Forum menu
How fast is the stagnating Europe growing this year?
How do UK debt levels (sovereign, corporate, household) compare with the rest of Europe?
mrlebowski - MemberInterestingly FPTP did prevent UKIP from actually being a party with any power - not such a bad thing..
Really? as much as I dislike them, UKIP took over 12% of the vote but got one seat, 0.15% of MPs- we basically decided about 3800000 million people's votes don't count. That's not OK in a democracy, just because we don't like how they voted. [i]My[/i] party got less than 1/3d the vote and 56 times more seats, and that's not OK either. I'm pretty fantastic but even taking that into account, giving me the equivalent of 200 votes is a bit much.
But people have the nerve to complain about low turnout and criticise people for feeling their worthless vote is worthless
Given the success the EU has made of border control, reacting the to migrant crises, the economy and the euro how anyone can think for one second that an Army would be a good idea is beyond me.DrJ we clearly have a very different view of the successfulness of the EU
I seem to remember being somewhat critical of the EU in the context of Greece - perhaps that slipped your mind? The Euro is clearly a complete bollox, so it's lucky that we are no part of it.
Nobody is suggesting that we will ever be part of any EU Army, so again, this is a non-issue.
The migrant crisis mishandled? Maybe. Please send in your proposed solution on a postcard.
TMH our economy is far far stronger than the vast majority of the rest of Europe. We should be deleveraging (and we are trying) but our dent is largely affordable. Europe can't afford their debts and we most certainly cannot afford to be bailing them out
Unemployment ? Lets look at EU growth in 12, 24 and 36 months. Its about the future not the present
Interesting that some folk on here think it is correct for the UK to have a referendum to leave the European Union because the party in government supports it and there was wide public for a referendum. Yet in the future,if a party in government in a nation of the United Kingdom should support leaving that union and there is wide public support within that nation for leaving the United Kingdom they should not be allowed to hold a referendum.
Europe can't afford their debts and we most certainly cannot afford to be bailing them out
Out of interest how many times do you need it pointing out that we are not liable before you stop repeating this complete and utter lie?
Really? as much as I dislike them, UKIP took over 12% of the vote but got one seat, 0.15% of MPs- we basically decided about 3800000 million people's votes don't count. That's not OK in a democracy, just because we don't like how they voted. My party got less than 1/3d the vote and 56 times more seats, and that's not OK either. I'm pretty fantastic but even taking that into account, giving me the equivalent of 200 votes is a bit much.But people have the nerve to complain about low turnout and criticise people for feeling their worthless vote is worthless
I think you rather missed my point.
I wasn't advocating FPTP in any way - all I said was that it prevented UKIP from having a too powerful a voice in parliament. Given the rhetoric that comes out of that party I think that is a good thing.
Undemocratic? It's certainly contentious whether FPTP is or not but in that particular instance it had an upside.
Your last comment perplexes me though.
It seems you assume I don't vote & engage, yet here I am engaging & I promise you I will be voting. I feel fully entitled to complain about the EU's democratic process or perceived lack thereof & don't you dare to try take that right away from me!
TMH our economy is far far stronger than the vast majority of the rest of Europe.
No its [b]slightly[/b] stronger - although of course the two are inter-related, even though OUTers like to ignore this.
The EU is facing economic problems which we agree are compounded by the Euro. Nevertheless it is not stagnating. It is growing slowly. If you want to see some stagnation look at Brazil etc...
Good job that we are not bailing them out - unless you are counting our separate exposure via the IMF?
We should be deleveraging (and we are trying)
Not very hard, nor very successfully despite our full control over the process. Good old austerity 😉
mrlebowski - MemberUndemocratic? It's certainly contentious whether FPTP is or not but in that particular instance it had an upside.
Disenfranchising people doesn't have an upside even when they happen to be people you don't agree with. If nothing else, sooner or later someone who disagrees with you will feel the same. And you'll find them much harder to win them over to any other party or argument. Or, along will come a referendum...
Your last comment perplexes me though.
It wasn't aimed directly at you- a more general observation that we have a system basically designed to lower voter turnout, yet then we complain about it and blame the people who've been screwed by it.
Definitely in but that doesn't mean the EU is perfect – we should be more engaged with it. How many of us can name our MEP for example?
Well I'm shitting myself now. Oh, there might be a bit of a recession, they say. Well I'm ****ed if I lose my job, so thanks for that in advance boneheads.
[i] molgrips - Member
Well I'm shitting myself now. Oh, there might be a bit of a recession, they say. Well I'm **** if I lose my job, so thanks for that in advance boneheads[/i]
Have you been drinking?
