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iolo
Member
Can someone please post something positive about brexit? Surely it must bring something good or the country would not have voted.
Upturn in allotment cultivation?
That's all I've got.
brexit will be good for me because………I have a middle class reason not to waste money on a dyson
This was proper funny right under your post was an advert for a shed .....took me a while to realize it woz an advert.
But made me think this guy's gone full native inglish
I think you have to see all viewpoints.
There is a difference between a viewpoint and a diatribe of shite.
Unfortunately the killfile does not work on firefox since the forum update.
Of course there will be some upheavals...
Sounding like a politician now. Well done.
Simply don't read him, works for me.
So Phil, any good news?
A question ....It's a bit sad as much as I Mock the type r I nearly bought one....it seems odd 3500 jobs aside ( and that's a shit way to even say it)but the world is going electric do honda make an electric car it seems all the big electric players were in Europe petrol sales will decline? So is it in evitable that this was going to happen
So is it in evitable that this was going to happen
Nope they had a really good plant there - as I said before it's one I hear really good things about culture and shared values
This is their electric plans
https://www.honda.co.uk/cars/new/coming-soon/electric-vision.html
I think the shock that it's causing says it wasn't on the cards
Well tough shit, you voted for this, now your *.
Nicely done. Celebrating the loss of people's livelihoods to win an argument. I'm sure the people of Swindon, like the people of Sunderland and Blyth before them will give zero ** about your sneering. Honestly the more I see this sort of shit the more I think they were justified in voting to the crash the economy if only to piss you lot off.
Upturn in allotment cultivation?
That’s all I’ve got.
So that's why cobyns a breziteer!
Honestly the more I see this sort of shit the more I think they were justified in voting to the crash the economy if only to piss you lot off.
I'm not sure that your sneering at his sneering makes thing better
& You really haven't thought that through... it's their kids who's lives just got bleaker, us middle class mtbers just have to buy on-one tyres rather than £60 maxxis branded ones, to get by.
McClusky today showed what his & labour leaderships priorities are & funnily enough, it's not what's in the interest of his union members!
Have you not thought about those who have endured or suffered 61 years in EU bureaucratic system?
Come on Chewkw - specifically HOW have people suffered under EU bureaucracy? Details please. Tell me exactly what problems it caused?
Nicely done. Celebrating the loss of people’s livelihoods to win an argument. I’m sure the people of Swindon, like the people of Sunderland and Blyth before them will give zero ***** about your sneering. Honestly the more I see this sort of shit the more I think they were justified in voting to the crash the economy if only to piss you lot off.
“I told you so” is not celebrating. I feel for any worker who worked things out and said to themselves “the benefits outweigh the trade-offs.” Any one of them who just thought “la la la project fear” is not going to get a lot of sympathy. I feel for the loss of income locally, for the ancillary businesses and self-employed folk who work for the relatively highly paid associates. If you’re expecting those who voted for this shitshow not to eat multiple plates of “we told you so,” you’re a poor judge of human nature. It’s probably best you stop trying to view the debate through your prism of a class war. While you direct your ire at the middle class you seem to hate more and more, the rich who hate us all are laughing their arses off at you.
The thing about this EU-Japan trade deal is that it was all done at commission level. Britain could have had a say and even a veto but.
It will work well for some countries with wine and cheese exports to Japan expected to rise about 30%. The main hits will be taken in the UK as far as I can work it out. And that would have been the case even if the UK had remained, but the deal probably wouldn't have been the same if Britian had had any input during the 2017 phase of negotiations.
While you direct your ire at the middle class you seem to hate more and more,
On the contrary, I am the very epitome of the person you think I despise. However, what I do hate is snobbery, and Brexit and this thread are increasingly exposing a lot of it.
You’re right, the working and middle classes need to come together. They have far more in common than with the rich. I’d argue though that the onus is on the middle classes to make this happen. It’s not yet an all out class war, but it will become so if something doesn’t change, and the only way that’s going to happen is to redress the balance.
So what would you like to see change, Dazh?
Viewed from afar I'd like to see the media reined in. Freedom of speech is one thing and the freedom to lie quite another. Lying through omission and bare faced lies have made Britain what it is now. That Guardian article saw Brexit as some kind of retribution that would somehow be a turning point because things will be so bad. That's bollocks, the turning point will occur when truth with perspective becomes the norm.
