[Closed] EU Referendum - are you in or out?

Could've sworn I just saw binbins on yon tellybox

I'll be honest and say that the majority of remain voters are selfish who are just thinking about themselves.

Be it a FTSE 100 company concerned about maximizing share holder value or the man on the street worried about a few quid or the prospect of losing their job.

At the end of the day it's a me, me, me outlook on the whole thing. This goes way beyond you or I and if people thought about the bigger picture they may well choose a very different box when voting tomorrow.

There are a couple of Asian types sat next to him so probably theirs. 🙂

Scaremongering is all the leave camp have ever had. Immigrant scares, refugee scares, bailing Greece out scares. None of it it real.

Now reality is that leaving will trash our economy (unless you follow the Minford route which won't trash the economy, but will concentrate the wealth in the hands of the few even more than now). Either way it trashes the lives of ordinary people if we leave - yes more trashed than now. And reality isn't scaremongering.

I'll be honest

😆

Why do you feel the need to say that. Have you been dishonest thus far?

jimw - Member

My sources are all referenced and with evidences linking to their site so they are all accurate.

[b]Remainer Ed Vaizey savaged by facts and has no answers against Brexit [/b]

@chewkw - Good on you for trying, but I'll be honest and say a remain vote is basically the following and sooner or later an even bigger issue will arise as a result of not addressing the EU problem by ticking 'out' tomorrow.

[img] [/img]

https://chrome.google.com/webstore/detail/singletrack-world-forum-e/cpgdlmbifgbhcoigdoeoooakijdionop?hl=en-GB

allows you to block users of your choice

I choose only chewkw for mine

And if it's good for the man in the street's job and good for the FTSE, what is the bigger picture Flanagaj?

I'll be honest and say that the majority of remain voters are selfish who are just thinking about themselves.

Say that to my face. I'm voting remain because I'm thinking about people in minimum wage jobs who are protected by the EU "red tape" that the Leavers want to streamline. Because I'm thinking about friends who've moved to Europe for work and friends from Europe who've moved to Scotland. Because I'm thinking about my daughter and her prospects in an ever more closely connected world. Because I'm thinking about the environment and science, both of which will suffer if we leave the EU. Because I'm thinking about how the NHS, schools and services will suffer when the economy shrinks during the 10+ years it'll take to negotiate new agreements.

I'm not thinking about myself at all - I think my business will be fine either way, really.

I'll be honest and say that the majority of remain voters are selfish who are just thinking about themselves.

Remember chewkw, that one cannot argue with idiots, so the idiots, however wrong, always win the argument.

The danger of comparing the economic growth and benefit the UK saw when it joined the EU is that the global economic landscape has now changed., The big...actually gigantic differences between then and now are the economies of China, India and Asia Pacific. In the same way we exploited and benefitted from trade with the EU 40 years ago, we could benefit massively more so by doing the same thing with markets that in 10 years time will make the EU look like a small corner shop. The size of these markets will absolutely and utterly dwarf the Eurozone markets.

Also most countries int he EU have an ageing and reducing population whereas these emerging markets are populations that are growing, very young and gainfully employed in high value professional jobs with a wealthy middle class so lots of money to spend and willing to spend it.

Also, we were the sick man of Europe in the 70's when we were in the EU.

However, despite that I am up for remaining for now and trying to reform the EU. We'd do much better exploiting the growing markets of the ROW with a reformed Europe. There is no desperate need to leave right now.

Do we have a 'foe' button on this forum?

Crikey, the EU bureaucrats is so powerful it is systematically stripping BritLand of what is left ...

[b]The Real Face of the European Union - Politics Documentaries [/b]

Say that to my face.

And if it's good for the man in the street's job and good for the FTSE, what is the bigger picture Flanagaj?

I hate the FTSE with a passion. Huge corporations who would do anything and I mean anything to maximise share holder value. Most of them would sell the family silver for a quick buck.

Short-termism?
I hate the FTSE with a passion. Huge corporations who would do anything and I mean anything to maximise share holder value. Most of them would sell the family silver for a quick buck.