Can you make your point please caller?
[i] molgrips - Member
Can you make your point please caller?[/i]
After you dear.
And please avoid a repeat of your hysterical rant, above. Use your words.
🙂
Well I'm shitting myself now. Oh, there might be a bit of a recession, they say. Well I'm **** if I lose my job, so thanks for that in advance boneheads.
That's the problem with the inners....its all me, me, ME!!
@molgrips EU is sliding into another recession with no central bank ammunition left and governments close to (or already) being bankrupt (no ability to devalue). UK dragged down and into the bailout to end all bailouts. Its my view the Remain senarios look much worse. Hence my vote
Remain politicians don't believe in the EU, they only speak of reform and staying out of the core group and oitbofnthe euro at all costs. The fact is they are looking only at the 2020 GE, they are not campaigning for the long term future of the country.
Jamba: UK dragged down and into the bailout to end all bailouts.
JY - looks like the lie is good for a few more repetitions yet!
Out of interest how many times do you need it pointing out that we are not liable
We weren't liable for Ireland's debt but we contributed to the bailout. We are labile throigh the treaty, we will be dragged in, you don't think for a second the EU will allow the euro to collapse without demanding bailout funds from us ? If you do you are naive in the extreme.
When we get our demand I'll be be back for pictures of you being forced fed humble pie
We weren't liable for Ireland's debt but we contributed to the bailout
I'm not liable to send my folks a Christmas card but I do occasionally.
And please avoid a repeat of your hysterical rant, above. Use your words
Surely you noticed the large number of experts predicting a severe recession if we leave? That's what I'm worried about.
jambalaya - Member
We weren't liable for Ireland's debt but we contributed to the bailout.
Aye a massive altrustic action of giving them a loan. You know that thing where you give someone money then get the money back + interest!
Oh the hardships of being a money lender! 😆
Thinking of moving to Scotland. Or Sweden.
Anyone doing the hokie pokie...in/out in/out
Ok I'm sticking to out.
We need a new agreements with EU, although I'm worried about the uncertainty on the economy.
What will happen to EU workers (lives) who are here? Will they be forced to reapply or leave? Or will it be an amnesty from a certain date? Where everyone tries to get in by?
We weren't liable for Ireland's debt but we contributed to the bailout.
You mean we as a country, whilst within the EU, were able to freely choose to do something we wanted to ..this is a stunning revelation.Why were the EU not bullying us or stopping us?
your pants are on fire that is a lie we are specifically not liable for Eurozone debts EVERYONE KNOWS THIS hence why you have to say this after saying we are liable by a treating once again defeating your own argumentWe are labile throigh the treaty,
we will be dragged in, you don't think for a second the EU will allow the euro to collapse without demanding bailout funds from us ?
They cannot force us to do this as there is a treaty that stops them and its unlikely we will volunteer
If you do you are naive in the extreme.
yes anyone who can recognise facts and not agree with your untruthful hyperbole is indeed naïve ...How many more days of this do we have to endure?
Surely you noticed the large number of experts predicting a severe recession if we leave?
Are they? I've only seen mention of short term turbulence and slower growth.
Or do you mean politicians? In that case I'd be more worried about ww3.
Surely you noticed the large number of experts predicting a severe recession if we leave? That's what I'm worried about.
The same experts that warned and warned and warned and warned about the 2008 crash?
No.
Disenfranchising people doesn't have an upside even when they happen to be people you don't agree with. If nothing else, sooner or later someone who disagrees with you will feel the same. And you'll find them much harder to win them over to any other party or argument. Or, along will come a referendum...
For the 2nd time I'm not disagreeing with you nor am I advocating FPTP.
The same experts that warned and warned and warned and warned about the 2008 crash?
No, I think it was the ones who told us that we would be doomed if we did't join the Euro
@molgrips EU is sliding into another recession
Really
with no central bank ammunition left
Not quite true - we are reaching the limits of extraordinary monetary policy, true
and governments close to (or already) being bankrupt (no ability to devalue).
A liitle loose here. Leaving aside the idea that governments are bankrupt, that is not the same thing as being unable to devalue. They are separate. Indeed devaluing your currency when you debts are in harder currencies would exacerbate not alleviate problems. No easy answers in economics
UK dragged down and into the bailout to end all bailouts. Its my view the Remain senarios look much worse. Hence my vote
Its still not true. Go back to Ireland and to Greece and check the nature of our emergency funding (collateral and repayment). Check the legal status of future emergency funding in the EU and check how if at all we are exposed via the IMF in the event of a Greek default? It all there in black and white....and none of it supports your claim.