Change? Live Fact Checking of politics, every interview starting with the lies from the previous one read back to them.
Mogg et al being lined up in Swindon to read out their tweets about the car industry being safe
Full declaration of interests and newspapers being made to add in the interests of a particular MP eg "JRM MP for the 1800's massive off shore investments moved just before key brexit votes"
Floggings for stupidity
But more seriously I'll go back to compulsory voting, if you want to know the key thing that has gone wrong it's apathy.
“The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing.”
About 35% of the population didn't vote in the referendum
31.2% Did not vote in the 2017 GE
Forget the stuff about FPTP at the moment, get everyone out to vote and see what the real feeling is.
It will work well for some countries with wine and cheese exports to Japan expected to rise about 30%. The main hits will be taken in the UK as far as I can work it out. And that would have been the case even if the UK had remained, but the deal probably wouldn’t have been the same if Britian had had any input during the 2017 phase of negotiations.
are Honda closing their other factories within the EU & Turkey-which is in CU?
Swindon is the Honda's only EU manufacturing plant AFAIK. The other bases are logistics platforms which they'll still need so they won't be closed.
Edit wiki says I'm wrong, lawnmowers in France small engines in Italy.
No idea what they'll do with those, but there's no pressing reason to close them.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Honda_facilities
So what would you like to see change,
The short answer is the government. Even that though probably doesn’t go far enough. Specifically around brexit, there needs to be an end to the name calling, blaming and schadenfreude. I’ve done plenty of it myself but calling people gammons, idiots, racists or whatever will only make it worse.
Even though I disagree with brexit, all this talk about reversing it, second votes etc will make it worse. It’s rare I agree with a Tory PM but May (and others) is right on this. The wider damage that ignoring the referendum result will be worse than brexit itself. IMO the only way to avoid this is to go for the least damaging workable option, and I still think that will happen with some sort of deal between labour and the tories.
And yes, an end to the acceptance of lies would be a very good thing.
and I still think that will happen with some sort of deal between labour and the tories.
History says that would require a war.
Even though I disagree with brexit, all this talk about reversing it, second votes etc will make it worse. It’s rare I agree with a Tory PM but May (and others) is right on this. The wider damage that ignoring the referendum result will be worse than brexit itself.
Worse than no deal or worse than May's deal?
At the moment there is no will or majority for either
Even though I disagree with brexit, all this talk about reversing it, second votes etc will make it worse. It’s rare I agree with a Tory PM but May (and others) is right on this. The wider damage that ignoring the referendum result will be worse than brexit itself. IMO the only way to avoid this is to go for the least damaging workable option, and I still think that will happen with some sort of deal between labour and the tories.
Not leaving would be a storm in a teacup, Brexiters would look outside at the rain and would nurse their apathy and hatred of people doing better than them with a can of stella and gogglebox.
Worse than no deal or worse than May’s deal?
Worse than both May’s deal and labour’s customs union policy. Not as bad as no deal in the short term but with equally bad long term impacts. The only way forward is to start to heal the wounds. To use the war analogy, why kill millions when we can just skip that bit and start on the rebuilding?
I’ve done plenty of it myself but calling people gammons, idiots, racists or whatever will only make it worse.
But all scousers are anti-Semitic right?
Ah come on now, even I could tell that was sarcasm.
To use the war analogy, why kill millions when we can just skip that bit and start on the rebuilding?
Well if we can't have her deal then remain it is. I moaners will get over it and most of us will still have jobs
But all scousers are anti-Semitic right?
???
if you’re referring to my comment about Luciana Berger it was a sarcastic comment about why she’ll be defeated when she has the bottle to stand in an election.
And if anyone wants a clue as to how it could be worse, have a watch of newsnight’s report tonight about how the far right are using the yellow vest movement in the UK to mobilise and spread their reach.
It’s rare I agree with a Tory PM but May (and others) is right on this. The wider damage that ignoring the referendum result will be worse than brexit itself.
Ignoring of course that the path May would have us take is already being framed as "ignoring the referendum result", as it is not a "real Brexit", by many, including sitting MPs in her own party.