Say that to my face. I'm voting remain because I'm thinking about people in minimum wage jobs who are protected by the EU "red tape" that the Leavers want to streamline. Because I'm thinking about friends who've moved to Europe for work and friends from Europe who've moved to Scotland. Because I'm thinking about my daughter and her prospects in an ever more closely connected world. Because I'm thinking about the environment and science, both of which will suffer if we leave the EU. Because I'm thinking about how the NHS, schools and services will suffer when the economy shrinks during the 10+ years it'll take to negotiate new agreements.

I'm not thinking about myself at all - I think my business will be fine either way, really.

1. Why do you think the UK will reverse workers rights?
2. If your friends have skills that the countries they are in need, then nothing to fear. A visa like I recently obtained from Australia.
3. I have a daughter too, but the world is far bigger than the EU and growth is not in the EU.
4. The NHS and Schools. Please! Over population is already strangling them and will just keep doing so.

Oh, did you have a valid reason in there?

Okay here is a bit of fun information from a politician.

[b]Daniel Hannan - 5 reasons for Brexit [/b]

flangagaj
I'll be honest and say that the majority of remain voters are selfish who are just thinking about themselves.

I bet you are voting in the best interest of Bulgaria's GDP. I find ot quite the reverse.

Ben, as fas as I am concerened you are selfish based on your views on Scexit. This is exactly the same as 2 years ago. How does it now feel to be on the right side now? 😉

I hate the FTSE with a passion.

The FTSE simply reacts to uncertainty. You can't expect false confidence during a period of uncertainty.

Maintaining the status quo creates certainty, abandoning the status quo creates uncertainty.

However despite the claim made this doesn't mean that change is necessarily wrong.

However, despite that I am up for remaining for now and trying to reform the EU

Sorry, but I nearly choked on my beer and had to read that twice. Reform the EU. Maybe read Junker's latest speech to determine the likelihood of that happening.

PS - I too would most likely be voting remain if I felt the EU had the slightest possibility of being open to reform.

Just out of interest, has anyone ever heard a proper human being use the phrase 'take back control'?

It's been a lengthy campaign for both sides. Happy voting tomorrow and let's not forget we are all bonded by the same great passion!

That of 2 wheels.

1. Why do you think the UK will reverse workers rights?

Because I look at the people running the Leave campaign. Because I look at the kinds of businesspeople who back Brexit. Because I know what streamlining red tape and removing barriers to business means.

2. If your friends have skills that the countries they are in need, then nothing to fear. A visa like I recently obtained from Australia.

Why not look at what all these generally young, healthy people can add to the economy, instead of trying to keep them out? I'm amazed how keen the Brexiters are on a planned economy 😉

3. I have a daughter too, but the world is far bigger than the EU and growth is not in the EU.

So is it better to work together when building trade with the rest of the world, or try to do it on our own as a relatively small fish who's just turned it's back on it's nearest large market? Our big draw to non-EU countries is we're an English-speaking gateway to the EU, Brexit throws away our biggest trading advantage with non-EU countries.

4. The NHS and Schools. Please! Over population is already strangling them and will just keep doing so.

The Tory austerity ideology is what's strangling the NHS and schools - immigrants are on average less of a drain on resources per head than native-born Brits. They pay taxes and don't use as many services. Whereas the half-million pensioners who might well ahve to come home if we leave the EU will be a pretty big drain.

Which size ones?

[b]It is still not too late to change mind to Vote OUT or Vote Leave.[/b]

DEVASTATING Brexit Response Lord Lawson brilliantly shoots down Pro EU Carolyn Fairbairn.

I'll be honest and say that the majority of remain voters are selfish who are just thinking about themselves.

I had unblocked you Chewkw because I felt bad. But your frantic screaming into the void is so very tiresome.

What about the unions (Unite, Unison, GMB, Usdaw, etc), then?

The answer lies here :

[url= http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-36087581 ]Government U-turn over changes to trade union subscriptions[/url]

Did you not wonder why this Tory government did a U-turn over changes to trade union subscriptions? Did you think it was because Tory ministers had suddenly changed their mind and decided that they quite liked trade unions after all?

