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more and more middle class professional types now saying why hitch our waggon to such a failing organisation. The Euro - fail; Schengen - fail, Syrian crisis - fail; Greece - fail.
Bingo, as us old fogies like to say as after all its only old crusty bigots voting Leave according to Remain-ers
My point was that the leaders of Leave are now no better than people on an Internet forum
DrJ there's me thinking I'm qualified as a World leadsr, all in the interpretation see 🙂
Any answers ?
Deja vu ?
Any answers 😉 ?
So we know that Bojo will ignore the request to stop misleading the public over the cost of membership. But will Gove now respect the IFS and stop misrepresenting their analysis of the use of the money.
How contemptuous of the public are the leaders in the quest for personal glory. Remember Icarus wee Michael.....
Deja vu ?
That's a no then....
Deja vu indeed.
Junky [b]if[/b] Cameronnis true to his word he will activate Artcile 50 immediately. If in 2 years we don't have a deal we'll quit anyway and revel in the billions of net trade tariff proceeds and free to biy goods at the best peice and not subject to eu restrictions. My base case scenario on a Leave vote is change of leadership, an a quick Aticle 50 followed by frantic negotiation from the EU offering us a "temporary" brake on migration amd greater budget rebates / more grants. This will be against a background of signifcant disruption in Europe from others asking for similar brake on migration amd a scrapping of refugee quotas. Chaos.
@mrleb you are confusing short term volatility where hot money repositions and long term fundamental value based fx rates. Without the UK as a member the EU is much weaker and as such its currency must fall. The Swiss currency is so strong as its been the beneficiary of significant inflows not least as they are not in the EU
tmhnyour questions are pirely acamdeic, irrelevant. Listen to Boris today, he's on the same page as me, Greece blows up, contagion, we are obliged to oay into rescue/stablisation fund/Christmas gift plan etc
Still waiting for the out campaign to provide me with some facts and figures so i actually have a decision to make. As the group wanting to break the status quo its up to them to drop a 500 page book full of statistics through my door so i can make an educated choice.
Since thats clearly not going to happen that only leaves voting in or not voting as choices.
Felt very much the same during the Scottish referendum. The public are being asked to make huge decisions, but being provided with no data upon which to base their vote.
Listen to Boris? I do. It used to be amusing, it's now simply shameful. Truly shameful.
Surprised his got past then torygraph editors but Hague nails it
For four years, as Leader of the Opposition, my job was to interrogate Tony Blair every week at Prime Minister’s Questions; a close approximation to trying to nail jelly to a wall.I used all the techniques ever devised of presenting him with a question demanding a “yes” or “no” answer, where both “yes” and “no” were politically impossible to say. And he employed every means known to a seasoned politician of addressing a question without ever coming down on either side of it.
Even one day when the First Minister of Wales resigned minutes before PMQs – news of which reached me but not him – and I immediately tried to trick him into expressing confidence in that Minister, Blair sniffed the air, smelt the rat, and talked about Wales in general. When it came to obfuscation, he was a class act.
The perfection of this art is the ability to say something that sounds very definite and even dramatic, but which really leaves the listener none the wiser. And while in the Commons this is just sport – my Chief Whip used to say to me each week “Thank God it’s only a game” – [b]it is a little depressing to see so much of the referendum campaign based on this art. [/b]
Hague's approach is not the same as mine tbc. My questions are very easy to answer yes or no. Far from irrelevant, they are critical. How do I know that? Because I have let you define them.
The Euro zone is "suffering" the same readjustments as the US. If you remove the possibility to go through a series of competitive devaluations the most competitive areas are the ones that thrive. Sadly competitive in some sectors means lower wages, worse working conditions and lower health service provisions/pensions. My main gripe is the lack of Euro bonds. The Dollar would fail if the Fed applied 25% interest rates to Hawaii and 0% to Nebraska. See Greek crisis below. You still have pounds in your pockets. what's not to like?
Schengen. Nothing changed for Britain. The UK opted out and I'd been traveling around Europe just slowing down at borders for years.
Syrian crisis. Who started it all! Blair and Bush not Europe. See what Dominique de Villepin had to say at the UN before Tommy waded in. More recently the RAF were among those bombing Syria hardest in the run up to the latest ceasefire.
Greece. I blame Switzerland not Europe for facilitating the rape and pillage of the Greek economy (and Merkel for opposing Euro bonds and sensible rates for all). GB isn't impacted anyhow.
I'll add "European expansion" to the mix, perhaps Britain should have used its veto when it could. But didn't.
its only old crusty bigots voting Leave according to Remain-ers
No you're right, it's not only old crusty bigots who want to leave. Sadly it's only old crusty bigots who get the attention of the media.
As the Left Leave Campaign says, voters deserve better than an ugly choice between David Cameron’s pro-EU campaign on the one hand, and the reactionary anti-EU campaigning of UKIP and the Tory right on the other.
Junky if Cameronnis true to his word he will activate Artcile 50 immediately. If in 2 years we don't have a deal we'll quit anyway and revel in the billions of net trade tariff proceeds and free to biy goods at the best peice and not subject to eu restrictions.
