Could Labour have started with opposing or delaying Art 50?
So you expected labour to commit electoral suicide for no end result, given they would have lost the vote even if they had opposed it?
What’s the point of the extension proposed by the EU? Its conditional on the WA getting voted through next week, which if it does then why do we need an extension?
Read the last few pages. The WA needed to be approved by parliament LAST YEAR to have time to ratify and prepare for it to be put in place. May delayed… parliament voted against… clock has been run down… months are needed after (if) parliament does decide to back the WA…
Why do you hold labour responsible when they are not in government? This is the tories mess and no one else’s. Labour have done everything that could be expected of them
Providing meaningful opposition for the last couple of years would be a start...
The fact that Tom Watson and Kier Starmer are at odds with Corbyn over pretty much everything, etc...
"The Tories have more MPs than Labour, what's the point in opposing their Brexit?"
If you are making this point, or something like it, yet again, then you're just wasting space.
The short extension is simply to give May a bit of time to get the rest of the legislation needed into place - and will only be granted if the WA passes this week. Its a courtesy nothing more.
Its clear the EU would grant ( reluctantly) a long extension if there is a major change in circumstances
For those having a go at labour, here's remainer hero Anna Soubry's brexit voting record. She seemed to have something of brain freeze after initially voting to stay in the EU in 2016.
https://www.theyworkforyou.com/mp/24772/anna_soubry/broxtowe/divisions?policy=6761
Less than about 18 000 000 signatures from people entitled to vote and it proves nothing to me.
No point making any kind of protest then?
Pieface
Member
What’s the point of the extension proposed by the EU? Its conditional on the WA getting voted through next week, which if it does then why do we need an extension?
In theory, it's because even if the vote goes through, there's not enough time to actually act on it before the date. In practice, the vote isn't going to pass and I think everyone knows that including May so, who knows
Providing meaningful opposition for the last couple of years would be a start…
Thank you for proving my point. Care to explain what 'meaningful opposition' actually means?
For those getting excited about the petition, at what point do you think it becomes significant?
I think it's already significant. Not directly - I doubt it'll make any difference to anything at all if we're being realistic - but as a symbolic gesture it's huge. It's a bit like going on a protest march.
Care to explain what ‘meaningful opposition’ actually means?
Well, there's three years of ****ing running commentary on that… go back in the thread and read it, instead of trolling.
dazh - you are fighting a loosing battle on this. I have asked the same question many times and got one partial answer from Edukator. None from the rest of the Corbyn haters
with a badly split party and the press all baying for brexit there really has been very little labour can do
100 mps threatened to vote against a second ref for example.
Well who’d have thunk it? Looks like the EU 27 are all singing from the same hymn sheet
Just you wait, the CEO of BMW will be knocking on Merkel's door any minute now, then it'll all fall into place.
very little labour can do
They've done lots. It might not chime with what their members and voters want, but hey, that's the new ultra democratic party that Corbyn promised, or something.
By not actvely encouraging and promoting Brexit, Dazh. Corbyn called for immediate use of Art. 50 and that set the tone. Labour have never launched an anti-Brexit campaign which as the biggest opposition party is what they should have done if they in anyway opposed Brexit. They didn't, and recent voting by Labour MPs tells me there is no anti-Brexit whip chez Labour. They want a Labour-flavour Brexit but it will still be Brexit.
You were one of the first people on this forum to state you'd vote remain, but since then you've been something of a Brexit apologist and I think your political allegiences have a lot to do with that. If you really don't want Brexit you need to junk your support for any party/individual that isn't actively opposing Brexit and perhaps get out on the streets.
dazh – you are fighting a loosing battle on this. I have asked the same question many times and got one partial answer from Edukator. None from the rest of the Corbyn haters
You have got many answers, including exact options where the labour party leadership could have whipped against rather than for brexit legislation. You are as shameless and deceitful as our political leaders in constantly lying that you have got no answers. You may not like the answers, but they are a matter of fact, and have been repeated many times.
Website is down again.
Less than about 18 000 000 signatures from people entitled to vote and it proves nothing to me.
100% nearly 14mil have already signed an earlier petition which said as much.
at what point do you think it becomes significant?
Sub 24hr and 1mil+ 'signatures'. That has to say something.
here’s remainer hero Anna Soubry’s brexit voting record.