They have a working majority in Parliament, the legislation could have been easily passed. As they did with the strike ballot changes.

The TUC did a deal with them. Don't touch checkoff, which would have had very serious financial repercussions for the trade unions - that after all was the whole point of the changes, why else do it? And we will back the Remain campaign (changes to strike ballots were of little consequence to the TUC/Trade Union leadership - it doesn't pay their mortgages)

The TUC did not throw its weight behind Remain until after the Tory U-turn.

The Tories aren't stupid, it was a very small price to pay. And despite the nonsense claims that "we will all be at the mercy of Tory governments if we leave the EU" the Tories, this government, is absolutely terrified of losing the vote tomorrow.

They knew that if they had the trade unions on-board they stood an excellent chance of winning.

It is still not too late to change mind to Vote OUT or Vote Leave.

DEVASTATING Brexit Response Lord Lawson brilliantly shoots down Pro EU Carolyn Fairbairn.

Excellent political posturing but utterly vacuous and devoid of facts. Pretty much business as usual for either side of the debate. The only thing that video is going to convince anyone with an ounce of inteligence of is that Lawson is a smug manipulative cockwomble. Something we all knew already.

They knew that if they had the trade unions on-board they stood an excellent chance of winning.

Now that is machine politics.

Written by a friend of my Sister in Law.....

I went to vote in the polls today
But loads of racists got in the way.
Well they MUST be racists for, you see,
I presented the facts and they didn't agree,
I argued my case (which I heard on the news)
But these idiots held opposing views!
Now I'm ever such a tolerant fellow
So I didn't raise my voice and bellow
And since all the very cleverest minds
Are arguing points of similar kinds
to mine, I think we can all be sure
That only MY vote is right and pure
And any who do not feel the same
Should instantly be put to shame

I went to vote in the polls today
But liberal lefties stood in the way
Oh, how I loathe those silly fools
Who tie us to Technocratic rules!
We didn't fight through two world wars
To now be overrun by Moors.
Well, I laid out the facts (which I've always known)
But they rolled their eyes and gave a groan,
For the arguments brought by intelligent men
Don't seem to have any effect upon them.
So therefore the only sensible thought
Is that all who do not think as they ought
Should be considered the lowest kind
And put away out of sight and mind.

I went to vote at the polls today
and couldn't think of what to say.
I'd tried to ponder carefully through
The spin that bent and blurred the view
But statistics that seemed to be persuasive
Were refuted by others as being evasive
And countered with figures that seemed to imply
The first was no more than a terrible lie.
So I searched for opinions from leading voices
But found that they'd all made differing choices
Yes, the more I looked the more I perceived
That all of the voters had been deceived
This wasn't an issue of 'With' or 'Apart'
As much as a test of the human heart.

I went to vote at the polls today
(Well, I didn't, 'cause foreigners don't have a say)
But if I had I would have made sure
That 'For' or 'Against' my motives were pure
That 'In' or 'Out' my mind would eschew
The disrespect of the other view
We've been given a say, but that's not an excuse
For the furious hate and the bile and abuse
Pouring scorn on our neighbours, on brothers, and friends
Whose thoughts have led them to different ends
So when the results have been announced,
And your views have been upheld or trounced
You are ONLY a winner in this debate
If you shrug and emerge in love, not hate.

The Case for Brexit Lord Lawson and Lord Owen

Lifer - Member
I had unblocked you Chewkw because I felt bad. But your frantic screaming into the void is so very tiresome.

[b]Time to vote.
Time to Vote OUT.
Vote OUT for your children.
If you do not have children then Vote OUT for people of BritLand NOT EU[/b]

[b]EXIT : Dr. Paul Craig Roberts 2016 : End the EU, a CIA Covert Operation [/b]

1. Why do you think the UK will reverse workers rights?
2. If your friends have skills that the countries they are in need, then nothing to fear. A visa like I recently obtained from Australia.

3. I have a daughter too, but the world is far bigger than the EU and growth is not in the EU.

4. The NHS and Schools. Please! Over population is already strangling them and will just keep doing so.
Oh, did you have a valid reason in there?

