[Closed] EU Referendum - are you in or out?

You do know it started with being concerned for their kids movement - or more accurately them[ the kids] being concerned by it- so its not about themselves.

Yeah, my father also thinks cyclists should be moved off the roads 'for their own safety'

Nothing to do with the right wing press confirming his own bias

Previously you were a citizen. You have now become a subject.

We are subjects of her majesty Queen Elizabeth the Second, by the Grace of God Queen of this Realm and of Her other Realms and Territories, Head of the Commonwealth, Defender of the Faith.

I agree about the back door legislation though, people seem to overlook this part of 'taking back control'

What's also pathetic is all you remainers semm to care about is whether it is hitting you financially and being able to move around freely, not any political principles,

The future state of the economy and the potential loss of a fundamental freedom would be regarded as political issues by most sane people. I'm not just fussed about the threat to my personal finances, but those of my kids who will be entering the labour market in the next decade.

My main concern is nothing to do with money. My main concern is what this lot are going to do with their newly self-appointed powers.

Look at the people we're talking about here. Have a read about their strongly held beliefs. They're all ridiculously right-wing, and have the open desire to turn Britain into a barely-regulated tax haven, with huge inequality, and an end to a lot of the stuff we take for granted - the NHS, welfare state etc. Just take a look across the Atlantic to see the kind of education, health and welfare system this lot want.

I personally don't want my kids growing up in that kind of country. From a financial point of view, a huge financial crisis (caused by.... oh I don't know.... maybe crashing out of the EU without a deal?) is the perfect opportunity to achieve this

The bottom line is that, given their obvious direction of travel, I wouldn't trust this lot as far as I could throw them!

I am also concerned about the shortage of skilled workers for the NHS. we have a shortage of nurses as over the last 20 years we have not trained enough and a large % are retiring in the next ten years. We do not have enough UK passport holders to fill these posts. Spain has a surplus of nurses so we recruited many of them. Now applications from the EU have dropped 95%. Where are the nurses we need going to come from? don't say asia - their nursing qualifications are not recognised in the UK - they have to be retrained to meet our standards.

* double post above (please ignore the thumbgeddon one)

What's also pathetic is all you remainers semm to care about is whether it is hitting you financially and being able to move around freely, not any political principles

@TurnerGuy, you had a good number of responses to this, are you ready to concede you are mistaken?

Malvern rider - I rather like the misspellings

are you ready to concede you are mistaken?

Doubtful. He appears to be today's rostered brexshitter. Brexshit policy dictates silence after being proven wrong, followed by a change of topic a few hours later if the next brexshitter isn't available to start their shift early.

What's also pathetic is all you remainers semm to care about is whether it is hitting you financially and being able to move around freely, not any political principles

I care deeply about political principles.

The concept of a nation is a pretty fluid one. Just ask anyone Scottish, Welsh, Catalan, Bavarian, Basque, etc etc. I want integration and co-operation between neighbours. I want to work together to increase prosperity, and I want that prosperity shared around.

Democracy, also, is a pretty wide-open concept. The EU isn't undemocratic, it's very clearly democratic as we vote for MEPs. You may not consider it to be democratic *enough* but that's a different argument. How much democracy does a country need? That's a pretty tough question to answer. Too much and bickering and partisanship prevent problems being solved; or politicians only act to protect their own jobs instead of for the benefit of the country (sound familiar?). Not enough and those in power can do what they want. But what if those in power want the same things as us?

I'm not arguing for a dictatorship. But I'm arguing against thinking of ultimate democracy as a panacaea. It's a tool to hold governments to account, not a governental system in itself. Otherwise we'd all get a vote on every commons bill. That would be bedlam.

So the EU was democratic enough for me, and it had the ability to do things that were unpopular with electorates and businesses, such as legislate for increased energy efficiency.

He appears to be today's rostered brexshitter. 

Brexshit policy dictates silence after being proven wrong,

If only the same could be said for remoaner BS - that keeps going on ad nauseam and getting more and more exaggerated each day

Being wrong seems to be a badge of honour

My kids expect to work overseas at some point - with my encouragement - and there is no reason why they shouldn’t

Well one reason why they shouldn't is that they won't speak the language as they didn't have the opportunity to study abroad via ERASMUS or whatever. That's before you even get to stuff like visas.

As molgrips said, these hurdles can be overcome by talented and determined individuals, but it just makes the hurdles a bit higher, so that more will fail to clear them.

Another 'picture tells a 1000 words' image from Brussles today

[img] [/img]

Where are the nurses going to come from? this is a real issue

Being wrong seems to be a badge of honour

And you and your fellow brexiters wear it well thm.

Being wrong seems to be a badge of honour

You're wrong TurnerGuy I think the core values of the EU are fundamentally the right thing to do and carping on about the sanctity of the "nation state" is pathetic. It's time to grow up.

Not so great, if you are young and want to work

Youth unemployment
France 23.00%
Spain 38.7%
Italy 35.5%

Well you swapped sides so I guess you would know

Money has no sides, jy 🙂

I am fortunate in that respect - one mini THM has 1st class honours in French and lived there for a year as part of Erasmus. Girlfriend 1st in German and Spanish, she also benefited from Erasmus and this was a key argument for me in remaining. Always good to be prepared!! I may have said that before.

There are always hurdles and they always changed. That’s life - nothing gets handed to us on a plate!!