Shhh. Next you will be mentioning inconvenient details like the leader, sorry spokesman, of the Funny Tinge party said he was against a second referendum and that we would be leaving.
MSP - care to link to one? I have seen platitudes and generalities but nothing specific or possible.
Could Labour have started with opposing or delaying Art 50?
So you expected labour to commit electoral suicide for no end result, given they would have lost the vote even if they had opposed it?
Well he did seem rather keen to support the tory agenda. Did he question whether it was correct to invoke Art50 before anyone had any idea what Brexit the tories wanted? No deal? Brino? Hard Brexit? Or did he simply empower the hateful tories and ERG?
End result? It's starting to look like we'll be leaving with No Deal.
Tingers were formed based on several MPs walking away and throwing their teddies out
100% nearly 14mil have already signed an earlier petition which said as much
platitudes and generalities
Funny Tinge party
+ [edit for extra lovely example]
self-immolating virtue signalling by labour MPs
I miss the right wing trolls.
MSP – care to link to one? I have seen platitudes and generalities but nothing specific or possible.
I have personally answered before, as have many others, then 10 pages later you play the same troll game, just grow, and stop trying to wind people up.
Brexit apologist
Don't be daft. I'm as anti-brexit now as I was 3 years ago. If I'm an apologist for anything it's cold hard reality, rather than the fantasy that brexit could have been stopped with some pointless and self-immolating virtue signalling by labour MPs.
I think it’s already significant. Not directly – I doubt it’ll make any difference to anything at all if we’re being realistic – but as a symbolic gesture it’s huge. It’s a bit like going on a protest march.
It's bit like turning your computer on rather than a march.
Don’t be daft. I’m as anti-brexit now as I was 3 years ago. If I’m an apologist for anything it’s cold hard reality, rather than the fantasy that brexit could have been stopped with some pointless and self-immolating virtue signalling by labour MPs.
With all due respect: From the outside looking in, there's either a disparity between your words and your actions, or between what you think you're saying and what you're actually saying.
Every political party is looking out for themselves, not the Country. The Tories needed to kill UKIP and solidify their base. Brexit and GREAT Britain tubthumping ensued. Labour needs to maintain a hold on on it's working class strongholds, many of which voted Leave and the EU is a constrain on Corbyn's socialist policies, so they won't do it. The LibDems are (and it pains me to say this) somewhat pointless/leaderless/directionless. Only the SNP are talking sense.
Nicola Sturgeon needs to rebrand the SNP, snop using nationalist policies, campaign south of the border and take over Westminster. I'd imagine that a good many of the independents would join a strong, socially connected party with a view to scrapping Brexit.
I miss the right wing trolls.
There's plenty of them in the Tinge party.
The online petition was mentioned twice in the House of Commons this afternoon. All petitions that pass the 100000 mark are referred to the Petition Committee and they decide whether it gets any air time in the house. So it's in their hands, whoever they are.
With all due respect: From the outside looking in, there’s either a disparity between your words and your actions, or between what you think you’re saying and what you’re actually saying.
No there isn't. He's been quite clear and his views are very similar to mine.
Put it like this - it's not dazH that keeps forecasting the apocalypse over and over which helps no one. (I'm not saying you do either, but some do for sure.)
It's a complex situation and shouldn't really have been distilled to Remain/Brexit - the debate and consequences of either position were much wider.
No there isn’t. He’s been quite clear and his views are very similar to mine.
Is that quote straight from Alice's Adventures in Wonderland?
keeps forecasting the apocalypse over and over which helps no one.
THM's favourite strawman is back.
MSP - seriously I have not seen one. all I have seen is platitudes and generalities. "show leadership" etc. I am not trolling here.
Maybe I missed it on this megathread - not seen every post but at no time have I seen a post that gives any plausible other routes labour could have taken.
So you expected labour to commit electoral suicide for no end result, given they would have lost the vote even if they had opposed it?
So what is the point in having an 'opposition'? Why not have a GE, then the winning party just carries out the policies it likes without any scrutiny or challenge?
Petitions Committee: https://www.parliament.uk/business/committees/committees-a-z/commons-select/petitions-committee/membership/
at no time have I seen a post that gives any plausible other routes labour could have taken
Try harder.
No there isn’t. He’s been quite clear and his views are very similar to mine.
That to prevent a rise of right wing populism we must give the right wing populists everything they demand?
