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To be fair, Kate Hoey is an utter ****!
You do this is an opinion piece with no legal basis?as it has no legal basis (as per House of Lords analysis etc
It also accepted there were other views available
Essentially its the govts position rather than an actual fact
Although there are competing interpretations, we conclude that
if agreement is not reached, all EU law—including provisions concerning
ongoing financial contributions and machinery for adjudication—will cease
to apply, and the UK would be subject to no enforceable obligation to make
any financial contribution at all.
PS the other day you were explaining how the Brexit vote was a vote against the establishment and here you are a day later quoting the house of lords . Are they goodies or baddies? I cannot keep up with your opinion[s]
@binners **** star ?
If the talks stall in October the damage just gets magnified as we move to 2019
100% certainty IMO the EU Parliament will vote "not enough progress", they just will to show how important they are. The Junker will make some grand statement aboit democracy. It's all dreadfully predictable. Then sometime in 2018 EU leaders (well Germany and Macron) will bang some heads together and it will be a frantic rush to agree something with minimum disruption for all sides. Junker / Parliament will be told to fall into line
a rather precise prediction theresomething with minimum disruption for all sides
Any chance of fleshing it out a little to say something we could debate?
This "respect democracy at all costs" thing is stupid. Just because something was voted on does not mean it is the best course of action.
This democracy thingy is proving pretty difficult still I see
So we have ignore the vote and use the current process - hmm, so no progress then. No shock there.
So we have ignore the vote and use the current process - hmm, so no progress then. No shock there.
Ignore the democratic process?
What's democratic about an overhaul of our laws with no oversight from parliament?
If you're so keen on democracy let's see you make a stand!?
That depends on what tariffs are agreed/implemented, no ? Many dveloped countries already have zero tariffs for medicines / components. Not sure what costs you are estimating.
He works in pharma so Brexit costing them big, not to mention the proposed immigration laws
Btw, I thought it was about sovereignty, not controlling immigration, is hard to keep up with what we were going for, as we all know absolutely no one was talking about jeopardising our place in the single market either 😉
THM: something can't be both democratic & irreversible
one day you will understand that its ok to campaign for something not popular like say christianity to be taken seriously on here or given special treatment.This democracy thingy is proving pretty difficult still I see
just because the majority have spoken one need not respect it as you show on those threads.
It would be a strange democracy where one could not object to the govt policy of the day or even the "will of the people"
That is pretty basic stuff.
Those assets you want to pull out of the EIB.… where do you think they are invested?
The word you are searching for is, "fascism".It would be a strange democracy where one could not object to the govt policy of the day or even the "will of the people"
[url= https://www.ft.com/content/266e996a-948f-11e7-a9e6-11d2f0ebb7f0?segmentid=acee4131-99c2-09d3-a635-873e61754ec6 ]Cake and Eat it[/url]
Please use the sharing tools found via the email icon at the top of articles. Copying articles to share with others is a breach of FT.com T&Cs and Copyright Policy. Email licensing@ft.com to buy additional rights. Subscribers may share up to 10 or 20 articles per month using the gift article service. More information can be found at https://www.ft.com/tour.
https://www.ft.com/content/266e996a-948f-11e7-a9e6-11d2f0ebb7f0?segmentid=acee4131-99c2-09d3-a635-873e61754ec6Theresa May, UK prime minister, is planning to use a major speech in Europe this month to set out her proposals for a “no cliff-edge” Brexit transition deal, with ministers saying any interim agreement must be “as close as possible” to current relations.
While that message will resonate well with business and Brussels, Mrs May will deliver a much tougher missive to the Conservative party conference a few days later, promising Eurosceptics that her end goal is still to deliver a “clean” Brexit.
About 35 Eurosceptic Tory MPs signed a letter this week warning against a transition deal that keeps Britain in the EU “by stealth”. The letter was intended to send a clear signal to Mrs May not to take their support for granted.
The prime minister’s decision to address Brexit in two different speeches — and to two very different audiences — reflects her two-pronged political challenge to protect the British economy from a difficult exit while holding her fractious political party together.
Ok so we are going to have a transition with no change and then a clean break.... So WTF, cake and eat it again.
She has to appease those who voted Leave for contradictory reasons. And she's doing well at it. Her successor may find it more tricky, as they will have to deal with reality not disparate fallacies.
How about the Irish border Jambalaya ? Still no answers ?
You can't forget those minor détails for ever.
teamhurtmore - Member
This "respect democracy at all costs" thing is stupid. Just because something was voted on does not mean it is the best course of action.