And if anyone wants a clue as to how it could be worse, have a watch of newsnight’s report tonight about how the far right are using the yellow vest movement in the UK to mobilise and spread their reach.
No one is arguing that Brexit hasn't emboldened this lot. But, you need to realise, that whatever happens next, they will not stop. They will not disappear. Any form of Brexit (or not) will be used as an excuse and fuel for these people.
And if anyone wants a clue as to how it could be worse, have a watch of newsnight’s report tonight about how the far right are using the yellow vest movement in the UK to mobilise and spread their reach.
and a full on crash will make it worse
kelvin
Ignoring of course that the path May would have us take is already being framed as “ignoring the referendum result”, as it is not a “real Brexit”, by many, including sitting MPs in her own party.
And really, this is something you can't ignore. If they said, it's not the brexit we want, fine. If they tried to claim, the public want a hard brexit, then that's dodgy. But to claim May's deal is "not proper brexit" or as some have done "brexit in name only" is deranged. It's not just "give them an inch and they'll take it a mile" as some suggest, it's "give them damn nearly the entire mile that they demanded in order to try and keep them happy while leaving most people behind, and they'll claim you've given them nothing at all, then take it 10 miles".
I don't know exactly where the line that we can't let them cross is, but it's definitely waaaaay back over there.
The thing about this EU-Japan trade deal is that it was all done at commission level. Britain could have had a say and even a veto but.
Yep it’s a funny thing but I’m sure we’re still in it for a month so TBH the blame lays at Theresa Mays feet, too interested in playing supreme leader than figuring out the uk implications of EU-JPN trade agreements.
TBH it hasn’t even got ‘nasty’ between the EU and UK yet and we haven’t left but.
Not wanting to be dramatic but I think the Tories have destroyed a large part of car manufacturing in the U.K. due to their incompetence and pursuit of Brexit.
The implications of a eu-Jpn trade deal was pretty obvious and the gov were complacent and thought that a few bribes would do the job.
dudeofdoom
The implications of a eu-Jpn trade deal was pretty obvious and the gov were complacent and thought that a few bribes would do the job.
What shocks me is how brain dead they appear to be by waving threats and insults at people we will want trade deals with.
There is a level below incompetent and that appears to be the standard they are aiming for.
Forget Honda. We're busy taking back control of our borders.
https://twitter.com/YvetteCooperMP/status/1097632132334346240
The wider damage that ignoring the referendum result will be worse than brexit itself.
As Brexit fixes none of the problems, (in many cases makes them worse) that drove people to vote leave to place,then why ?
There is no good version of Brexit, what will harm the UK more- no Brexit or 100s of 1000s of manufacturing job losses?
(And appeasing the far right is an obviously self-defeating reason)
If you’re expecting those who voted for this shitshow not to eat multiple plates of “we told you so,”
My wife works with some brexiters and already has an "I told you so" sign made up and ready to use come April.
And if anyone wants a clue as to how it could be worse, have a watch of newsnight’s report tonight about how the far right are using the yellow vest movement in the UK to mobilise and spread their reach
Because they totally get the numbers the French yellow vests do and are definitely not a few hundred ignorant lunatics at best.
Also, why appease such a minor faction? That just legitizes them even more, animal rights protestors had more political clout FFS.
About 35% of the population didn’t vote in the referendum
But if they don't understand the situation, surely this is right? Arguably even fewer people should have voted. Perhaps there should've been a few basic EU related questions on the paper that you had to get right before your vote was counted.
Those yellow vest folks.... So we should base our policies on a teeny percentage of shouty angry folk, who are and still will be protesting, even if they get their Brexit?
Shirley, basing policy on and listening to vocal but relatively small minorities is how we got into this mess in the first place.
What about all of the folks who are going to lose their jobs, businesses, access to medicines and huge chunks of their public services as a result of this? Do they not count?
Are you really saying that good, honest, hardworking folks should all suffer in order to appease a few disparate groups of knuckle dragging conspiricy theorists who have managed to unite themselves by putting yellow vests on?
At the point we are letting folk like that dictate to us, we are well and truly ****ed.
This is a public service announcement. The killfile can enhance your forum experience considerably.
Definitely. It's not the debate they want, just the attention. So, cut off the attention. Do not engage, do not feed.