Sub 24hr and 1mil+ ‘signatures’. That has to say something.
Yes, it says "tiny minority".
One unexpected Brexit effect that falls into the category of antecdote as it only concerns people I've spoken to:
Expats are great for a country, each one is an ambassador. When I've worked for French and Swiss companies my English/Welsh origins have been fully exploited and in my own little way I've contributed to trade. I was pleasantly surprised when a particular brand first appeared on British supermarket shelves because the supermarket chosen for the lauch was the one I'd suggested.
There are lots of expats on this forum and I'd like to bet their bosses hold them in high esteem. They're living the dream and their employers benefit from their positive attitude.
So what happen when those expats feel excluded, unheard and then find they need to apply for another nationality and then get that nationality? Well having watched a few people through the process they feel very proud of their new passport and lot less British, and their attitudes change. One guy who works at a university recently said it's become emabarrasing to be British.
So what happens when millions of grudge-bearing dual nationals stop being positive about Britain? What happens the person in the organisation with the most knowledge about a place becomes the last person to talk positively about it?
And all you expats on the forum. What do you think of my ideas? How do you feel in Germany, Italy, Belgium, Spain, Holland, Scandinavia... . Are you as good a British ambassador as you were 3 years ago?
THM’s favourite strawman is back.
Get past an insult and I will engage with you.
You know when Toyota announced they were building their new Hybrid in the UK - how did you respond to that?
That to prevent a rise of right wing populism we must give the right wing populists everything they demand?
Who said that?
So what is the point in having an ‘opposition’?
It isnt the "opposition" job simply to oppose. Its for them to push for the policies they were voted in for. This may or may not be in opposition to the government.
Especially in this sort of case where both parties are heavily split on the issue.
It certainly isnt the oppositions job to commit suicide in order to save the government from its mistakes.
The Toyota/Suzuki hybrid uses existing production capacity and the future of UK production depends on a very soft Brexit or remain:
“We have consistently said for the medium to longer term, continued free and frictionless trade and common automotive technical standards will be essential to support the international competitiveness of the UK automotive sector.”
Leadsome says this:
Should the petition reach more than 17.4m signatures [ie, the number of people who voted leave], there would be a very clear case for taking action.
Hang on. She thinks there's a case for taking action based on the opinion of the people? So why won't they ask us? She's saying the current people's opinion matters, but won't actually ask for it?
Utter bullshit.
it’s not dazH that keeps forecasting the apocalypse over and over which helps no one.
If you're talking about exaggerated forecasts then of course this is true, but the opposite is true also. Going it'll "I'm sure it'll all be alright" and some variation of sunny uplands and a return to shillings helps no-one either.
It’s a complex situation and shouldn’t really have been distilled to Remain/Brexit – the debate and consequences of either position were much wider.
No arguments here. But we all said this three years ago, and yet here we all are.
From the outside looking in, there’s either a disparity between your words and your actions, or between what you think you’re saying and what you’re actually saying.
Off out on the bike. Will explain in detail later if really necessary. It can be summed up by the following though. Brexit is shit, but it's happening. It's happening because people voted for it. The labour party, being a democratic party must respect that, as must everyone else who values democracy. Nothing will be gained by repeating the mistakes that resulted in people voting for brexit, and the snobbery and condescension which many on the remain side are now displaying is not only disgraceful, but ultimately counter productive. The answer lies in listening to people, and addressing the many issues that brexit voters of all persuasions are concerned about. Brexit put simply, is not the problem, but the result of the historic and continuing marginalisation of huge swathes of our society, and that's a deliberate result of 40 years of neoliberal policies forced upon them by national and supranational governments.
End of rant... I look forward to someone answering the questions above in the couple of hours I'm out on my bike. 🙂
Hang on. She thinks there’s a case for taking action based on the opinion of the people? So why won’t they ask us? She’s saying the current people’s opinion matters, but won’t actually ask for it?
Yep, they know the real answer it's not compatible with their aims. It gives her an easy dismiss tactic. As soon as the amendment on another Ref was defeated a gleeful tory stated that parliament had overwhelmingly rejected a 2nd ref.
It's all about the soundbite.
And all you expats on the forum. What do you think of my ideas? How do you feel in Germany, Italy, Belgium, Spain, Holland, Scandinavia… . Are you as good a British ambassador as you were 3 years ago?
