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molgrips - Member
scared of racists in their constituencies
Democrats, in other words?Tricky thing this representative democracy isn't it?
as the Jambfacts have highlighted Brexit has made everyone poorer, looks to offer not a sngle benifit and still people support it
xenophobia is a powerful tool!
Are they the traitors Len Mccluskey was referring to on R4 this morning.
with modern labour you can be a traitor one month and a loyalist the next...
the only reason corbyn wanted to vote against was to cause chaos in the hope of overturning the government - anything to increase his chances of getting into power - and then a hard brexit would be on the cards again.
with modern labour you can be a traitor one month and a loyalist the next...the only reason corbyn wanted to vote against was to cause chaos in the hope of overturning the government - anything to increase his chances of getting into power - and then a hard brexit would be on the cards again.
it was only the utter incompetence of the Tories calling the last election pushing their hard brexit rhetoric that made this vote so much closer than the 1st one, not to mention the many holes in the legislation, teh Tories's grip on power is tenuous, and all thanks to a series of unforced errors!
xenophobia is a powerful tool!
such a disingenuous argument.
TurnerGuy - Member
xenophobia is a powerful tool!
such a disingenuous argument.
Why? Just look at trump or any other populist movement that uses it. It's a very powerful tool at motivating the right group of people, some will pinch their noses and go along with it too.
[quote=jambalaya ]We are definitely working out the details with those countries just in a low key way given EU sensitivities. All signed within 3-12 months of March 2019 is my view
😆 based on what evidence? How long does it take to agree a typical trade deal (between two non-EU countries)?
cite
Why?
because it is continually used here to imply that everyone that voted out is a xenophobe, which is BS.
aracer - we don't have the expertise or the people to work out trade deals as admitted by whitehall and trade deals take 10+ years to do.
Turnerguy - what other reason is there bar believing the lies of the europhobic press or harking back to ( imaginary) days of empire?
the biggest driver of brexit is xenophobia. I have heard no one give any coherent argument that is not one of these things
It's easy to understand how people think their wages have been driven down by immigration. You can see Polish plumbers working for less, and then you see your own wages not going up, so it's quite easy to draw that conclusion.
Then the Brexit campaigns simply drew on that and encouraged that misconception, and the remain campaign did not do enough to correct it.
And a lot of people thought they were voting to give more money to the NHS. That's a good thing, isn't it? Seems like most people don't know what the EU actually does for us, so why would they vote to give it money instead of the NHS?
[quote=TurnerGuy ]because it is continually used here to imply that everyone that voted out is a xenophobe, which is BS.
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When one strawman isn't enough.
[quote=tjagain ]aracer - we don't have the expertise or the people to work out trade deals as admitted by whitehall and trade deals take 10+ years to do.
I was hoping for an answer from jamba (yeah, I know 🙄 )
TurnerGuy - Member
Why?
because it is continually used here to imply that everyone that voted out is a xenophobe, which is BS.
Just that the xenophobic voted Leave it that all were. Keep up there or read what people have said. We have also had many other arguments for leaving that are equally bollocks so try one of them. In particular I like eu superstate fear it really brings out the paranoid.
tjagain - MemberTurnerguy - what other reason is there bar believing the lies of the europhobic press or harking back to ( imaginary) days of empire?
the biggest driver of brexit is xenophobia. I have heard no one give any coherent argument that is not one of these things
Yes you have.
I've given reasons why people voted out in this very thread that are nothing to do with xenophobia.
I'm not going to repeat myself as your opinions are so infamously pathologically entrenched, but it was around the time in the thread that I suggested that Brexit was the fault of vocal remainers suggesting that only thickos and racists would vote leave. 😆
but it was around the time in the thread that I suggested that Brexit was the fault of vocal remainers suggesting that only thickos and racists would vote leave
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In particular I like eu superstate fear it really brings out the paranoid.
Just because you call it bollocks, doesn't mean people are paranoid.
There may never be an EU superstate, but ever since the ECSC that is the direction it has headed.
This is old ground.
Jesus H Christ kimbers, I used a smiley there was no need for that.