Do you actually have any positive reasons to leave that can't be achieved by staying in the eu?

Did you not wonder why this Tory government did a U-turn over changes to trade union subscriptions? Did you think it was because Tory ministers had suddenly changed their mind and decided that they quite liked trade unions after all?

They have a working majority in Parliament, the legislation could have been easily passed. As they did with the strike ballot changes.

The TUC did a deal with them. Don't touch checkoff, which would have had very serious financial repercussions for the trade unions - that after all was the whole point of the changes, why else do it? And we will back the Remain campaign (changes to strike ballots were of little consequence to the TUC/Trade Union leadership - it doesn't pay their mortgages)

The TUC did not throw its weight behind Remain until after the Tory U-turn.

The Tories aren't stupid, it was a very small price to pay. And despite the nonsense claims that "we will all be at the mercy of Tory governments if we leave the EU" the Tories, this government, is absolutely terrified of losing the vote tomorrow.

They knew that if they had the trade unions on-board they stood an excellent chance of winning.

Now that is machine politics.

To be fair mefty although important it's not [i]just[/i] about trade union support for Remain.

The reality is that the trade unions, with the exception of the RMT and Aslef (who incidentally are both officially anti-EU) aren't actually causing this government any problems at all.

With that in mind and considering that the rise of Corbyn in Labour Party and the defeat of the Blairites, which shocked everyone, including the Tories, it was totally unexpected - John Mcdonnell Shadow Chancellor WTF?

A few rather sensible Tory ministers have been asking whether this is really a good time to be attacking trade unions and giving them a hard time, and for so little reward.

Making things difficult for compliant trade unions leaders after the upheaval in the Labour Party puts them at risk and opens the possibility of the hard-left gaining control of the TUC/trade unions, with the probability of real trouble for the government, so they argue.

So I think we've got a situation of "you scratch our backs and we'll scratch yours".

I'm afraid we've allowed a wedge to be driven between us by the E.U. Its a real divide and conquer scenario.

Let's hope whatever the result of the referendum, we can all regather our senses.

The real worry is, when normality resumes the underlying issues will remain.

Best of luck to everyone today whichever side of the debate.

**** it a coin toss it is then 🙄

@plus one
Summary

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/jun/22/eu-referendum-five-questions-to-answer-before-you-vote

Ok lads..vote wisely (Leave)

====== end of thread======

@wolfenstien - just give us some good positive reasons 🙂
What can the UK do that it can't do inside the EU that will make things better.

Its hard to say.. both sides has sound points..but in history perspective..it wont go right. I like EU but only the strongest the original 9... overexpansion is a big no-no ..we wont see it yet... the fall of every empire is overexpansion... when will it ends..russia africa to be part of EU? ..for this i am out.

Its hard to say..

If it's hard to say, why are you so sure that leaving is the appropriate thing to do. Sounds like a knee-jerk reaction from somebody who is easily led to me.

but in history perspective..it wont go right.

Correct, a government whipping up a large portion of a country's population to believe someone else is to blame for the mess they have presided over has happened before. About 70 years ago, to be precise.

Zokes its hard to say because i did not vote because of the arguements of the current situation..i try to see things beyond now or this generation.. the reason of my choice is purely based on history nothing else.. whatever happens to current economy will eventually corrects itself.

Well trading all the good things against the chance that the EU expands into africa and implodes does sound logical...

Posting stuff from FB is nearly as lame as Chewy's stupid videos, but this is quite amusing

friday's going to be amazing! i'm going to wake up in my Union Jack jim-jams to the sound of a squadron of Spitfires racing overhead and leaving a trail of hot buttered crumpets behind them

I'll run to the corner shop past all the british children who are laughing and squealing with excitement as they make a beautiful statue of the queen out of happy wriggling bulldog puppies - with two corgis for her eyebrows!

bunting flutters everywhere and the man from the betting shop steps into the street - "guess what! England just won the World Cup & The Ashes & The Grand National and here's the best bit - Boris put a bet on it for everyone! you're all MILLIONAIRES!!!"