I like to call it 'Taking Back Control'.
So what would you like to see change,
The short answer is the government.
I'd go further. The political system. Our current two party setup is paralysed, it's seemingly fit for the 18th century not the 21st.
Mogg et al being lined up in Swindon to read out their tweets about the car industry being safe
Then prosecuted like the con artists they are.
it’s seemingly fit for the 18th century not the 21st.
It wasnt great even then although did manage to handle a few serious events in a way the current lot are failing to do.
What I've noticed about the Honda thing is the amount of pro-remain people who are saying man that sucks, they're moving 3500 job loss, plus supply chain knock on effect. Those who are Brexity are shouting nothing to do with Brexit this is just their plan & not giving one ounce of sympathy or solution to the 3500 people who will be without jobs.
Those who are Brexity are shouting nothing to do with Brexit this is just their plan & not giving one ounce of sympathy or solution to the 3500 people who will be without jobs.
Yes because they are just shouty types. They don't do empathy, or sympathy.
dazh,
If we manage to avoid brexit and it brings out the worst in a segment of society, well at least we know who they are and we can arrest them.
The only possible reason for being worried about their nonsense is if you think those r'soles might actually be in a majority in the UK, and if thats true we're all buggered anyway.
Imagine the protests though.
They might start blocking the roads in and out of Dover, as an example of our lost future.
Maybe they could encourage all the (nonUK) Europeans working in in the NHS to go home in another way until people start dying.
Maybe they'll just run through tescos spraying chlorine on the chicken shouting "you could've had it all! You Fools!"
I think we'll cope.
PrinceJohn
Member
What I’ve noticed about the Honda thing is the amount of pro-remain people who are saying man that sucks, they’re moving 3500 job loss, plus supply chain knock on effect. Those who are Brexity are shouting nothing to do with Brexit this is just their plan & not giving one ounce of sympathy or solution to the 3500 people who will be without jobs.
the brexiteer MP of Swindon's first tweet on the subject made clear it was neothing to do with brexit, before he went on to talk about his contstiuents being made redundant..
https://twitter.com/JustinTomlinson/status/1097507582820995072
If we manage to avoid brexit and it brings out the worst in a segment of society, well at least we know who they are and we can arrest them.
Arrest them for what? Disagreeing with the government? Yes's that's going to go well isn't it. I mean aside from the fact that we don't have enough police or police cells to put them all in, it will pour petrol on the flames.
Arrest them for what? Disagreeing with the government?
eat_the_pudding did say bring "out the worse" by which I assume they meant violence as opposed to strongly worded letters to the editor of the Tunbridge times.
The main flaw I can see in the not doing something because the right wing loons might get violent is the chances are they will get violent anyway when things dont turn out to be the Utopia they want.
Especially if as part of trade deals with India etc immigration controls are reduced for their citizens.
Arrest them for what? Disagreeing with the government? Yes’s that’s going to go well isn’t it. I mean aside from the fact that we don’t have enough police or police cells to put them all in, it will pour petrol on the flames.
Nope, If they're protesting peacefully, they can carry on.
If they turn violent, harass or threaten passers by, they can get arrested.
Like it should be in a free society :0)
You seem to be assuming that theres a lot of them? Have you actually seen the size of the "crowds" that the pro brexit munchkins have been able to produce on the streets?
Its not great, and their collective room temperature IQ doesn't bode well for setting up any ongoing campaign that'll frighten the horses.
In any case, you've again failed to say why we should be afraid of their reaction?
Also, you don't explain why we shouldn't be afraid of the far larger crowds on anti brexit marches.
Is it purely because, unlike the right, they don't threaten to turn violent?
Thats a funny way to decide who to listen to?
The main flaw I can see in the not doing something because the right wing loons might get violent is the chances are they will get violent anyway when things dont turn out to be the Utopia they want.
I'm not talking about rightwing loons. I'm talking about normal working/middle class people being taken in by far right propaganda. This is already happening, and if it becomes widespread and reaches a tipping point we are truly f*****. The only way to avoid this is to address the concerns of the people who the far right are trying to capture, and I'm afraid part of that means not reversing brexit.
You seem to be assuming that theres a lot of them?