In Sweden here, working in a mainly Swedish, but other European/Worldwide filled office. The general feeling is that the UK has gone mad, that our politicians are nothing but a laughing stock. People bring it up every day and I have nothing to respond with that is positive.
To me, it is a joke that has ruined the standing of the UK in Europe and globally. Revoking A50 won't change that, acting like adults and getting a grip on the insanity, anger, poison and back-stabbing might. How the hell that will happen is anyone's guess, but I can't see it happening soon.
Off out on the bike. Will explain in detail later if really necessary. It can be summed up by the following though. Brexit is shit, but it’s happening. It’s happening because people voted for it.
Enjoy the ride Daz but as you know people have a fundamental disagreement with your opening statement which you base your arguments on, it's not a fact it's an opinion.
Brexit put simply, is not the problem
No, it's not The Armageddon, but, a load of jobs will very likely go, and life in general will get more expensive and difficult. How is that not a problem?
A very narrow majority voted to leave in a dubious referendum which is not being questioned by the elected persons. Part of their job is to make sure we the people are looked after. Occasionally, that might just mean not doing exactly what we ask. Because, as a rule, we're stupid.
I refer you to bread and circuses.
Having a UK past life used to be a badge of honor, nowadays I try not to mention it, it is embarrassing.
Off out on the bike. Will explain in detail later if really necessary. It can be summed up by the following though. Brexit is shit, but it’s happening. It’s happening because people voted for it.
Enjoy the ride Daz but as you know people have a fundamental disagreement with your opening statement which you base your arguments on, it’s not a fact it’s an opinion.
mike,which opening statement? Off out on the bike? 🙂
Seriously though which opening statement?
So you expected labour to commit electoral suicide for no end result, given they would have lost the vote even if they had opposed it?
Their electoral hopes are in tatters anyway. What we need is some form of leadership unafraid to speak and act upon what they believe is to be in the national interest.
Theresa May is adamant Brexit is the will of the people even though all current polls strongly suggest otherwise, and her constantly repeated statements give the impression that she doesn't believe in Brexit herself. It is the will of people. She's just facilitating it.
Meanwhile, Labour apparently have no strong opinion either way, desperately trying to appease their voters who they know are split down the middle, which in reality is pissing everyone off.
Whether supporting leave or remain, someone needs to look at this objectively, seeing the mess for what it is, that no current solution on offer is actually the will of the people, and say hang the **** on, this is a dead end, we need to take a step back.
What is happening is madness on so many levels.
Until politicians start trying to convince us of their vision of the world, rather than trying to tell us what they think we want to hear we will keep sinking deeper into the pit. Getting elected shouldn’t be the endgame. It should be about enthusing others of your view of the world.
Actual Leadership.
So you expected labour to commit electoral suicide for no end result
That ship sailed the day the 6th formers elected Magic Grandad. Brexit just confirmed it. It could have been seen as an opportunity to be bold and hold a rudderless, flailing government, in hock to a bunch of bowler hatted bigots and right wing zealots, to account, and offer a genuine alternative
Instead... Jeremy Corbyn
For someone who was elected as a so-called revolutionary he seems to be quite happy to sit around on the allotment doing absolutely * all and let the neoliberals he apparently despises (the proper red-in-tooth-and-claw ones - not the ones sat behind him) to get on with whatever they fancy doing, totally unopposed
Oh... and not forgetting popping up at the truly critical junctures to whip your MPs to support the government
Worse than *ing useless, the beardy brexiteer
dantsw13 - Until politicians start trying to convince us of their vision of the world, rather than trying to tell us what they think we want to hear we will keep sinking deeper into the pit. Getting elected shouldn’t be the endgame. It should be about enthusing others of your view of the world.
Actual Leadership.
Hear frickin hear.
Alistair Campbell's quote comes to mind about the last march. "Anything with that much support is on the right side of history". I think the petition and the coming march will support that. WHat if it did get to 18M 😀 . I guess it's not a denial of service attack if it can't keep up...
Petition site crashed again.
They've already added more resources this pm.
I wonder what the real tally would have been if everyone had got their vote recorded.
@dazh - the rest of your post I agree wholeheartedly with, but this is the bit I have an issue with (and I presume Mike also):
Brexit is shit, but it’s happening. It’s happening because people voted for it. The labour party, being a democratic party must respect that, as must everyone else who values democracy.
