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No because we’re at the end of the process and it’ll be the last vote.
You think? Processes can easily be changed. What's the chances of Nigel Farage winning a whole load of seats at the next election on a best of 3 manifesto and then holding the balance of power in a coalition govt with a tory party lead by Boris Johnson?
If there was another vote, with eyes open this time and more immediate debunking of lies
There no evidence that it'll be any different. There will be campaigns just like before, operating under the same rules and they will misrepresent, contradict and lie just like they did before.
Who do you think voted for the nazis? By and large a lot of ‘ordinary’ people.
Which is the very reason I would like to avoid that by nipping the far right threat in the bud.
No because we’re at the end of the process and it’ll be the last vote.
I think this is hugely over optimistic. Whatver voting does or does not occur before we do or don't leave… the hope that everything will then be settled for any reasonable amount of time is probably unwarranted, unfortunately.
I would like to avoid that by nipping the far right threat in the bud.
since when is appeasment nipping it in the bud?
appeasment
Yawn. I've been very clear in previous posts that under no circumstances should we give in to the demands of the far right. That however is very different to listening and acting on the views of voters who may end up supporting the far right if they continue to be ignored.
Part of this process will be attempting to persuade them that they are wrong, part of it will be to take some actions which address their concerns, and part of it will be rejecting some things which are simply too unpalatable. Is this not how democracy works?
If after this process voters then go and vote in far right candidates, then yes, absolutely those representatives should be completely discommunicated and fought at every step. Or perhaps we can just keep our heads in the sand and pretend it will all just go away?
and part of it will be rejecting some things which are simply too unpalatable.
like launching our economy off a cliff with brexit?
That however is very different to listening and acting on the views of voters who may end up supporting the far right if they continue to be ignored.
I think history very clearly teaches us that the one thing that tends to popularise the far right is economic trauma. And what is the single biggest likely cause of an economic trauma right now?
You're barking up the wrong tree, I just can't decide if it is deliberate or not.
Yawn. I’ve been very clear in previous posts that under no circumstances should we give in to the demands of the far right. That however is very different to listening and acting on the views of voters who may end up supporting the far right if they continue to be ignored.
So we wreck the country instead?
Maybot ....backpacker of Europe
Is off to get her golden unicorn again..
Is the woman so terminally ****ing thick that she can't grasp they will tell her to **** right off.....it's like Oliver twist
dazh... let's look at this logically...
Let's take the 52% of folk who voted Brexit.
A percentage of those are the far right nut jobs who, let's face it are not ever going to be happy. Then there is a percentage of folks who as you say get taken towards the far right because they don't get "their" Brexit (whatever that is).
Then there is a percentage of folk who voted leave who are just too apathetic to do anything much at all. Then there is a percentage, who although they voted leave, would never side with the far right nut jobs. Finally there is a whole chunk of folk who have changed their minds since the ref.
So you are worrying about an overall small percentage of the overall leave voters and if you then take into account those who didn't vote leave, you are allowing an extremely small percentage of the voters to define your policy moving forwards. That cannot be right... especially when it looks like such a bad idea.
That said, I do fully agree with you that something needs to be done to address the fact that a whole bunch of disaffected folk felt so desperate that they were prepared to vote leave and/or were open to be manipulated by the media etc. In fact, even if the whole thing is cancelled, the result of the referendum should be a wake up call to us all and especially to the folks down in that Westminster that the game is up and they are going to have to do something pretty major to tidy up this mess in the future.. Otherwise this is never going away, how ever much we wish it would.
I just don't see how totally ****ing the country up in order to keep a bunch of angry folk happy is going to achieve anything at all.
Bit of a Brenda that one.
I just don’t see how totally **** the country up in order to keep a bunch of angry folk happy is going to achieve anything at all
Depends how much money they have and how long they vote Tory, can't see it's a safe gamble by the time they realize how ****ed it's got it won't be this election but definitely the next
Can you really not see the problem in reversing the result of a democratic vote which was held in good faith in which millions of people expressed their preference?
"Knowing what we know now, are you absolutely sure you still want to go ahead with this?"
Yes or no, it's not difficult and hardly antidemocratic.
“Knowing what we know now, are you absolutely sure you still want to go ahead with this?”
Yes or no, it’s not difficult and hardly antidemocratic.
And if people still vote to leave "knowing what we know now"
Answers on a postcard to mickmcd in the outback ...oz
dannyh
Member
I think molgrips has pretty much done the piece by piece dismantling that I haven’t got time for so, yeah, that ^^^^^.
He has only confirmed what you wanted to read.
