[Closed] EU Referendum - are you in or out?

nope , no border checks as per the British papers .

if that is the case, lots of cheap flights to Dublin coming , and extra links to the rest of the UK .

Easy enough for Ryanair to set up internal flights from Belfast to London . will add a few hours of traveling but worth it to avoid cost of a visa .

I wonder how much of a bath jamby and thm took on the failure of the eurogeddon fund?

[url= https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2017-09-08/eurogeddon-fund-betting-on-euro-zone-demise-shuts-after-losses ]fund that bet on euro failure collapses[/url]

Jambs, the Canada example would be poor for financial services

Re-read it. I get your point about the vote a year or so ago (I don't necessarily agree but I understand it)

Bit odd, as that was not the point I was making. You could try to read it a third time and especially the assumption behind the second bit

Are we in agreement that parliamentary processes should not be undermined,

Yes

that the general election result should not be ignored?

Yes, but not just the GE!!

MPs not doing something on the back of an advisory referendum (rightly or wrongly) is one thing.

Conveniently missing the elephant that is/was the EXPLICIT promise to honour the result 😯

Leadsome trying to usurpe parliamentary sovereignty is in another league.

Which is not what is happening, but never mind. Still no sensible answers to the challenge ahead of us. No surprise. Dinner with partner from Clifford Chance last night and tennis with one from Allen and Overy this morning. They could not give me any evidence to support the wilder remoans being made ^ either.. Not odd that 😉

Go on then, what do you think Leadsom's motion does?

PS - the rightly or wrongly bit covers the explicit promise. Personally I think honouring an explicit promise and there by damaging the country is a bad thing

Also, if that wasn't your point, I'm mystified as to what your point is. Feel free to try and express yourself a little better if you want.

Isn't every manifesto pledge an explicit promise ? And we all know they ain't worth squat....

No (kimbers)

IGM - ok, let's take it in easy steps. What is democracy?

Appears May's spokeswoman doesn't know what a majority is...

However, May’s spokeswoman said the change was vital to avoid long delays to bills through large numbers of amendments being made “by a handful of opposition MPs at committee stage” that would need to be reversed via multiple votes back in the Commons.

"The government has a majority on the floor of the house, therefore it’s perfectly legitimate that it puts to to the house, and thereby MPs, that it should also have a majority in committees,” the spokeswoman said.

Last time I checked it was a minority government - or are they now in coalition with the DUP?

THM - what is democracy? An apparently simple question but as so often not simple to answer.

Democracy - Greek, literally "rule of the people

Except we can't really mean that or we wouldn't need parliament or government. Actually that definition isn't far off anarchy.

So..,

According to political scientist Larry Diamond, democracy consists of four key elements: (a) A political system for choosing and replacing the government through free and fair elections; (b) The active participation of the people, as citizens, in politics and civic life; (c) Protection of the human rights of all citizens, and (d) A rule of law, in which the laws and procedures apply equally to all citizens.

And that definition seems to work ok. It allows for MPs and for a referendum or two, but doesn't tie MPs hands, excepting that they should obey the law.
And in this case Leadsom is trying to arrange for the government to side step the rules which is pretty close to sidestepping the law.
Agreed?

Alternatively THM, why not tell me what you think democracy is? You'll find it's quite complex and quite diverse I think.
And generally not favoured by those who espouse it overly strongly.

Lol he expects an answer that either makes sense or is not overly patronising ...

one of your higher quality contributions Mike, thank you.

IGM , so yes a good start. Democracy is simply the notion that the demos ie, all the people are involved in the kratos Ie power. That's what is promised. At no stage doe it/should it assume a given result* be that a good, bad or indifferent result. That's not its purpose nor is it an appropriate benchmark against which to asses it. So the point I quoted twice is simply a non point.

Democracy does not promise or offer any type of result. It is merely one form of political process/organisation. you could perhaps argue that it gives the best outcome if best is considered in some form of utilitarian idea, but even then...

So that's cleared up. Now the next bit.

What are the two challenges that need to be addressed?

It is merely one form of political process/organisation.

Several forms really.

hey say never assume because it makes an ass out of you and me but one assumes

So Europeans can fly into Dublin ( and Belfast ? ) , and hen enter the Uk without any checks , same with goods ?

one leaving Dublin would also be enter the EU with no checks , seems like a great deal to me

Ok several forms then. Doesn't change the issue.

So what are the two key challenges that we are faced with - with respect to EU legislation?