This is fallacious, for the reasons I and others have explained countless times previously. Rather than repeat myself again (unless you really need me to) I'll summarise it just by saying: that is not how democracy works in the UK. Never has been, never will.
The only people saying this are leavers trying to legitimise brexit and shut down opposition, or remainers who have heard this soundbite over and over and have started to believe it. If you're asserting this as fact then you're either being disingenuous or daft, and I really don't believe that you're daft.
I've written and deleted two long posts trying to present a balanced view on the stance of the political parties - especially Labour as per above arguments - but I can't.
There is no compromise position that makes sense and no positioning by either party will not cause them some electoral issues. Given this I can't now see any reason why Labour should not go full 2nd ref despite the temporary electability issues it will cause in many of its heartlands.
Beyond this my hope is that, given Brexit divides parties that and now we are at the crunch, that MPs will begin to step outside party boundaries and vote with heir consciences and the national interest.
Whatever happens I think we may well be at year zero of a new politics
@Cougar isnt "respecting the referendum" - or at least recognising that it can't be ignored however flawed- part of the reasoning why a 2nd ref is route being argued for remain as oppose to just revocation of A50 and binning brexit?
Edit
Brexit is shit, but it’s happening. It’s happening because people voted for it. The labour party, being a democratic party must respect that, as must everyone else who values democracy. Nothing will be gained by repeating the mistakes that resulted in people voting for brexit, and the snobbery and condescension which many on the remain side are now displaying is not only disgraceful, but ultimately counter productive. The answer lies in listening to people, and addressing the many issues that brexit voters of all persuasions are concerned about. Brexit put simply, is not the problem, but the result of the historic and continuing marginalisation of huge swathes of our society, and that’s a deliberate result of 40 years of neoliberal policies forced upon them by national and supranational governments.
Brexit won't solve any of the problems caused by unfair wealth distribution and neo-liberal policies over the last 40 years. It will make all of them worse - supercharged austerity is on the way. That's why Brexit has to be opposed.
May herself recognised the "left behinds" in her first speech as PM
But the mission to make Britain a country that works for everyone means more than fighting these injustices. If you’re from an ordinary working class family, life is much harder than many people in Westminster realise. You have a job but you don’t always have job security. You have your own home, but you worry about paying a mortgage. You can just about manage but you worry about the cost of living and getting your kids into a good school.
If you’re one of those families, if you’re just managing, I want to address you directly.
I know you’re working around the clock, I know you’re doing your best, and I know that sometimes life can be a struggle. The government I lead will be driven not by the interests of the privileged few, but by yours.
We will do everything we can to give you more control over your lives. When we take the big calls, we’ll think not of the powerful, but you. When we pass new laws, we’ll listen not to the mighty but to you. When it comes to taxes, we’ll prioritise not the wealthy, but you. When it comes to opportunity, we won’t entrench the advantages of the fortunate few. We will do everything we can to help anybody, whatever your background, to go as far as your talents will take you.
Unfortunately its about the only decent speech she has ever made and she quickly backslid, reneged or U-turned on everything.
Brexit solves nothing, its like demolishing your house because the boilers not working.
that is not how democracy works in the UK. Never has been, never will.
It's not how it worked until Dave gave the referendum. That was when it stopped working the old way, for all practical purposes. That broke the system, because of what it implied.
Understandably there's a lot of focus on "the process" at the moment. Some might argue that the PM herself is so focussed on the process that she has forgotten why we are doing this.
But let's not forget the fact that after 3 years, there are still virtually no positive reasons for exiting the EU, even less for exiting without a deal. This is why there are so many folks who feel so strongly about this and will happily see the result of the referendum overturned and 'democracy threatened'
If it had been a case of 6 of one and half a dozen of the other with regards to reasons for staying in or leaving, and leave had won, then I think a lot of us would have been more happy to roll over and accept the result. We'd have been losing out on some things but gaining elsewhere. However that is clearly not the case... pretty much everything the leave campaign promised was either hopelessly optimistic, downright untrue or has since been debunked.
Given all of that, I would suggest that rolling over and letting the worst happen is undemocratic in itself. Allowing something to happen that is clearly not in the interests of the country and the people that voted for it is not the basis of our democracy.