TBH fella that is ridiculous. No one thinks we will be creaming in it and you have to be beyond optimistic to think this will happen. its why all the experts are predicting an economic downturn if we go for BRexit not just for us but it will cause a ripple and shockwave that the world will feel. No one is predicting a wave of prosperity and an arc of freedom. I admire your fervour but that is is less likely than the glorious revolution.
.This is an incredibly good time for economies and deal making isn't it and business just love chaos dont they- all the most chaotic countries are the ones where business thrive arent theyChaos
AGain your own view of chaos counters your fairy tale view of what will happen economically afterwards
tmhnyour questions are pirely acamdeic, irrelevant
Yes the actual facts abd true answers sure dont matter to you
. Listen to Boris today, he's on the same page as me
YOu are both telling fibs and making things up then,
through the IMF not through the EU so we cannot escape it can we - dont worry it rhetoricalGreece blows up, contagion, we are obliged to oay into rescue/stablisation fund/Christmas gift plan etc
I have already Voted Leave ... 😛
I feel dirty postal voting ... 🙁
Greece blows up, contagion, we are obliged to oay into rescue/stablisation fund/Christmas gift plan etc
Oh yes, out of the EU all this stops at our shores. You really must be a **** to imagine that!
(EDIT: Hmm - I see the swear filter has spoiled my little pun by editing the name of an old king of Denmark, England and Norway. You will have to guess what it was)
I appreciate that Farage had only a middling City career in commodities and so his grasp of the basics of finance are probably tenuous at best and that Gove has yet to get his mitts on the keys to #11 (the end that justifies the - lies - means) but you have to wonder at the logic that prefers unsecured exposure to any potential Greek ballot to legally binding fully collateralised exposure.
"Take control" of stupid financial decisiosn where the cloud of xenophobia and hatred of the Greeks trumps basic financial concepts of risk and return. Is this the future that the BSers promise us? Financial incompetence.....
You heard this during the Scottish referendum. Aye, it doesn't matter if we are worse off, as long as we have control pal....
How much more tosh will be served up over the next two weeks or so?
How much more tosh will be served up over the next two weeks or so?
Well I, for one, am concerned that EU membership is spoiling our results in Eurovision. I'm sure Boris and Nigel will sort that out.
Just for fun (!) I have been reading the text of the exchange between Jacob Rees-Mogg and Mark Carney at the TSC over breakfast.
JR-M is doing his best to catch Carney out but the Governor outplays the ex-fund manager with aplomb. Its an amusing exchange!!!
@mrleb you are confusing short term volatility where hot money repositions and long term fundamental value based fx rates. Without the UK as a member the EU is much weaker and as such its currency must fall. The Swiss currency is so strong as its been the beneficiary of significant inflows not least as they are not in the EU
Come off it.
You can't blame short term for the markets state of mind over Brexit.
As for the Swiss Franc? A lot of good a strong Franc is doing them at the moment!
You will have to guess what it was
Tried by I can note work it out.
Someone on radio 4 saying that we are under risk due to criminals listing 50- though many eem to be in prison at the moment.
I was wondering how many of our British born "hardened criminal" are living elsewhere in the EU - certainly we send a fair few to the "costa del Crime". I am sure jamby will be along soon to complain about project fear 😉
anyone else seeing the 'Vote Leave' adverts on STW?
No, br, if I try to view a forum page with the ads I get a stop script message which won't go a way and gives me three options "continue" (which doesn't lead to continuing), "cancel" which doesn't stop it, and "debug" which when I examine the script shows me a huge "singletrack" made up of mainly 8s.
My god, this is a shanner of a discussion, from all sides! 😆
"A shanner" - love that old phrase - but come on Joe, elevate it for us....
My questions would arise around how do you democratize the EU? I believe in the EU as a concept, as I believe in a border-less world, but I can see where the accusations of an anti-democratic EU, controlled by elites and bankers come from, as well, that's essentially what it is.
The questions I would like to see discussed are how do you create democracies on this kind of large scale. As to be honest they are broken even on the level of the UK(and I don't just mean in a Scottish sense, I'm well aware we have more democracy that a lot of parts of the UK).
But the world is converging into these large blocks, there's no getting away from it, the nation state is ending. So what are the practical means to democratize these..well our block?
I'd like to see the discussion go along those lines. It's no a question of in or out.
I'd like to see the discussion go along those lines. It's no a question of in or out.
Well, as a start there is Varoufakis' letter here:
where apart from the Shakespeare thing he is right on the button.
Well I have been posting videos from varoufakis, that no-one seems to be watching mind you, but aye, pretty much where he is is the interesting discussion to be had.
You know what also annoys me, is the tit for tat nature of these arguments. It's completely counter productive, the "public" scottish referendum was exactly the same.
The discussions shouldn't be aimed towards each other, as that's just a route to tedium. There really should be 2 discussions on this, 1 from out, 1 from in. An both should be independent from each other, discussing the respective visions for each scenario, in an honest way. A utopian ideal, I know, I can but hope.
There are no ideas coming from either camp. Just noise.