Not yet there's not, but there's a lot more than there were before brexit. Back then it was a dozen or so EDL nutters looking stupid in city centres, now there are hundreds on these yellow vested impromptu 'actions'. If it reaches thousands then we're in trouble. Brexit is a lightning rod for the far right. They want it to be cancelled as it'll send thousands or more straight into their arms.
Yes, let’s appease “legitimate concerns.” As identified by the likes of Farage, Yaxley-Lennon, etc. I suppose the bonus is that it’ll piss off a load of middle class ****ers.
brexit won't address there concerns either, and it will limit the governments ability to do so, even if it is a socialist government after the next election.
Giving in to right wing propaganda and scapegoating is not going to do anything for those already victimised by the last 40 years no-leberal push, it will just make it worse.
And to be honest dazh, you are coming across like an alt-right propagandist yourself, trying to blame the "educated liberals" calling anyone who doesn't agree with you a middle class centrist. You are singing from the Bannon network hymn sheet of lies and misinformation.
Yes, let’s appease “legitimate concerns.”
Can you really not see the problem in reversing the result of a democratic vote which was held in good faith in which millions of people expressed their preference? It's not appeasement, it's democracy. It's imperfect, and it sometimes results in things we don't like, but it has to be respected for pretty obvious reasons. The alternative is something different to democracy, and that's a path that I think is far more terrifying than not being in he EU.
And to be honest dazh, you are coming across like an alt-right propagandist yourself, trying to blame the “educated liberals” calling anyone who doesn’t agree with you a middle class centrist.
And where have I done that? I haven't called anyone anything. And I fail to understand how you construe an opinion which is wholly based on stopping the alt-right or whatever you want to call them is beyond me.
The alternative is something different to democracy, and that’s a path that I think is far more terrifying than not being in he EU.
Utter shite, sorry Daz but it is, if there is overwhelming support for Breexit there will be a vote for the deal proposed.
It’s imperfect, and it sometimes results in things we don’t like, but it has to be respected for pretty obvious reasons.
That's why a final say, after we've been through the last two years and are approaching the point of no return, is the only way out. It's not 'endless do-overs' obviously, because if we remain there won't be another; if we leave there can't be another. It's a final say.
a democratic vote which was held in good faith
Sorry, couldn't get past that bit, I'm afraid.
Fail.
Ever heard of Arron Banks? What about the £350m a week for the NHS?
Behave yourself.
Can you really not see the problem in reversing the result of a democratic vote which was held in good faith in which millions of people expressed their preference?
The referendum was not held in good faith, it was labelled as advisory and made obligatory after the fact. It was full of lies, dark money, foreign interference and dubious techniques. It was a vote for remain against an array of options rolled into one banner of "leave". Following the result will not bring "peace in our time" it will just be the start of the war on the poor and middle classes. Only the hyper rich already hiding their money in offshore havens will benefit.
It is not democratic to implement the corrupt result, it is democratic to let the people vote on the real options now on the table.
dazh, if Brexit does happen it must not be to appease those who voted for it. It must be because it's a good idea. The evidence seems to suggest it isn't.
Yup, the vote was advisory. If it had been otherwise the amount of illegal shennanigans that went on would have legally voided the result (according to legal twitter).
In any case if we want dazh to start arguing for stopping brexit i guess we just have to maybe get some blue vests and set fire to a few things .. That should be enough of an intellectual tour de force to get him to care what we think.
To be fair to dazh, the one thing that needs to be done above all is to take account of why people voted as they did.
Have a look at @femi_sorry on twitter. I like his attitude of going around talking (and listening) to people who voted for brexit. They're not all racist nutjobs, not all unwilling to explain why they did it, and not all unwilling to say (when the truth is explained), that they may have made a mistake.
But as Jesus himself once said "The right wing nutters will always be with us. Ineffectual, impotent tossers the lot of em'"
if Brexit does happen it must not be to appease those who voted for it. It must be because it’s a good idea. The evidence seems to suggest it isn’t.
The evidence suggests that a tory government isn't a good idea, yet we still accept it when they win an election. The logical conclusion of this line of thought is that we should get rid of democracy as the people can't be trusted to make their own decisions. So what type of autocracy would you prefer?
And meanwhile....
Another warning of the rapidly developing far right threat.