1. Another referendum would only prolong the deadlock for at least another 2 years.
2. The blind faith it will be different next time - when things are still the same - is the logic of a mad man.
3. Of course if the vote is a different result those who lost the vote last time will not want to argue the decision again.
4. Money wins campaigns. Big business dont want Brexit, so will put in more money to get their result next time.
.
1. Another referendum would only prolong the deadlock for at least another 2 years.
Or stop it dead Remain or Leave
2. The blind faith it will be different next time – when things are still the same – is the logic of a mad man.
Nothing is the same, the easiest deal in the world is dead, the leave will do no harm idea - dead, the options going forward are clear.
3. Of course if the vote is a different result those who lost the vote last time will not want to argue the decision again.
They are welcome to present a firm view of what Brexit looks like though climing 350m/wk and unicorns for all might not work
4. Money wins campaigns. Big business dont want Brexit, so will put in more money to get their result next time.
Well we might keep more of an eye on funding from the FSB this time
1. Another referendum would only prolong the deadlock for at least another 2 years.
That’s speculative at best. Probably bollocks.
2. The blind faith it will be different next time – when things are still the same – is the logic of a mad man.
I would be willing to bet it would be different. What is it about this that scares you so much, Brexie?
3. Of course if the vote is a different result those who lost the vote last time will not want to argue the decision again.
Set a time limit where the question cannot be asked again for ‘x’ years. What is it about this that scares you?
4. Money wins campaigns. Big business dont want Brexit, so will put in more money to get their result next time.
Ha ha. You are taking the piss given the proven illegality behind the funding for Leave in 2016. The other one has got bells on it.
Make it a binding vote. Part of the reason Leave got away with all their shenanigans was they weren't under the same scrutiny they would have been from the electoral commission if the vote had been binding.
Unicorns, Snowflakes, Gammons ... it seems that those blaming people of being ignorant and too easily influenced by the media in voting Leave - are the very people who are ignorantly using the insults so flippantly they hear in the media. Aint that just ironic!! or moronic?
Errrr, what is your point, caller?
Unicorns, Snowflakes, Gammons … it seems that those blaming people of being ignorant and too easily influenced by the media in voting Leave
Well since your last post I used the word Unicorn and that was it - did you have the reply pre-typed?
are the very people who are ignorantly using the insults so flippantly they hear in the media. Aint that just ironic!! or moronic?
Sorry which insults? We missing something here?
Del
Subscriber
Make it a binding vote.
For those that voted - it was intended as a binding vote.
It is only those who are upset at not voting the way of the majority that are clutching at straws and looking for another vote.
Its not that another vote scares me. Its just that it will not keep those sore losers from whinging for another few years, and calling for a third vote if they lose again ... then a fourth ... then a fifth .. until they finally get it right and vote the same as the majority.
mooman
Member
Unicorns, Snowflakes, Gammons … it seems that those blaming people of being ignorant and too easily influenced by the media in voting Leave – are the very people who are ignorantly using the insults so flippantly they hear in the media. Aint that just ironic!! or moronic?
So Brexit going well, then?
if they lose again … then a fourth … then a fifth .. until they finally get it right and vote the same as the majority.
Yeah, imagine people not wanting to see their country trashed, tying & trying again to stop that, the gits!
Brexit going well? I shall tell you in April
So the resounding thing from Brexiters is not how well it's going, or the endless opportunity (for rat cooking) or the wonderful way the DFDS Liam Fox has sorted everything else, it's all about why asking people is a really bad idea, not met any who can tell you it's going that well with a straight face.
I shall tell you in April
It's ok, you don't need to.
Why don't you ask these companies & see what they think ?
Sony
Nissan
Dyson
Panasonic
Lloyds
Unilever
Goldman Sachs
Barclays
Airbus
Flybmi
P&O
HSBC
JP Morgan
UBS
Ford
Hitachi
Toshiba
AXA
Honda
Moneygram
Philips
European Banking Authority
European Medicines Agency
Bank of America
Michael Gove warns NFU farmers in Birmingham of 40% lamb tariffs in no-deal Brexit
Link
I know many farmers around here who voted leave who will be worried.....
I haven't used any of your "insults" anywhere in this thread, Mooman, check. I prefer xenophobic, ignorant, selfishly self-destructive, fervently nationalist, senile, backward-looking, poorly educated... . Which ones are you ?
kimbers
Subscriber
if they lose again … then a fourth … then a fifth .. until they finally get it right and vote the same as the majority.Yeah, imagine people not wanting to see their country trashed, tying & trying again to stop that, the gits!
Agreed. Those people who have continuously cried at every opportunity and thrown their toys out of the pram, instead of accepting they voted differently to the majority in the country, and just looked forward.