Democracy does not promise or offer any type of result. It is merely one form of political process/organisation.

THM, so you agree that all the people saying "we have to brexit, because democracy" are basically blowing smoke?

No.

THM - proper oversight to see things aren't corrupted, and ensuring people's lives aren't damaged any more than they have to be.

@mick into Dublin then freely NI for sure. I would guess we'll have something like API dor the leg into mainland UK or maybe not and just rely upon picking anyone up (and deporting) who we find working. EU citizens will have (proposed) 3-6 month free visas

Goods the UK proposed would have technology based tracking depending upin what they where. Also we don't cre about simple stuff, wg foods and everyday goods which would be consumed in NI. You are not going to be bringing in 1,000s of cars or other high value goods by the back door.. pikice spot checks etc can easily deal with that stuff off the ferries into the UK

Before that? Let me be more precise - forget challenges - the two basic issue (technical)

I ask this question in seriousness because (TBH) I am not quite sure of the balance that is being achieved here, so I am trying in my own mind to be very clear about what is being discussed.

The challenge during the week was that the sheer scale of remoaning - characterised by wild headlines and no clarity on the issues involved - meant that it was hard to see the wood from the trees. Another guest last night (good party) worked in PR and we discussed who was in control of the narrative here. Who has the better strategic communications team. The one thing that is clear is that it is not the government, They have totally lost the narrative here, and this has been going on for a while.

Google great repeal bill (crap name isn't it) and your get pages (highly manipulated) of newspaper stuff with little actual factual content or decent analysts. It's very hard to understand what is happening here. I am happy to admit that I am still trying to work (some of) it out

I'm expecting NI to join the Republic

Sorry thm but basically you have drifted to your tory roots(unbiased my arse) the 2 positions ar not compatible, respect for the referendum and accepting of votes on legal transition doesn't make sense.
That is where you default to the bad school teacher persona of being patronising to sound right.

Not as good as your previous post Mike. No need to apologise either.....as crap as starting "with respect" 😉

Goods the UK proposed would have technology based tracking

Still lots of froth but no answers to the basic questions

We need a bill under the second of my points, and if all it does is transfer EU based legislation into fully UK legislation then that's fine.
But as I understand it, it can't. For example if the current version of a law goes back to the ECJ then what does a fully UK one do?
So the laws will need fettled, tinkered with, to make them fit. Which again is fine.
But the government is reserving that right to ministers not parliament in some cases - now I get nervous.
And the Brexies are trying to change the committee rules to get more of their people (government people if I'm being fair) in the committees that will edit, amend and redraft the bill to see that the right oversight goes to parliament or government.
Now I'm really nervous - what are they trying to get through that they need to ride roughshod over the conventions of our democratic process to do it?
And what other parts of our democracy were they intending to do away with?
It's bad in itself and looks like the thin end of a wedge to me.
Governments are not to be trusted - that's why a strong parliament is necessary.

teamhurtmore - Member
Not as good as your previous post Mike. No need to apologise either.....as crap as starting "with respect"

It's "I'm all right"/Tory defaults status

and if all it does is transfer EU based legislation into fully UK legislation then that's fine.

Exactly, and what is the Great Repeal about - tbc, this was the one of the two issues that I was asking about ! So we are now closer to the same starting point. 😉

So the laws will need fettled, tinkered with, to make them fit. Which again is fine.

Agreed - and this is a massive task

But the government is reserving that right to ministers not parliament in some cases - now I get nervous.

Now we are starting to get to the crux? Are they? Do they need to? What are other parties trying to do, at EXACTLY this point? How nervous SHOULD we be?

And the Brexies are trying to change the committee rules to get more of their people (government people if I'm being fair) in the committees that will edit, amend and redraft the bill to see that the right oversight goes to parliament or government.

Indeed the TBF bit. Again we are the crux now - and far from the headlines and remoans.

Now I'm really nervous - what are they trying to get through that they need to ride roughshod over the conventions of our democratic process to do it?

Which is where - I suggest - we disagree, at least in the extent. As the HoL Ctte noted, there is a practical need here. The extent to which this is riding roughshod v being practical is open to debate and yet to be proven (IMO).

Governments are not to be trusted - that's why a strong parliament is necessary.

We agree again 😉

"technology based"

[img] [/img]

If you say so Mike.

we don't cre about simple stuff, wg foods

Not sure what wg means or may be a typo for but food (safety) standards is one of the many unsolved problems with the new border. EU won't be wanting lorry loads of chlorinated chicken coming over the border.

