tory brexiteers, and b) the clot in the street who voted for brexit?
Well, of course we will "pursue" that. What else would we pursue
Good question. No need to ask me. Ask those who deny this.
More Remoaning reporting from the telegraph.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/11/05/britain-would-booming-wasnt-brexit-mark-carney-says/?WT.mc_id=tmgoff_fetch_&utm_source=social&utm_medium=fetch&utm_campaign=qne
Ask those who deny this.
Nobody is denying it, it's just that you, THM, change the verb to change the meaning to say talks on a FTA are happening now (which the EU say they are not) or wil be happening shortly (but you are unable to provide any link to demostrate this).
You misquote other posters and you misquote stuff from the media and official organisations which (IMO) is why you never link it.
Well given we already have a FTA as members of the EU then don’t leave, job done. 😉
I think THM’s 3 premises are valid and I think that is his position.
It’s not far from mine.
Where we differ is the implicit assumption he has that the people are beholden to a democratic vote. I would contend that democracy is beholden to the people.
And on that basis, no argument is ever fully over because people change their minds - indeed as we showed yesterday it appears they are changing their minds on Brexit (THM - you had polls that showed something else I think but you haven’t posted them yet).
Overall though, I don’t think he’s a closet leaver, just someone who needs clarity and preferably stability for his job. And at some level don’t we all.
PS - I’m still up for that one pint bet.
Make it 5 I’m thirsty and you are buying!!!
At London prices - no way !
Oooh. Brave words, brave words
Unfair advantage as I know the answer. Spent months going through all scenarios internally, with lawyers and clients. So confident on who is paying 😉
But if, despite my warning, you still want to lose the bet, I’m still thirsty!! 😉
I'll try again.
As I've asked before, how exactly should the average man in the street prepare for Brexit?
Buy gold, sobriety.
[quote=sobriety ]I'll try again.
As I've asked before, how exactly should the average man in the street prepare for Brexit?
lube up. we're gonna get ****ed...
Not a lot I can do professionally bar try to protect my patients from the staff shortages coming from the loss of EU nurses.
Avoid the papers, news and this thread
At the end of the day, there will be a messy compromise/deal and lengthy transition.
The UK is already slowing down and this will accelerate and probably depend the slowdown. So prepare for that scenario as you would do normally.
Other than that stay calm and carry on.
Or alternatively enjoy reading remoaner hyperbole and exaggeration as it’s much more fun than the dull reality.
Or alternatively enjoy reading remoaner hyperbole and exaggeration as it’s much more fun than the dull reality.
Somewhere in almost every post you write is cheap, pathetic provocation, THM. If you are going to troll at least put a little thought into it.
Is it relentlessly troll those you used to agree with ?how exactly should the average man in the street prepare for Brexit?
The UK is already slowing down and this will accelerate and probably depend the slowdown. So prepare for that scenario as you would do normally.Other than that stay calm and carry on.
You are just talking about business impacts - those whose family situations are impacted, or who are concerned for the future of NI, etc etc may find it less easy to adopt a relaxed attitude.
"At the end of the day, there will be a messy compromise/deal and lengthy transition." and do the reports you have read suggest that process will put the UKs manufacturing industries and employment markets in a better or worse position than they would be if we remained in Europe?
mikewsmith - MemberWas the bullying when we kept asking for proof and facts etc?
No.
To quote someone who ceased posting well within the first one hundred pages;
"This thread brings out the worst in people".
And what about a UK citizen, living and working in EU, with wife and child who do not have UK citizenship. Just cross fingers and hope for the best in a couple of years?
(real example BTW)
thanks for keep returning to have a pop - is this part of the proof ?"This thread brings out the worst in people".
I think your real example would find it very easy to get citizenship for his adopted land, thecaptain. And he'd have pretty much no chance of getting British citizenship for his wife and child given the criteria published by the British government. He would be better to forget about ever returning to the UK other than on holiday.
Not much comfort here, I'm afraid cap'n
To quote someone who ceased posting well within the first one hundred pages;
Given up after 100 pages? Who cares what a quitter thinks ?!! 🙂
😆
"At the end of the day, there will be a messy compromise/deal and lengthy transition."