the red arrows fly overhead dropping fish and chips as i walk into the corner shop, get my morning paper and go to the counter. "how much please?" i say to the asian lad there. "1 pence, everything in the whole shop now costs just 1p!" he laughs, "leave it on the counter, i'm off back to ****stan - we all are!"

and he's right! outside in the streets jolly old nigel farage is leading a huge crowd of happy foreigners - turks, poles, romanians, syrians - there's even a few English people with heavy suntans mixed up in there! nigel's playing Rule Britannia on a long pipe, rather like the pipe that takes the gas into your oven, and they're all following and smiling and talking foreign, bless them!

just then boris flies overhead in a concorde made of Bank of England gold - "don't worry!" he laughs "I've cut out all the bits the French made!" and with that he crashes into the ground at 1200 miles an hour, along with the economy, the country and all the dozy nostalgic foreigner-fearing ****wits who fell for his bullshit.

grow up. wake up.

IN

and a quick repost from bencooper a few pages back
https://medium.com/im-trying-to-fact-check-brexit/fact-checking-brexit-the-conclusion-c1f56ba4cb70#.nhk7sssia
Fact Checking the campaign, forget the personalities see who's words are based on fact or fiction.

Trust me there are no spoilers/twists

@DrJ

playing Rule Britannia on a long pipe, rather like the pipe that takes the gas into your oven, and they're all following and smiling and talking foreign, bless them!

If that's what you class as amusing. You have a sick mind. Seek help.

Let's not give these [s]taunt[/s] twunt any more platform - the BBC has excelled itself in promoting UKIP this EUref and last GE. They need to be exposed as the nasty little minority that they are

Michael Frost, who is a leading Ukip politician in Bristol and former councillor for the party, made the comments in a group email thread sent to local councillors, The Bristol Post reports. Local resident and family centre worker Ahmedhakim Jahad emailed the politicians to mark Ramadan, quoting a passage of the Koran which reads: “Blessed is the month of Ramadan. It is the month of prayer and guidance, discipline and tolerance, repentance and charity.”

In response, Mr Frost reportedly wrote back: “Tell this to all the innocent people you and your type have murdered. Shame on you and the bastard scum who kill in the name of Islam.”

From [url= http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/ukip-politician-tells-muslim-man-his-sort-cant-be-trusted-after-he-wished-him-a-happy-ramadan-a7095471.html ]Indy link[/url]

ETA - damn spellchecker - doesn't know what a TWUNT is

Written by a friend of my Sister in Law.....

Just popping back in to say I really liked that poem.

Happy voting all. Whatever side you vote for, don't let hate win.

The perfect analogy:

[img] [/img]

😀

Chewkw, wheel2wheel, flanagaj - thank you for helping me make up my mind. The quality of your arguments really shine through.

Just stuck my Remain vote in the ballot box.

Chewkw, wheel2wheel, flanagaj - thank you for helping me make up my mind. The quality of your arguments really shine through.
Just stuck my Remain vote in the ballot box.

Well done igm. Best of luck with your decision.

And that's it, done, my vote is cast.

All through this I've remained an IN Europe supporter, I have many reasons many considered educated reasons.

Phew.

Whilst all this turmoil continues, the speculation and now to come the fallout and recriminations, I wish you all the best on your own casting vote.

Just catching up on the nonsense after a day or so away. Had to pull this one up.

The TUC did a deal with them. Don't touch checkoff, which would have had very serious financial repercussions for the trade unions -

That's factually incorrect. The removal of checkoff would have had a financial impact but not a significant one. So much so my Union is continuing with the move to direct debit.

I saw a Brexit politician named Dominic Raab on the tellybox last night urging "us" to "march on to our destiny".

What a dick.

As a (real 3 dimensional) friend over on the allegedly rubbish Facebook commented, anything involving marching always ends in something sinister.

I hate the FTSE with a passion.

How can you hate a stock market index?!?

Ernie you are correct again - JMcD as Shadow Chancellor, WTF indeed. An astute observation of current UK politics.

Any now we will have the amusing/appalling Tory attempts at kiss and make up. Perhaps May was the only one to come out with some smidgen of credit, as she largely kept her trap shut. Labour were a shambles - albeit quietly torn rather than nakedly split like the Tories - and the LDs largely AWOL. Good job this isn't an important issue.