I lived in Japan and couldn’t speak a word when I arrived. But you deal with it...

TurnerGuy is laughing at the response he got.

Political principles? For me, people above nations.

Nations only exist to serve the people, and if that fails then the nations want removing.

That said nations are transitory.

And on the EU, it’s been pretty good for the people of Europe - sustained peace in Western Europe for the first time in hundreds of years, uplifted human rights, decent quality of life. Yes there are richer and poorer, but overall we’re not too bad (compare how we were before).

But TurnerGuy knows this - he’s just winding you up.

And my compliments to him. Excellently done.

There are always hurdles and they always changed. That’s life - nothing gets handed to us on a plate!!

Not a great argument for needlessly adding more. You are an affluent white male. You are playing this game with the level set to "easy". Not everyone has it so good.

Leavers - nurses? where will the thousands we need come from?

Leavers - nurses? where will the thousands we need come from?

We will happily allow nurses to come to work from the EU. But not their partners or their elderly parents.

Yes right - all handed on a plate

That’s bloody lame Dr but not surprising

Not so great, if you are young and want to work

Youth unemployment
France 23.00%
Spain 38.7%
Italy 35.5%

indeed unemployment varies hugely across EU
with such variation

is this is the fault of the EU or individual nations though?

http://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/statistics-explained/index.php/People_at_risk_of_poverty_or_social_exclusion

so does poverty, in the UK we have record levels of in-work poverty, and indeed children in poverty.........
[img] [/img]

[img] [/img]

Yes right - all handed on a plate

My mistake - you became white and male by your own hard work. Well done!

Not a great argument for needlessly adding more. You are an affluent white male. You are playing this game with the level set to "easy". Not everyone has it so good.

Nail on head.

THM seems to look at his own life, see it's all fine, and then extrapolate that everything's going to be fine. You may not be a signed up Tory but you are right of centre.

People will still work abroad, but only the lucky ones.

I'm skilled and affluent, I once tried to get work in the US. It's damn difficult.

Being wrong seems to be a badge of honour

You wear it very well. Care to highlight where I've been wrong? I'm all ears...

That’s life - nothing gets handed to us on a plate!!

Why should opportunities like working abroad be something you have to earn? We've already agreed it's beneficial, so why can't everyone have beneficial opportunities?

DrJ - Member

Leavers - nurses? where will the thousands we need come from?

We will happily allow nurses to come to work from the EU. But not their partners or their elderly parents.

Under such conditions none will want to come ( expensive visas, only right to stay for a limited time, ?? needing private medical insurance). 95% drop in applications IIRC

Under such conditions none will want to come

Quite. I should have added an emoticon of some sort to my post.

Mol - argue with someone else. I support full FOM. I have enjoyed it and I have advised my children all their lives to prepare for it and GFI. I would expect the minis to live and work overseas at some stage

Go back a few years and ask how many new remoaners were happy with FOM!!!!

Oh and they come to earn money, so with the £ dropping they'll be getting less of it.

So, the usual bluster, toomuchhurt, wave your arms around like a demented windmill implying everyone else is wrong, then when one of those you cast those aspersions at challenges you, you simply ignore it. Grow up, you're not at high school any more.

That’s life - nothing gets handed to us on a plate!!

Have you read the parable of the sower* I think Jesus explains it all rather well. Perhaps you should listen to him?
The economic wealth of your parents is still the greatest indicator of your likelihood to be wealthy not hard work. Parents know this it is why they send their kids to private school as wealth really can buy advantage - like you need that explaining to you
* amongst my favourite biblical passages** FWIW

** yes its a short list 😉

Mefty - you might want to check what that unemployment rate includes. It’s queered by the fact that many young folk are in education and therefore not in the denominator or numerator of the rate.
The unemployment ratio assumes education is a good thing and puts the unemployed over the whole population of that age group.
Of the countries you mention we currently have the lowest ratio (being 1.4% better than France, 2.4 to Italy and 7.1 to Spain).
Of course in 2007, we were flat last of those countries.

so does poverty, in the UK we have record levels of in-work poverty, and indeed children in poverty.

You rather convenietly failed to mention that table is "at risk" of poverty, of course we have a benefits system and there is another table adjusting for those - rather surprisingly you didn't post that because it shows a rather different picture.

Mefty - nurses?

You rather convenietly failed to mention that table is "at risk" of poverty,

what this one? that does not differentiate between children and still shopws we lag behind many EU countries

[img] [/img]

or this one detailing families that cant afford unexpected financial hits
[img] [/img]

or this one looking at deprivation
[img] [/img]

Of course the sunlit uplands of this Tory Brexit look set to fix all this..... 😯

This was quite an eye opener. In fact, it really wasn't as it's pretty obvious stuff

https://mobile.twitter.com/JolyonMaugham/status/921068161692205057

tjagain - Member

95% drop in applications IIRC

It was 96%.

[url= https://mobile.twitter.com/Channel4News/status/921330517064273921?ref_src=twsrc%5Egoogle%7Ctwcamp%5Eserp%7Ctwgr%5Etweet ]No, nothing to do with xenophobia at all....[/url]

Mefty - you might want to check what that unemployment rate includes.

I take your point, I think the answer lies between the two, but it is clearly a huge problem for Southern Europe. There are plenty of young who are staying in education because they have no prospect of getting work and hope it will increase their chances.