Less than a 50 / 50 chance of any deal. Of course that includes transition according to EU officials
We have yet to see any significant movement on the 3 main issues in the year that this farce has been going on. 9 months left to sort out the 3 initial issues then everything else?
sobriety - Member
I'll try again.As I've asked before, how exactly should the average man in the street prepare for Brexit?
Well I’m tempted to say turn to drink but that wouldn’t be helpful.
Pay off debts and don’t spend what you can get away without spending I’d say.
Not sure if saving is actually a good idea (note: is rarely bad) as I have no idea what interest and currency are going to do. As I understand it, a fair amount of money is being invested overseas, hence why (as we discussed ages ago didn’t we THM) the FTSE100 rises as the pound falls, but that’s not entirely new and you may be too late.
Oh and be educated, qualified in a variety of things, experienced with transferable skills, several passports and multiple languages.
And work in an industry not subject to automation.
If you can do that you’ll be fine.
Probably.
Thanks guys, I was slightly pressing THM for an answer, as he sometimes seems a little focussed on his specific area rather than the bigger picture, and don't we all from time to time! Mostly to see if he had any ideas over and above the broadly sensible ones that a mere engineer would work out for themselves;-)
In answer to IGM, debts are being paid, savings will commence after that, I'm a degree educated engineer in an insustry with global employment opportunites, eligable for another passport, speak a couple of other languages really badly, but would probably be able to get back into them if I had to, and companies like the one I work for are responsible for the automation (and also paid mostly in foreign currency for our work). So I'll probably be alright jack. I just wish I didn't have to be.
what should the average man in the street do? go on the Australian Canadian or New Zealand immigration websites and try and get qualifications that score high points pay off as much debt as possible to maximise your emigration capital.
what should the average man in the street do?
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/nov/10/fed-up-brexit-britain-come-work-denmark-eu
You are just talking about business impacts - those whose family situations are impacted, or who are concerned for the future of NI, etc etc may find it less easy to adopt a relaxed attitude.
Incorrect but then correct
Ditto UK nationals face the legal limbo of what does third country citizenship’s involve/imply. And some of their countrymen and women couldnt give a toss about them and would be happy for the government to ignore their responsibility and make silly unilateral declarations. With friends like these....
Crankb- worse, said so all along
Oh and be educated, qualified in a variety of things, experienced with transferable skills, several passports and multiple languages. And work in an industry not subject to automation.
That’s true Brexshit or no Brexshit. Lack those and your screwed either way.
Sobriety - was going out for lunch so didn’t answer properly. There is no one answer clearly. But Mr & Mrs Average are always screwed.
Fantastic link Leku. 😀
THM - I think the premium on passports and languages just rose. Fundamentally countries are bad for people - in some respects.
Avoid the papers, news and this threadAt the end of the day, there will be a messy compromise/deal and lengthy transition.
The UK is already slowing down and this will accelerate and probably depend the slowdown. So prepare for that scenario as you would do normally.
Other than that stay calm and carry on.
Or alternatively enjoy reading remoaner hyperbole and exaggeration as it’s much more fun than the dull reality.
All that's fine and dandy for the well educated elite. What about everyone else?
And this brings me to the crux of my irks with THM on this thread. Several of us on here fall into that first category, yet most of us see the real hurt Brexit will bring to an awful lot of people. THM on the other hand, like most of his Tory brethren stopped worrying about it the moment he worked out he'd be alright, Jack.
That's an attitude that deserves to be called out, and I won't apologise for doing so.
"This thread brings out the worst in people
Not really the same behaviour goes on on lots of threads, just different targets. Chewkw and geetee are copping a lot of it recently from same people. Jive has made a reentrance but might be getting off lightly.
X-post there’s old zokes proving you right. So ignore the above, you were correct
Zokes - there is another view that says the very people who most heavily voted for Brexit are the same that will bear the brunt on the economic fall out.
Not saying I subscribe to that view but I can see how one might.
Fundamentally countries are bad for people - in some respects
Not sure about that. Combine their benefits with FoM and things look good.
I hope my kids travel and work overseas at some point.
They may we’ll have lots of EU forms to fill in if some folks’ wishes come true.