The logical conclusion of this line of thought is that we should get rid of democracy as the people can’t be trusted to make their own decisions.
But democracy is the only option, so the logical conculsion of both those facts is that we need to educate the population on what they are voting for, and how to view the media. As with almost everything, education is the bottom line.
How the hell, in a democracy, do we not have basic political and economic education in schools? It's insane.
The logical conclusion of this line of thought is that we should get rid of democracy as the people can’t be trusted to make their own decisions.
Another logical conclusion would be that it is more democratic to allow people a chance to reaffirm their support when they are in possession of far more of the facts. Brexiteer resistance to this is revealing.
Probably best to just ignore those who claim they are on the left, but are actually citing far right street protestors pushing for a hard Brexit as a good reason for carrying it out…
Right. I think the " if " is doing a lot of work here… worryingly…
1h ago 12:13
MPs have been pressing Health Secretary Matt Hancock on whether adequate supplies of insulin will be available in the event of a no-deal Brexit.
Speaking during questions in the Commons, Hancock said “I am confident that if everybody does what they need to do then the supply of medicines will continue unhindered.”
Vicky Ford, a Conservative, was among a number of MPs who said that constituents had contacted her about supplies of insulin in particular.
Hancock told her that the two major suppliers had prepared stockpiles of double the six weeks which the government had called for when it came to drugs storage for Brexit eventualities.
(From Guardain live feed thing)
How the hell, in a democracy, do we not have basic political and economic education in schools? It’s insane.
Totally agree. And without wanting to sound like a conspiracy nut, I'd suggest the answer lies in the question 'who runs the schools?'. Even with sufficient education though I'm not sure it would be much different. Many people vote on instinct and emotion. That's how they are influenced so easily by egotists like JRM, Farage and Yaxley-Lennon.
but are actually citing far right street protestors pushing for a hard Brexit as a good reason for carrying it out
You seem to be confusing acknowledging the democratically expressed will of the voters with appeasement of the far right. Is it really that hard to understand?
Probably best to just ignore those who claim they are on the left, but are actually citing far right street protestors pushing for a hard Brexit as a good reason for carrying it out…
I think you might be on to something there.............
Hancock said “I am confident that if everybody does what they need to do then the supply of medicines will continue unhindered.”
As with the rest of this fiasco, I presume 'everybody' has not actually been told what they 'need to do' and are just expected to read it in the runes?
Note the vagueness combined with the instant creation of a scapegoat (anyone other than himself). Very neat. Very easy to spot if you know what to look for.
Can you really not see the problem in reversing the result of a democratic vote which was held in good faith in which millions of people expressed their preference? It’s not appeasement, it’s democracy. It’s imperfect, and it sometimes results in things we don’t like, but it has to be respected for pretty obvious reasons.
Boaty McBoatface
the democratically expressed will of the voters
We all know people who voted Leave. But does anyone know someone who voted Leave and feels that we are on course for getting "what they voted for" next month? I don't.
Hancock said “I am confident that if everybody does what they need to do then the supply of medicines will continue unhindered.”
I’m confident I’ll win the euromillions tonight, if the draw machine does what it needs to do, my needs will be met unhindered, despite me quitting my job and having not bought a ticket.
It’s imperfect, and it sometimes results in things we don’t like, but it has to be respected for pretty obvious reasons.
it has been respected, weve had the biggest increase in civil servants since the war, Brexit wage bill alone at Whutehall is >£2bn, at a time when we depserately need more police, NHS staff, social workers every other aspect of government has been put on hold for 3 years, ata time when we desperately need a rethink of welfare, taxation, education healthcare.
the referendum result has seen the biggest political enterprise in my lifetime, teh last thing thats happened is that the vote has not been respected or ignored, far from it
that brexit unicorns dont exist is the problem here
meanwhile there are 10s of 1000s of job losses lining up, the collapse in ivestment since the ref is the canary in the coalmine, we're starting to feel brexits effects in the already vulnerable auto industry, but manufacturing investment has stalled accross al industries, carney specifically warned about this in his global outlook speech
But does anyone know someone who voted Leave and feels that we are on course for getting “what they voted for” next month?