This thread is all the proof anyone needs to see of the nasty and bitter sorts that Remain attract; the comments regarding the unfortunate workers at Honda and Nissan say it all.
This thread has had need of an angry Leave supporter for quite a few pages. Welcome Back!
So Mooman can't tell us what's good about brexit, can't say why it's going to be a good thing or what positives we have to look forward to.It does real like some pre prepared statements slotted in slightly out of context - did anybody else get their troll pack from Vlad?
You need to check out the remainers' comments on the Honda and Nissan thread too, Mooman. The only clearly stated sympathy I saw was from a remainer. You are indulging in that leaver trait of lying. In the early part of this thread my main contributions were to link facts that demonstrated leavers, notably Jamba, were posting a mixture of misleading information and blatant lies.
I haven't done much crying but have deprived the UK economy of several times your salery since the vote, and many other pragmatic reasonable people around the world have been doing exactly the same. Leavers seem incapable of realising that acting openly in self interest and failing to contribute to the common good will result in exclusion as the rest of the world does the same.
If you are no longer a friend and associate what are you ?
He’s Taking Back Control. Hadn’t you heard?
It's as if the brexit cheerleaders/trolls are reaching their final strokes of the ultimate danger tug, just hoping the grown ups don't get back before the end.
Folks are losing their jobs and businesses (one of my mates had to wind up his company today - putting another dozen out of work).
This is going to happen more and more so expect more folks to be bitter. Especially when, still after 2.5 years, nobody has come up with a good reason for us actually going ahead with all of this and all the things we were promised have been proven to have fallen by the wayside.
Why shouldn't people be bitter if they and their friends are losing their livelihoods?
Infact you've inspired me Mooman. The rate is .8650, that's the best for a while, time to dump some more pound assets. *opens global view*
done
All these redundancies... Many of whom will struggle to find new jobs and go onto the governments highly lauded revamped benefit system and fall into abject poverty for no reason.
It is really heartbreaking really.
Rising taxes to pay for it? Or will benefits be cut further?
The really sad thing is some of them actually voted to ruin thier own lives. Tragic.
https://twitter.com/LeaveEUOfficial/status/687892162583855105
https://twitter.com/moh_kohn/status/1097848148003827714
Mooman. Any non—bullshit positives to offer??
No?
Didn’t think so.
You lot will never be happy because no one is going to invent a time machine to take you back to 1952. And even if someone did, they won’t be manufacturing them here!
And with that, you are added to the killfile.
Taking back control.
This aged well.
Hold the red pen.
I reckon Toyota at Burnaston is the next.
Hope not, but when it happens it will not be to do with Brexit.
Chinny Reckon.
This is going so well. I can't wait for April.
https://twitter.com/PropertySpot/status/1097852933608259584
Make it a binding vote.
Is was that clown Cameron effectively declaring it would be binding that has put us in this position.
Throughout the thread I've been typing "it hasn't happened yet". I really felt that as the weight of evidence that Brexit is going to screw Britain economically grew that a Conservative (the champions of business) government would act pragmatically in the interests of their pay masters. I was thankful it wasn't Labour in control because I really felt Corbyn would have acted on whim and without a second thought about consequences.
Either I was wrong about who the Conservative party paymasters are and/or what they want, or they are being ignored, why I don't know.
On a personal level I positioned 50:50 for a remain:soft Brexit. I was saddened by the result but half expected it, there was still a strange feeling of disbelief as the result came in, and a detatched (because I have two passports and don't depend on the British economy) "silly ****ers".
As it comes down to the wire it's time to take the losses on the Uk investments on the chin and cash in, starting 10 minuites ago.
Even if there's a last minute remain the UK - EU relationship will never be the same again. The genie is out of the bottle, mistrust has replaced cooperation and Britain will never benefit from it's privileged "in but not totally" position again. Eyes have been opened, old grudges have been reawakened, going back is no longer an option. Financially at least, I'm out. Each blip up in the pound I'll be on global view.
Despite killfiling a number of our resident trolls and swivel-eyed loons, I do recognise that, deep down, in each of them, there is an adult wanting to emerge.
As I am so magnanimous, I can assure them that I never fail to apologise on their behalf whenever I meet anyone from Europe. I will continue to do so.
And no need to thank me guys, I do it out of respect for you.
This thread is all the proof anyone needs to see of the nasty and bitter sorts that Remain attract
Excuse me?
Excuse me?
Give them some slack. They are just starting to get worried.
Give them some slack. They have barely achieved sentience.