Who is going to do spots check on goods and people ? Customs ? They are struggling now as it is.
Same with deporting people ? Who is going to check ? The Home office doesn't even know how many people are here at present.

What's your favourite technology?

The wheel for me I think.

I'm expecting NI to join the Republic

There is no way NI will join the Republic. The South couldn't afford the North and it would be their troops getting shot instead.

Perhaps they could put those cat collars on everyone from the North. They could cross the border but no one use could. Everyone also has to pinkie promise not to do VAT scams with an un-policed border.

Could the North join the EAA?

Just want to post this for posterity so I can look back and see how right or wrong I was.

I hope/believe we will end up not leaving the EU.

In or out, did anyone seriously vote for this ongoing cluster****?

I can't see anyone "winning" out of this mess.

It's just like watching lemmings sleep walking off a cliff edge when you watch the news.

An ongoing Greek tragedy.

How nervous SHOULD we be?

How nervous would you be if Labour were in power??

An ongoing Greek tragedy.

How apt!!

We need a bill under the second of my points, and if all it does is transfer EU based legislation into fully UK legislation then that's fine.
But as I understand it, it can't. For example if the current version of a law goes back to the ECJ then what does a fully UK one do?
So the laws will need fettled, tinkered with, to make them fit. Which again is fine.
But the government is reserving that right to ministers not parliament in some cases - now I get nervous.
And the Brexies are trying to change the committee rules to get more of their people (government people if I'm being fair) in the committees that will edit, amend and redraft the bill to see that the right oversight goes to parliament or government.
Now I'm really nervous - what are they trying to get through that they need to ride roughshod over the conventions of our democratic process to do it?
And what other parts of our democracy were they intending to do away with?
It's bad in itself and looks like the thin end of a wedge to me.
Governments are not to be trusted - that's why a strong parliament is necessary.

I really don't understand why the Brexies/apologists are having such hard time dealing with the very simple issues raised in this succintl post.

Is it because their team is in power so it's all to good?

Surely they can't that selfish to willingly allow quite such a vast overhaul of our laws without any oversight??

After all, it's their rights too that are under threat......

Marginally more than now. I would rather have Starmer in charge than Davis but behind him, labour appear very weak on most of the issues involved. Their members remoans this week showed a very limited grasp of what is going on.

At least within Gov there are a few more wise heads - with Hammond at the fiore - that offset Davis. But only a few.

So it's a marginal call at best

Surely they can't that selfish to willingly allow quite such a vast overhaul of our laws without any oversight??

But you are very vocal in your opposition here MrL so i am intrigued what you understand by the GRB, which bits make you particularly nervous, and what you would do about it (assuming that Brexshit is going to happen)

It's not the GRB that makes me nervous, it's the transfer of powers from parliament to government on the committees.
Now the latter is not caused by the former but Leadsom and May are saying they need the latter to do the former.
Why? Are they scared of the scrutiny?

That doesn't follow. The question of transfer of powers relates directly to the GRB. I am sure you have read it. It's outlines why this happening, the reason why the HoL supports this, and the points at which legislation will be primary rather than secondary.

So you and MRL must have specific cases that make you so nervous. They are...

Let's not forget (1) we all are fans of EU laws aren't we? And (2) it follows that we do not want any delay in ensuring that we can continue to benefit from their extensive advantages on day one.

Interesting to read about the history of trade and sovereign nations. I got the idea that if the banks or traders didn't like what the 'sovereign' nation was doing they would basically pull the plug or organise a little take over. The hanseatic league or east India company comes to mind. Now as I understand it we joined the eu partially to offset the lost of our past control of trade from the empire as we could no longer arrange trade in our favour. It will be interesting to see what happens now as we are enormously dependent on direct foreign investment which in turn is hugely dependent on the current trade setup and the stability that the political, social and legal setup in the UK provides. So we are not masters of our destiny due to only the eu but mainly as we no longer own a large part of UK PLC and we have been actively running our economy in this way for a long time.

Free trade is great when you get to write the rules

THM - there are two different things going off at the moment.
GRB is one of them - it will be good or bad, we shall see. Pretty much as all laws.
The motion to give government great powers relative to parliament is separate (and concerning) - the government are claiming they need it to get the GRB through.

And the HOL (and I ) agree

That doesn't follow. The question of transfer of powers relates directly to the GRB.