That is why folks don't agree with the view of dazh etc. I agree with a lot of the analysis, just not the conclusion.
I agree that it isn't going to be pretty but there is not a way forward now that is.
However, dazh (sorry not picking on you dazh but you are quite vocal on this) is quite right in that unless some of the reasons why folk voted for this shitshow are not addressed then who knows what we are going to end up with and all of the pain will have been for nothing.
^^^
yeah agree with that.
But, there's no going back is there? (wherever we go. Personally I hope to come out of the shower and find the last couple of years has just been a dream.)
The answer lies in listening to people
Who is listening to the people that didn't vote to leave? Because near as half didn't.
And the people 18-20 yrs old.
For those interested, 3x more folk signed the revoke than the no deal petition now...
Who is listening to the people that didn’t vote to leave? Because near as half didn’t.
That's the reason why a petition that has sat doing nothing for a couple of weeks all of a sudden went ballistic...
as soon as the PM told us all that she knew how we felt, folks started signing...
She doesn't listen at all and ever since the day of the result the 48% and the young people have been totally ignored - it has all been about how she can appease the headbangers, not about how she can reasonably bring the country forwards into some kind of consensus.
She deserves the mess she now finds herself in.
Amber Rudd is now openly trolling May on twitter
https://twitter.com/AmberRuddHR/status/1108775911506305025?s=19
And all you expats on the forum. What do you think of my ideas? How do you feel in Germany, Italy, Belgium, Spain, Holland, Scandinavia… . Are you as good a British ambassador as you were 3 years ago?
Belgium here. I believe we hold the world record for the longest time without a government :). Sometimes issues just can't be achieved. If the original vote had been for a gold bar for every voter then clearly it would have won and equally clearly it wouldn't have been achievable. I think we are in the same situation where although the country clearly voted for something it wasn't a 'thing' that was achievable in the way that people imagined. I suspect the UK is ready to challenge for a world record....
isnt “respecting the referendum” – or at least recognising that it can’t be ignored however flawed- part of the reasoning why a 2nd ref is route being argued for remain as oppose to just revocation of A50 and binning brexit?
Possibly, who knows. As I've said (repeatedly) before though, I think another referendum is as stupid an idea as the last one, what should happen in a parliamentary democracy is that parliament acts in a country's best interests irrespective of what its people might think they want.
However, a referendum is what got us into this shitshow and thanks to "the will of the people" rhetoric being hammered out at every turn it's looking increasingly likely that holding another one might be the only way out of it again. Make no mistake though, this is **** all to do with democracy and everything to do with appeasing the great unwashed (with a side order of saving face).
Mob rule is not "democracy" however you slice it. Even in Switzerland which does have a form of direct democracy, their parliament is still sovereign and can overrule referendum results if they don't meet the criteria or otherwise think it's a really bad idea.
Oh, and,
I think at this point we can safely say that the result hasn't been "ignored," we've spent three years trying to enact it (for some value of "trying"). Other than the risk of gammongeddon I see little reason why we can't now just say "well, we honoured the result and tried to leave but it's proven impossible to do so safely in the timeframe available to us, so we've no option but to try something else." But that would involve parliament doing its job and I've more chance of growing a second willy than that happening any time soon.
Labour front benchers now saying that the Withdrawal Agreement can stay as it is, as long as the "package" has something added to it declaring UK trying for a close relationship with EU after transition.
What do we think likely result is in 8 days time…?
- no deal now : 40%
- WA + bit of "jobs first" & short ext : 25%
- long ext & election : 20%
- long ext & referendum on WA : 5%
- revocation followed by election : 10%
Comment from Private Eye regarding the petition:
"BREAKING: Theresa May finally succeeds in getting people to back something."
What a suprise, Corbyn et al bottle it.
@cougar I totally agree referendums are not compatible with our democracy - that must be clear to everyone with any sense now. The breaking of our democracy is just another fun element of the whole cluster ****
Patronising remoaner bully boys out in force again! Jesus wept. Cougar have a word with yourself- Everyone who disagrees with you is not a liar or disingenuous- "with all due respect! You need to have some respect FFS! Call people wrong & disagree but dont call people liars.
I think indicative votes is the way to go and if those votes indicate that A50 should be revoked I am OK with that. I am against a second referendum, let the politicians clean up their own mess.
Kelvin - can you share a link?