FTFY
FTwere saying that signs from Toyota werent good, same hold on investment since the referemdumb
Either I was wrong about who the Conservative party paymasters are and/or what they want, or they are being ignored, why I don’t know.
Some are pro-brexit, others are broadly unaffected and might even be able to profit from it whereas the rest seem to have been outgunned.
Either I was wrong about who the Conservative party paymasters are and/or what they want, or they are being ignored, why I don’t know.
For the paymasters to be in charge there has to be something to be in charge of, they are currently split ERG/Cabinet/Remain only coming together to fend off NC motions. The ones who could be under control are doing their thing, others are just out with a wrecking ball
This thread is all the proof anyone needs to see of the nasty and bitter sorts that Remain attract
Excuse me?
But it does it truly does. Since the referendum result thats all this thread has been, angry and bitter.
Moomman can't give a chapter and verse explanation about the positives of brexit because there aren't many. But anyone who sticks their head up and opinions that the result of the referendum should be honoured, or that armageddon isn't about to happen is insulted and shouted down. The contempt for people of "message" positively drips of some peoples posts.
Out in the real world the majority just want some sort of stability and accept that brexit will happen. But on here and on some other social media outlets there's a constant bitter hatred, it will do nothing to help but will actively poison and harm individuals and the country as a whole. There comes a time when enoughs a enough, help make a bad situation better or just sod off.
There comes a time when enoughs a enough, help make a bad situation better or just sod off.
No. I'll never go quietly. I'd prefer to be dragged out kicking and screaming. Likewise I won't let the people who voted for this forget what they have done. The loss of Jobs and livelihoods are only the Brexiters fault. The utter contempt I have for the politicians who have sat idly by and let this happen will also never fade.
It's heartbreaking. It's disappointing. It's embarrassing.
How on earth do you expect us to help? There is no making it better.
aww come on now cloudnine, it is time to get behind the mass job losses, the extinction of public services, the repossession of homes, the break up of families, the suicides, another generation lost because of right wing destructive dogma, just stop being so negative about it.
"This thread is all the proof anyone needs to see of the nasty and bitter sorts that Remain attract"
I'm now going g to work myself to the bone till the day I die, **** yes I'm nasty and bitter. A colleague's wife got punched in the face because she dared to speak Polish I'm public, **** yes I'm nasty and bitter. Were seeing a rise in the far right, a drop in living standards, a drop in life expectancy, the list is endless, yes I'm nasty and bitter.
Why should I be sympathetic to people who are stupid, and racist, and have ruined my future.
Whenever European TV channels want a populist, over-the-top and laughable point of view they just interview the driver of the black cab they are riding in. The bit they'd cut in would be:
, help make a bad situation better or just sod off.
And then quip, "and that's exactly what business leaders are doing, taking the second option when possible".
Taxi25 why should I 'get behind' my country being chucked off a cliff & me & my kids being stripped of their rights as EU citizens?
If Brexit was going swimmingly then us bitter remoaners would have less to complain about. As it's the epic shitshow we always feared it would be, I guess we'll just keep up the good work.
Perhaps "get behind" was asking for a bit much, but when we do leave (we almost certainly will) what are you all going to do ? Life will have to go on, are you going to remain bitter and complaining all your lives ? I won't, I'll be doing my best for myself and my family and by doing so that helps others as well. Sod off isn't a call for you to physically leave, but to just shut up moaning if you aren't going to do anything constructive to help the situation.
, help make a bad situation better or just sod off.
And then quip, “and that’s exactly what business leaders are doing, taking the second option when possible”.
Perhaps they are, but most don't have that option, we'll still be here.
The problem is, all the important people who help this country work, and survive, are sodding off.
And the rabid brexiteers just keep sticking their fingers in their ears and going la la la.
Give up and just accept petty nationalism?
Never. We will fight them on the beaches etc.
Life will have to go on, are you going to remain bitter and complaining all your lives ?
Where is the bitterness and complaining in this thread? I see mostly comments on what is actually happening and opinions around how it could be done differently. Remember, it hasn't happened yet so fair to discuss it isn't it?
What constructive things could people be doing to help the situation, what are you doing to help it?
Strangely enough I am doing something - a large proportion of my job for the last 12 months has been actively trying to plan for a no-deal Brexit. It is certainly a challenge mainly because of boring stuff like REACH regulations and safety data sheets and supply chains. All really important things that aren't easily explained on the side of a bus or on twitter.
So I don't see why you can't ask a brexiteer to provide an upside or get mad when faced with pointblank denial when real people lose their jobs.
Leave have had 2 year plus to come up with answers - the problems I'm dealing with were in no way unforeseeable.
most don’t have that option, we’ll still be here.