Remain politicians don't believe in the EU, they only speak of reform and staying out of the core group and oitbofnthe euro at all costs.
Pretty sensible position. Maximise the benefits of membership, minimise the downsides. The alternative? Lose the benefits and continue with many of the downsides.
And people think that is a good idea?
The same experts that warned and warned and warned and warned about the 2008 crash?
Sophistry
As you cannot refute what they are ALL saying you are left to argue that predicting the consequences of leaving are the same as predicting capitalism into the future for ever Its not and its silly to argue otherwise.
OR
A weather forecaster may not be able to predict exactly when a storm arrives this year or next year but that does not mean we should ignore them when they say winter will be colder than summer
Remainers are so desperate now they are changing the law ! Registration deadline is to be revised. This is a clear sign they know that they stand on the losing side right now.
Aye a massive altrustic action of giving them a loan. You know that thing where you give someone money then get the money back + interest!
A loan that was 100% collateralised and paid back in full. If only bankers did that as a matter of course!!!
Remainers are so desperate now...
Oh the ironing!
I know he flip-flops all over the place, but why is Michael Gove * fully supportive of the deadline extension?
Remainers are so desperate now they are changing the law ! Registration deadline is to be revised. This is a clear sign they know that they stand on the losing side right now.
*I understand that Gove is [s]auditioning for Chancellor[/s] a leading figure in Vote Leave
Joking apart - it really is time to stop the mis-information on bailouts.
Remainers are so desperate now they are changing the law ! Registration deadline is to be revised. This is a clear sign they know that they stand on the losing side right now.
Needs an appeal to an authority but nice non sequitur
4/10
I don't know what is so wrong about letting folk register to vote after the T collapsed
I am not sure who to spin letting folk vote as anything other than a good thing.
As you cannot refute what they are ALL saying
And neither can you confirm what they are ALL saying. Nobody knows. We can make best guesses but that's all. Best guesses have ended up well wide of the mark before, and will again.
EDIT: and Jamba, despite falling mainly on your side of this argument, you REALLY need to look into our liability for Eurozone bailouts - i.e. £0. You're making yourself look daft and that doesn't help with any other points you may have to make.
Interesting [url= http://news.sky.com/story/1708865/is-money-leaving-the-uk-due-to-brexit-fears ]financial facts about Brexit fears[/url]
However, my view is philosophical rather than financial; the whole leave idea is reactionary & regressionist back to protectionism, nationalism and is essentially luddite in nature.
Yes Chewkw may say "It'll be fine" 👿 think I trust him as much as I did Kaa as a kid.
Look at our economy before we joined the EU - the poor man of Europe. So whilst in the EU we've managed to grow our economy and be really successful and how would the Leave campaign have us thank them....
mrlebowski - MemberFor the 2nd time I'm not disagreeing with you
You are though. Behold:
mrlebowski - MemberUndemocratic? It's certainly contentious whether FPTP is or not but in that particular instance it had an upside.
Northwind - MemberDisenfranchising people doesn't have an upside
Not true OX - we have potential exposure via the IMF [b]irrespective of the vote[/b] and Jambas knows that.
In contrast the zero exposure you refer to relates to our exposure to EZ emergency and crisis funding eg, a potential Greek bailout. He also knows this - hence the answer ducking. In the past we provided emergency funding which was 100% collateralised and repaid IN FULL. As a non-EZ member we have no exposure to emergency funding to the EZ - I have posted the link to the relevant docs about 4 pages ago.
Would the BoE put interest rates up after a Brexit to encourage people back to the currency?
And neither can you confirm what they are ALL saying. Nobody knows.
So we are not certain that winter will be colder than summer then as its just a guess ? Yu sure you want to argue that ?
The second point is they are not guesses the experts actually did some investigation/research to reach a conclusion so the term guess is used to misrepresent what they have done. Brexit guess - unless you can show me an actual well argued economic plan for post EU costed etc. Can you ?
You are only going to repeat the same things as if all the international bodies findings is equivalent to a politically motivated "guess" - they are not
As you are Brexit you wont accept this point
This argument that FPTP is undemocratic is baloney, it relies on the false premise that parties and voters would operate in the same way in a proportional system. They wouldn't - how parties operate is shaped by the electoral system, so is how voters vote - if you change the system, the data is next to useless from the old system. Both systems are democratic, they have different strengths and weaknesses, the fact that few know who their MEP (or MEPs to be precise) are is one of the weaknesses of PR.
Heart says in....head says out, of the dozen friends and family I've spoken too they're all voting out.