An both should be independent from each other, discussing the respective visions for each scenario, in an honest way.
Where's the fun in that?
But really - how can we even make a single step in that direction when a good number of the participants will make claims that they know full well are false? How can we discuss maths if one party claims (without proof) that 2+2=5 ?
I can see where the accusations of an anti-democratic EU, controlled by elites and bankers come from, as well, that's essentially what it is.
Is this not just what happens with capitalism - vested interest and the wealthy get power - The toy been quote from earlier
Within this model I don't think we can really do anything tbh
However the veto issue is the big stumbling block for the EU and how t marry the MEPs and the countries. I don't have nor do I see an easy solution
A utopian ideal, I know, I can but hope.There are no ideas coming from either camp. Just noise.
Very true with one side dealing fear and the other side pedalling unrealistic hope with the odd dollop of [ immigrant based] fear.
pedalling
I know this is an MTB forum, but the word is "peddling" 🙂
Junkyard - lazarus
Within this model I don't think we can really do anything tbh
Well Varoufakis' very first point is that we can flick a switch, it'll take all of 2 seconds to change things. Broadcast everything within the EU on the interweb. If they want to have closed door discussions, they should need to have a valid reason for it.
Transparency is surely fundamental to a democracy, thing like TTIP being negotiated behind a wall of NDA's is a ridiculous situation.
you don't have enough time to correct my spelling - just be grateful it was a real word !
Off to read some of the Varoufakis links
[img] 
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best information i've come across on the in/out argument
http://blog.moneysavingexpert.com/2016/06/05/how-to-vote-in-the-eu-referendum/
I'd this even legal? Can Brexit campaigners sink any lower ?
"Fake fireplace with plastic log and orange light" 8)
Thanks for that link, DrJ.
My questions would arise around how do you democratize the EU?
Hmmm I think other areas of disparate states across a wide geographic area may have already implemented a solution...they elect a president.
The UK was particularly against that solution - so now our Prime Minister (who's not really democratically elected as an individual) chooses for us, which is nice 'cos we don't have to worry our pretty little heads about it. 😀
I've followed this debate carefully, being born in 1967 I've never know anything different, life is ok and being in Wales I would consider my country's interests better protected by the Welsh Government and the EU rather than the English government and besides just look at these f*****s - really, leave, are you insane.
Just to elevate the level of debate:
Joe (and others) - ok this is slight deviation from democracy, but I would repeat my recommendation to read the start of the HM Treasury analysis
The summary is excellent in terms of framing where the debate should be
[b]Much of the UK’s economic success is built on its long history as an open trading nation. Openness to trade and investment will be a key driver of the UK’s future economic security, boosting the productivity of the economy, which in turn delivers higher living standards, creates better quality jobs, reduces prices for consumers and makes households better off.[/b]The key economic criteria for judging the UK’s membership of the EU against the alternatives are therefore what it would mean for the UK’s economic openness and interconnectedness. T[b]his needs to be considered alongside the obligations that come with securing that access and the influence the UK has over those obligations.[/b]
Page 27 has a very simple diagram laying out how this all works together.
Brexit costing the UK already, the outies, must be proud
Just watched the Farage performance - pretty poor show IMO - I don't think it goes down very well being aggressive with members of the public. Cam the Ham, love him or loathe him, is much more slick.
What naive views on investors ... these are the investors that treat you lot as cash cow to be milked and a slight hint of change they will drop you like a rock. But the moment things turn for better they will be back to harvest you again ...kimbers - Member
Brexit costing the UK already, the outies, must be proud
Good time they are here to harvest you.
Bad time ... they let you rot.
True investors build for long term prosperity for the community they trade in so aren't that supposed to be their motto?
Clown v Statesman
Not a great show IMO. Wish I had gone for a swim instead.
teamhurtmore - MemberClown v Statesman
Not a great show IMO. Wish I had gone for a swim instead.
Are you referring to the debate on ITV now? If so I think your description should be other way round ...
Did Farige actually just claim that the damage done to pharmaceutical research by Brexit would be good for alternative medicine?!?
I saw the debate, as usual callmeDave kept on falling back to cheering/positive/upbeat sounbites. Shallow sounbites. One bloke put him on the spot. Tbh if he had been white everyone would call this person a racist. He's concerned about the way everything is going. How callmeDave is steering the country. CallmeDave says he went to Europe to negotiate and got everything that he wanted. He didn't. Sick of lying billshitting half truth politicians concerned about being the statesman rather than looking after our services that he keeps wanting to sidetrack.
Does the remain (scared to see a better future) think where we are right now is as good as it gets?
Some people on here seem to think a vote out will mean it's carte blanche to get rid of the NHS. Gawd knows how some people's fantasy minds think and get to that.
No, I think he was referring to you lot as a cash cow for those companies.kimbers - Member
Did Farige actually just claim that the damage done to pharmaceutical research by Brexit would be good for alternative medicine?!?
Does the remain (scared to see a better future) think where we are right now is as good as it gets?
No. As you said, CMD doesn't either. Next....
BTW its (sensible enough not to be gullible)