I've come across loads of people who feel they're not getting what they voted for because we're not (yet) leaving with no deal. They see all talk of deals, backstops, customs unions etc as a betrayal. It's pointless trying to argue with them about how 'brexit' was never properly defined, because to them it really is a binary choice between in and out. Hence why I've formed a view that the only hope of avoiding meltdown is a watered down brexit which satisfies enough of these people to avoid opening the floodgates of misdirected anger. Whether we remainers (and yes, I am one) like it or not these people prioritise the sacrocancy of democracy above economic armageddon.
They see all talk of deals, backstops, customs unions etc as a betrayal.
Hence why I’ve formed a view that the only hope of avoiding meltdown is a watered down brexit…
So, they don't get what they say they voted for? I thought you were against that, no matter what the cost? You say we must appease people, by pushing for a future that, going by your own words, will be seen by them as a betrayal?
I’ve come across loads of people who feel they’re not getting what they voted for because we’re not (yet) leaving with no deal. They see all talk of deals, backstops, customs unions etc as a betrayal. It’s pointless trying to argue with them about how ‘brexit’ was never properly defined, because to them it really is a binary choice between in and out.
Then you are dealing with a minority, strangely enough there has been a lot of polling and info gathering that politicians and others are ignoring. Appitite for no deal is low, it's the default for a small number of people. Plenty have changed their minds in many ways. Some have become more entrenched. Your listening to the vocal minority who defy logic at every turn and expecting to make policy based on that. That is not respecting democracy.
like it or not these people prioritise the sacrocancy of democracy above economic armageddon.
Yet you still keep arguing against a further democratic option.
Lets have a vote for the options now available, and if the vote is still leave, then god help us, but that will be democracy, not the sham of 2 years ago.
Hence why I’ve formed a view that the only hope of avoiding meltdown is a watered down brexit which satisfies enough of these people
do u really think that they wonr be whipped into a frenzy of BRINO outrage by the likes of farage, mogg, johnson, the mail, sun etc
every time the EU makes a decision we have to follow, with no say in the matter
You say we must appease people
No I've never said we must appease people. You really should be more careful with that word with all the historical connotations it has. These are voters, not nazi imperialists.
do u really think that they wonr be whipped into a frenzy of BRINO outrage by the likes of farage, mogg, johnson, the mail, sun etc
Nope, but it'll be a lot less of a frenzy than if it's cancelled altogether and will avoid a constitutional and political crisis which we can't predict the outcome of.
Yet you still keep arguing against a further democratic option.
I'm not massively against a new vote although I don't think it'll settle the issue. Part of me will be quite relieved if it happens, but I do also think there are massive dangers with it that we can't predict at this point in time. A new vote could be possible but it would need very careful management at a level which the current political parties can't hope to achieve. My main worry with a new vote is the further emboldening of the far right (as I've said many times) which could lead to a tipping point where their support quickly grows from inconsequential to mainstream.
but that will be democracy, not the sham of 2 years ago.
I don't see why it will be any different. People will still be voting based on misinformation and lies. And if there is another vote and we vote to stay, then the whole thing will simply start again from the other direction. Stuck in an endless loop of in/out campaigning, all the while everything else is sidelined and the country dies a slow death from a thousand economic cuts and further polarisation of the people.
I’m not massively against a new vote although I don’t think it’ll settle the issue.
Course it won't, but it'll provide a way forward and break the deadlock.
I don’t see why it will be any different.
Because far more is known now.
And if there is another vote and we vote to stay, then the whole thing will simply start again from the other direction.
No because we're at the end of the process and it'll be the last vote.
A new vote could be possible but it would need very careful management at a level which the current political parties can’t hope to achieve.
Current parties won't be doing most of the campaigning. It'll be grass roots on both sides.
These are voters, not nazi imperialists.
Who do you think voted for the nazis? By and large a lot of ‘ordinary’ people.
I think molgrips has pretty much done the piece by piece dismantling that I haven't got time for so, yeah, that ^^^^^.
If there was another vote, with eyes open this time and more immediate debunking of lies (I think it would work like this as many people are more switched on to fact-check and the like now), and the result was still 'Leave' I would accept it.
And then I would start planning, seriously, for me and my family to emigrate. That would be the real acceptance for me - acceptance that the country really has lost its marbles - and why would any sane person want to stick around?