The irony being of course is that we do have the option of 27 other countries now. Shortly to be removed.
Leave have had 2 year plus to come up with answers – the problems I’m dealing with were in no way unforeseeable.
And spent it sniping from the background when people can't deliver their contradiction of lies.
But anyone who sticks their head up and opinions that the result of the referendum should be honoured, or that armageddon isn’t about to happen is insulted and shouted down.
That is generally what happens when people talk shit.
Free speech, innit.
Sorry, I'm with cloud nine.
When your personal, political and world view has been torn up by others you fight for your beliefs.
Exactly the same as the brexiteer lot have been doing since ukip became prominent.
When you see you country start to collapse, you fight to put it right.
My local economy is about to be decimated - Honda down the road and surrounded by sheep farming. That means my village shop will seriously struggle as a result. The sad thing is the Brexit voters around here honestly can't see how Brexit could possibly affect there little piece of Britain, even now......
But it does it truly does. Since the referendum result thats all this thread has been, angry and bitter.
Wait, Mooman said 'nasty' not angry. I'm angry, very much so, but I'm trying not to be nasty and I don't think I have been. The reason for my comment was that he was negatively stereotyping in a lazy and corrosive way. Of course many remainers on here have been doing same, and I've tried to call them out but my fingers are pretty tired of it by now.
But there's a key difference here. As remainers, we're having rights and identities removed, actual concrete things, that are very important to us. Brexiters aren't losing anything. They *think* they are gaining things, but at best they will be ephemeral and things that they already had anyway. They had their British identity, they had as much control as they will have now, they lived in a country with power and influence. They have diminished mine and my kids' opportunities and prospects, and they can offer NO GOOD REASON for it. So yes, I'm absolutely ****ing furious, and I will remain so. How can I not be?
Mooman is being roasted for supporting this destruction despite being utterly unable to justify it. Maybe instead of complaining about being picked on he should actually engage with the discussion and give us some positives we can look forward to - cos I am in desperate need of some of those.
Life will have to go on, are you going to remain bitter and complaining all your lives ? I won’t, I’ll be doing my best for myself and my family and by doing so that helps others as well.
Just because I am angry as hell doesn't mean I won't still be doing my best for my family.
Oh, and my friends' marriage might be broken up by this too. Both are suffering severe mental health issues so they don't work a lot; but one is French.
Mooman is being roasted for being a troll
FIFY, he comes, insults, shouts wildly, says nothing and leaves.
@ MG why does your friend think his marriage will be broken up. Deal or no deal EU nationals living in the UK will be able to stay.
As per that paper, EU nationals will have to apply to stay via the Settled Status scheme.
You know, the one that cost £65 then didn't, doesn't work on Apple devices, works on some Android devices, requires the applicant to notify the Home Office if anything changes in future like mobile number or email etc.
The brother in law is Dutch. Wife, kids, lived in the UK for 20+ years. Now has to apply to stay in his own home. It's ****ed up.
Those are still words and not yet law. As we all know, saying something as a politician and actually doing it, seems to be 2 quite different things. As someone with a German wife I will beleive it when I see it, and not before.
@ MG why does your friend think his marriage will be broken up. Deal or no deal EU nationals living in the UK will be able to stay.
Because of terms like 'hostile environment' and 'benefit scroungers' being thrown around all the time. Non EU citizens, even married ones, are now being sent home if they don't earn enough; she doesn't earn much if anything. Now lay that kind of negativity on someone suffering from depression, see how happy that makes life.
That policy paper is just a policy paper. And it keeps saying that EU citizens lives will remain 'broadly' as they are now. So not really reassuring. And when you look at how shitty the Home Office has been lately with the Windrush stuff etc, you can't blame her for anxiety can you?
Germany seem to be handling UK nationals quite well, some of my friends in Frankfurt have been written to (in English) explaining that they will soon have to register and explaining the process, which is simple and cheap. I believe this is now going on nationally (registration is down to the local town hall, so the letters are going out locally).
So in Germany UK citizens are being treated better by the German state than they are by the UK government, and a hell of a lot better than EU nationals in the UK. It is though as I expected it to be. Despite the rise of afd, in mainly the old east German states, Germany is not trying to appease the racists by pursuing an aggressive policy on non German nationals living here.
As one of my leave supporting mates said to me recently, at some point we’re going to have to move on. He has a point. We may not like it and may be in denial, but the reality is that we lost. Yes there are good reasons to vote again but there are many not to. I certainly don’t want to spend the rest of my life arguing about bloody Europe. At what point do we look to the future and try to heal the wounds?