For the benefit of others, you can use adblockplus to hide offensive images.
of course t was more complicated than just being xenophobic, but at its core its dislike of the EU, you cant get away from that being xenophobic
loads of different factors overlapped, less educated, older, reading definitely not xenophobic sun/express/mail all big determinant of the leave voters
http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/why-did-people-vote-for-brexit_uk_5847d0dbe4b0bba967c1807c
im not saying racism (though as billy bragg said...) but xenophobia, which is fear rather than hatred of the other (but as Yoda said...)
One of the factors that differentiates a remainer from a remoaner is the ability to recognise that leave vote reflected many aspects - some right, most wrong - and that "we lost" a vote that we should have won.
Plus there is the delicious irony of those who campaigned hard for self-determination EVEN IF is had ST negative economic implications one moment and then lambast others doing exactly the same thing later. What's worse, the former were looking for independence from one of the most successful unions in history, the latter from a much less successful (and ultimately flawed) version.
Odd world.
but at its core its dislike of the EU, you cant get away from that being xenophobic
You can't imagine it not being xenophobic, I get that, but it doesn't make it true.
Some of my family voted leave (which is why I'll chip in when I hear the leavers=thick racists bullshit espoused by so many on here), that doesn't make them xenophobes.
I've mentioned before how much of a mongrel I am, having family from many different European countries. It would interesting to know which countries they're supposed to be afraid of. 💡
[quote=teamhurtmore ]Plus there is the delicious irony of those who campaigned hard for self-determination EVEN IF is had ST negative economic implications one moment and then lambast others doing exactly the same thing [s]later[/s] earlier.
fixed - and at least Scottish independence didn't result in an Irish border problem.
Kimber,
Imagine if I was the person posting the photo of Mr Farage there would be a riot. However, since you are the one posting that [b]everyone is happy[/b]. I am happy with that photo and his facial expression. 😆
[quote=sbob ]Some of my family voted leave (which is why I'll chip in when I hear the leavers=thick racists bullshit espoused by so many on hear), that doesn't make them xenophobes.
So what were their reasons for voting Leave?
chewkw - Member
Kimber,Imagine if I was the person posting the photo of Mr Farage there would be a riot. However, since you are the one posting that everyone is happy. I am happy with that photo and his facial expression
no , it makes me queezy tbh
I see he was in germany this weekend rallying his far-right chums, whining that Brexit wasnt being discussed in Germany 🙄
Even by your standards the above is bs thm.
All the member states have fair representation in the EU. I would say that is not the case in the UK government.
You appear not to understand that 62% of Scots voted remain not 62% who knows for certain what per centage had were pro Indy or indeed against Indy.
Isn't it ironic that some of those who campaigned so hard against self determination for in 2014 campaigned hard for self determination as they saw it in 2016.
Yet you chose not to mention that. Odd world indeed
kimbers - Member
no , it makes me queezy tbh
You posted that photo to "torture" yourself? 😆
He is entitled to do as he wish just like you are entitled to do as you wish, all within the law of course. 😀I see he was in germany this weekend rallying his far-right chums, whining that Brexit wasnt being discussed in Germany
sbob - Member
tjagain - MemberTurnerguy - what other reason is there bar believing the lies of the europhobic press or harking back to ( imaginary) days of empire?
the biggest driver of brexit is xenophobia. I have heard no one give any coherent argument that is not one of these things
Yes you have.
I've given reasons why people voted out in this very thread that are nothing to do with xenophobia.
Nope - not seen a single reason that does not fitr in with those 3 things ever anywhere
Fear of a european superstate? - a mix of xenophobia and belief in the lies.
sorry dude - you are simply wrong. No one ever in any debate has given any reason bar those ones I have given.
.All the member states have fair representation in the EU
Gordi, that is brilliant to read over a post lunch coffee. I salute you, my keyboard however, curses you.
So come on Sbob - put up or shut up
what reasons are there for voting out that are not xenophobia, believing the lies of the xenophobic right or harking back to imaginary days of emipire?
Nope - not seen a single reason that does not fitr in with those 3 things ever anywhere
What about my post?