The sad, sad world of post-truth politics but we get what we deserve. At least Farrage was fully exposed for what he is, so some positives.

Hard to see any politicians emerging with any credit - perhaps Sturgeon (cough, splutter) and Davison?

What topic for the next marathon thread? Celebrity Masterchef ?!?

Labour were a shambles - albeit quietly torn rather than nakedly split like the Tories - and the LDs largely AWOL

What topic for the next marathon thread?

for it is a wee bit Toiry/RW biased so i Have heard- focussed on the Tories at all costs and this harmed the others. I suspect they have been as busy just not as followed by the press

Or maybe many thought it was a good time to shut up and let others self destruct in public. Nothing better than letting your opponents repeatedly apply foot to mouth, especially when anyone who got close seemed to get covered in the foul smell
[img] [/img]
[img] [/img]

certainly that was also a factor
Fair point

Mike, that seemed to be JCs strategy - and looked to be working at first. But he also misjudged the fact that his supporters - remember all those real people outside the Labour elite- were looking for leadership not a reluctant (absentee?) landlord.

Still his discomfort will be short lived compared to the Tories. They are an odd bunch when it comes to Europe. Is it like some extreme fetish where (apparently 😉 ) the high makes the chance of suicide worth risking?

Anyway, good job that none of this is important, eh?

Well I've made my mark.

I've wavered in each direction over the last 4 months.

I even seriously considered spoiling my ballot on the walk in to the village this morning.

How did it come to this? The wrong question, at the wrong time in the wrong context.

The only positive I've been able to take away from this experience is that I am now aware that there is a thing called a "Shaw's ballot compactor" - a paddle for stuffing recalcitrant bits of paper in a box slot.

It's pissing down with rain.
At this moment I could jack it all in and get a job somewhere in the sunshine.
Nowhere in the world with sunshine will let me work except for Europe.
Imagine being imprisoned on this island in the pissing ****ing rain forever.

teamhurtmore - Member

Ernie you are correct again

It's a habit of mine.

A bit like yours of saying [i]"good job that none of this is important"[/i]

Lifer - Member

I had unblocked you Chewkw because I felt bad. But your frantic screaming into the void is so very tiresome.

[img] [/img]

There's a block function?!

Please provide further information.

A Labour MP was quoted anonymously on Newsnight saying they weren't that keen on getting out their vote because they thought they would vote leave. Some Labour supporters are very worried that they are on the wrong side of their voters and fear it could have the equivalent impact that it did in Scotland.

That factcheck posted by Ben Cooper is rubbish - first rule of fact checking - get your facts right.

Can someone summarise the last 167 pages, I lost track. What's the general opinion?

Please provide further information.

I think JY linked to it on the previous page. Only works for Chrome AFAIK.

Stoner - Member

Well I've made my mark.

I've wavered in each direction over the last 4 months.

I'm taking that you no longer hold Ken Clarke in the same esteem that you once did?

Possibly stupid question but can one take one's feral toddler into the polling station while one votes?

All i can say is, use the force troops, go with your gut. Don't vote on fear, either way.

Who's to say it hasn't been ol' Hush Puppies bringing me back to the remain side each time my confidence has wavered?

There's a block function?!

Please provide further information.

Junkyard -

https://chrome.google.com/webstore/detail/singletrack-world-forum-e/cpgdlmbifgbhcoigdoeoooakijdionop?hl=en-GB

allows you to block users of your choice

Who's to say it hasn't been ol' Hush Puppies bringing me back to the remain side each time my confidence has wavered?

It's this what dunnit, innit?

[img] [/img]

What true blue Tory wouldn't want that ? 😉

deadlydarcy - Member - Block User - Quote
Please provide further information.
I think JY linked to it on the previous page. Only works for Chrome AFAIK.

Thank the holy lord for that. 😀

A forum cleansed of its pebbledashing of ideological and verbal diarrhoea.

Shame I never discovered it until page 167 of the thread.

Possibly stupid question but can one take one's feral toddler into the polling station while one votes?