This democracy thingy is proving pretty difficult still I seeSo we have ignore the vote and use the current process - hmm, so no progress then. No shock there.
The democratic process produced a hung parliament which should be reflected in hung committees- no?
Are you suggesting we flout a democratic vote? Are you suggesting we change our democratic processes just to accommodate the Brexies?
Yes THM you are finding democracy a little difficult. Now stop being silly.
Igm. Read the post I was referring to rdo the second half
All the brexiteers seem to be adopting the same appsmug complacent attitude
We just bluff and bluster for 18 months, and do **** all, then as the eleventh hour approaches the EU. Panics and gives us everything we want.
Cake? Tick!
Eat it? Tick!
Of course the people adopting this monumentally moronic approach will be immune from the potential economic catastrophe this ushers in. They'll just walk away - like Dave sat in his shepherds hut - and leave the 'little people' to sort out their mess
I wonder if THM would be so laisse faire about the things if Labour were running the show?
My bet is no....
Democracy is continuous. It never stops. The motivations, information, opinions, prejudices, desires and fears of those who vote can and do change and democracy must allow the accommodation of those changes.
The idea that June 2016 created an unchangeable event where the people cannot change their mind based on what they discover later is undemocratic.
Continuing to campaign for a changed plan based on how far the Brexit reality is from the promises made is entirely consistent with democracy. The idea that any subject is closed to debate and change is not.
A nice walk in the mountains and there's another three pages to read on return.
I did think of linking some facts about major trading partners but won't.
Instead I'll link [url= https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apologie ]something for THM[/url].
There are three actors in this Brexit farce. The leavers, the remainers and leave apologists.
IMO the EU Parliament will vote "not enough progress", they just will to show how important they are.
Did it ever cross your mind there might not actually BE enough progress?
Then sometime in 2018 EU leaders (well Germany and Macron) will bang some heads together and it will be a frantic rush to agree something with minimum disruption for all sides.
It's quite sweet that the brexies think their best hope is that the French & Germans will swoop in at the last minute and save us from self harm.
It's also completely bonkers, if we want to play hardball, then yes the Germans would be hurt by tanking car sales, but their industry would be hurt infinitely more if the single market & customs union were to be weakened by UK cherrypicking.
The brexies are going to have come up with their own plan to save Brexit, not rely on our European friends, or own the damage they've wrought
Jamba
It is going to cost pharma as we will be seen as a third country as far as medicine manufacture goes.
So every drug produced in the uk will also have to be tested for release within the eu. Hence another lab, and vice versa the uk will need to have every medicine released into the uk tested here. This does not happen at present.
So every pharma company needs 2 labs, one in the uk and one in the eu.
You have no idea how hard it is to recruit at the moment and that is without the threat of restricted access to qualified people.
So yes there is a threat to medicine access in the uk from brexit and in Europe, all the people (being polite) who voted for brexit had no clue on what it entails, and if you don't think we will be a third country go find the ema guidance on brexit
Chris we've made concrete and workable proposals for the Irish border. [url= https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/638135/6.3703_DEXEU_Northern_Ireland_and_Ireland_INTERACTIVE.pdf ]Paper here[/url] Barnier has just given up and passed the buck saying it's our problem. Well we have proposed a solution (no border etc), he needs to agree. Davies is also quite right to point out that you can't solve the border issue unless you talk about future trade and customs. TBH I have not bothered to read what the EU just published on the border, they are playing catch up on the position papers
Kelvin we are not pulling assets out ofvthe EIB. We want our capital back, that will most likely be achieved by the EU27 putting in a fresh 10€ bn which is paid to us. All "assets" reamin in place at the EIB. Now of course EU don't want that, they want to let the assets run off (mature) and pay our capital back bit by bit.
@graham thanks. All that could (would) be solved with the appropriate deal though, no ? Are we not the EU's largest Pharma center of excellence ? If they put up barriers they have less access to medicines and/or have to pay a higher
price ?
we've
😆
100% certainty IMO the EU Parliament will vote "not enough progress", they just will to show how important they are.
My word.....
Your blinkered, one-sided arrogance is really coming to the fore...
We may develop a lot of drugs here but it doesn't mean we make them and that is the significant point.
Also and i hope this wouldn't be a consideration but for all new medicine registrations it comes down to priority, europe is a bigger market so the uk will be registered later.
This already happens around the world as it is, so it will have to be a consideration.
I have not bothered to read what the EU just published on the border, they are playing catch up on the position papers
Eh?