'Believing the lies of the xenophobic press' is not actually being xenophobic, is it?
No molgrips - but its one of the THREE reasons I gave
1) simple xenophobia / racism
2) believing the lies of the right wing xenophobic press - a 20 year campaign against the EU
3) harking back to some imaginary time of empire
all the reasons I have seen on here and elsewhere are one of these 3 things or a combination.
4) wage competition from incomers.
I know 2 leave voters who say that was their primary reason. They both work as on-the-tools trades. They both say it's real for them not imagined.
it was only the utter incompetence of the Tories calling the last election pushing their hard brexit rhetoric that made this vote so much closer than the 1st one, not to mention the many holes in the legislation, teh Tories's grip on power is tenuous, and all thanks to a series of unforced errors!
It may have been tenuous, but they are trying to correct that. I always knew that if the eurosceptics successfully got us out of the EU that this is what would happen.
This government went to the polls to increase its strength with Brexit lost its majority, and is now using the repeal bill and the powers contained within it, far beyond what is required, to circumnavigate a parliament that it no longer completely controls, and is currently trying to force through changes to the parliamentary committees (how many tory mps sit on them considering their diminished presence in parliament)in an attempt to tip the balance in their favour.
The last election didn't happen. You may have voted against us, but no, we will carry on regardless and we will do whatever it takes to force our agenda through. And anyone who oppose us are traitors, saboteurs, fifth columnists, and are against the will of the people.
When it comes to personalities, this is classic authoritarianism...this is Teresa May. A career politician who will plough on regardless of people voting against her and will cling to power with whatever it takes. She will not go until she is removed, and she will not be removed until she has served her purpose.
This is what taking back control was about. Kind of amusing that the leave campaign hid that message in plain sight.
A few of my friends voted leave as they see the EU as neo liberal club. Their arguments could be found here
[url= http://www.leftleave.org/ ]leftforleave[/url]
I don't agree with them but xenophobia played no part in their decision
mattjg
Thats " believing the lies of the xenophobic press" as yes wages have been suppressed but its nothing to do with EU immigration
gordimhor
I'll give you that one - its a tiny part of it but you are right that is a reason that does not fit into the 3 things.
tjagain - MemberSo come on Sbob - put up or shut up
what reasons are there for voting out that are not xenophobia, believing the lies of the xenophobic right or harking back to imaginary days of emipire?
This is pointless as your inability to see other people's view points is legendary...
How about not liking the number of unelected positions at the top?
How about being lied to about the direction of the EU?
sbob - thats " believing the lies of the xenophobic press" as there are no unelected decision makers - some are indirectly elected as delegates / representatives of national governments but all are subject to democratic control or oversight
You guessed it - lies of the xenophobic press again
believing the lies of the right wing xenophobic press
You are blaming people for that?
Yes I am - both the liars and the gullible
You are blaming people for that?
Blaming people for their own ignorance most definitely yes! You don't have to believe the lies in the papers. Other sources of information are available. And therein lies the problem, the level of willful ignorance in society.
How about not liking the number of unelected positions at the top?
Who elects our ministers? (Remembering that ministers don't need to be members of the commons).
Who elects our chief civil servants?
We elect MPs, the majority of those support a PM, the Queen appoints the PM they support, the PM picks the heads of our government, they then work with our civil service, who mostly take their line, and get shifted on if they don't.
indeed Kelvin - pretty similar to how the EU works apart from all EU people are accountable to directly elected folk - wheras in the UK we have 92 hereditories who have no democratic mandate at all and bishops FFS in the legislature
You don't have to believe the lies in the papers. Other sources of information are available. And therein lies the problem, the level of willful ignorance in society
Well said. Very apt.
If I don't like the people in charge of the UK, I get a chance to vote someone else in every 4/5 years*.
The same is not the case for the EU.
That has nothing to do with xenophobia or the lies of the press.
So you get to call it democratic, whilst simultaneously weakening the power of a citizen's vote.
Interesting that devolution for the Scots and Welsh was seen as a good thing, yet the same from the EU makes you an ignorant xenophobe.
*I'm aware of the lords. I'm not trying to defend the UK's system.