The EU had position papers out since July
Until a couple of weeks ago we had 4
https://www.gov.uk/government/collections/article-50-and-negotiations-with-the-eu#position-papers-
Leaving not just the EU but our own industries without a clue as to what our plan was
I suppose that deciding to have an election instead of doing their jobs might have been a daft idea.
If they put up barriers
It's not the EU that's decided to remove the UK from the ECJ and the EMA !
Besides which the UK govs official Brexit position is to create its own testing regime, (at huge cost) to somehow replicate exactly the work of the EMA for drugs produced here.
That's to try and prevent the delay in new drug registration that Graham is talking about, & it can take years to approve a new drug.
The costs will be huge but NICE holds back a breast cancer drug & the daily fail throws a shitfit, wonder who they'll blame when it's brexit's fault 😉
Still we've taken back control
I suspect Barnier's reaction to British negotiators is much like mine when I read your posts, Jamba. Now read back through your posts and put yourself in Barnier's shoes (or mine for that matter). Having sifter through all the hyperbole, sound bites and distortions of reality to try and find some substance from which to construct: there isn't any.
Kimbers they only just published their position on Irish border (I believe). BTW that earlie paper on the financial statement is thread bare to say the least. They think we'd oay tens of billions on that basis ?
MrLeb the EU Parliament is a total bit part in this process, hence they'll show some "muscle" by voting "no" whatever is discussed. Just look at Verhofstadt, chief negotiator but he is not involved in ANY meetings. Remember the EU Parliament cannot make laws, the Commission does that. The Parliament just just say yes, no or try and amend. It's the tail to the Comission dog.
Edukator, Barnier isn't in a position to negotaite anything. The EU have tied his hands. We are not playing their game and so nothing much will happen for now. We are not paying the blackmail request and have explained how it has no legal basis. Barnier has provided no legal analysis of why the amounts are due as there isn't one.
The British position as you write there sounds like you want a trade war.
I thought it was the UK trying to blackmail the EU Jamba.
Remember our opening salvo of give us what we want or we'll create some sort of tax haven nightmare* 22 miles off your coast.
*you may remember the details better than me I just saw it as small man syndrome.
Remember the EU Parliament cannot make laws, the Commission does that. The Parliament just just say yes, no or try and amend. It's the tail to the Comission dog.
Bit like government and parliament in London then. I know there is such a thing as a private members bill, but in reality...
You are being arrogant by pointing the finger for delays at the EU, whilst somehow the Gov is above reproach & being completely reaaonable...
Laughable!
But hiw can they blackmail us of we hold all the cards?
Jambs are u really disgraced former defence minister Liam Fox? If so I claim my free kick back from the genocidal Sri lankan government
teamhurtmore - Member
Igm. Read the post I was referring to rdo the second half
Re-read it. I get your point about the vote a year or so ago (I don't necessarily agree but I understand it), but on process:
Are we in agreement that parliamentary processes should not be undermined, that the general election result should not be ignored?
Because that is where I see the greatest (and I appreciate you may not) danger o democracy in this country.
MPs not doing something on the back of an advisory referendum (rightly or wrongly) is one thing. Leadsome trying to usurpe parliamentary sovereignty is in another league.
Edukator, we've laid our cards out - we want a "deep and special relationship" a sector specific free trade deal, our priorities are services and manufacturing as per May's statement. Canada has a sector specific free trade deal, no ECJ, no budget contributions. EU has 60 others like that. We'll do one more. As for a trade war if absolutely necessary I am good for that. Remember it was YOU who was proposing a buyers strike.
We will pay what is legally due, ie our budget contributions till March 29, 2019 plus anything else that can be demonstrated is a legal obligation.
MrLeb I fail to see how we are being unreasonable, not paying a ficticious open ended multi billion pound "bill" , playing exactly by the A50 rules ?
"deep and special relationship"
No you don't, that's what ended with Art. 50.
no budget contributions.
You've not bothered to read the UK position papers then ?
They're not very long it's easy enough, but they might cause you to intersect with reality!
Bit like government and parliament in London then. I know there is such a thing as a private members bill, but in reality..
Other than the government is elected.
Nope. Parliament is elected. Government is formed at the discretion of the Queen. Who isn't elected.
So Europeans can fly into Dublin ( and Belfast ? ) , and hen enter the Uk without any checks , same with goods ?
that is one way of taking back control on immigration . 😆
I'm expecting NI to join the Republic, or failing that, border checks to be at the British point of entry.