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so now we have 5 days of time wasting debate in which precisely nothing new will be said, after which a vote will be held which everyone knows what the result will be, before we can then find out what Plan B entails.
To coin a phrase - Just Get On With It
piha - its the only explanation I can see for the constant anti corbyn attacks based on lies
Lets say it again
He campaigned for remain
He voted remain
Like TMay then
To get back to the core debate
In all my time as a political geek I have never known a government lose so many votes. Even in the final days of Callaghan or Major they didn't lose votes on this scale. Normally one lost vote is enough to topple a government.
tjagain - so you made it up then?
It’s hardly news that Corbyn is a brexit supporter. What he isn’t though, and what he has said repeatedly is that he’s not a no-deal supporter.
Centrists are having a really hard time with understanding this.
So they only have a few days really to come up with plan B - and we already know there can't be one, because plan A was all there was. The EU and May both said so.
So that really does make things rather interesting doesn't it?
So all the people who campaigned to leave the EU specifically to ‘restore the sovereignty of Parliament’ are now objecting to parliament asserting its sovereignty because it disagrees with them?
The rank hypocrisy really is quite staggering, isn’t it?
You disagree with the 2016 result and it isn't stopping you looking for it all to be over-turned.
No, as I think it would go the same one as the 2016 referendum and the position would then be even worse.
Worse how? Surely if it goes the same way then it'll silence those pesky remoaners for good.
Care to explain why you don't want another vote?
tjagain – so you made it up then?
Well it works for people making stuff up about what Corbyn thinks so why not turn it about?
You disagree with the 2016 result and it isn’t stopping you looking for it all to be over-turned.
That's not really the same thing - the point is that some leavers were banging on about one thing then when they actually get it they don't like the results.
Why do people get so upset when you point out Corbyn wants a Labour Brexit? He says so himself. It is so odd.
You disagree with the 2016 result and it isn’t stopping you looking for it all to be over-turned.
No, I'm asking that now we know what it actually looks like, let's verify that is still the will.
As I've said before
- If you voted remain and still want remain, your vote will still be heard
- If you voted remain and now want to leave, you can say so
- if you voted remain but feel the original result must be respected, then vote leave and have it counted in that way
- if you voted leave and still want leave, your vote is still heard
- if you voted leave and now want remain, you can say so
- if you didn't vote last time but are now motivated to do so, then you can
Who loses having a say in that list of scenarios?
Even my computer asks me if I'm sure about deleting a file, let alone deleting 40-odd years of political stability and collaboration.
So they only have a few days really to come up with plan B – and we already know there can’t be one, because plan A was all there was. The EU and May both said so.
So that really does make things rather interesting doesn’t it?
Presumably paln b is leave with no deal. which will get voted down hopefully.. and then?
You disagree with the 2016 result and it isn’t stopping you looking for it all to be over-turned.
No-one's looking to "overturn" anything, that's disingenuous leaver-speak. (Like there's any other kind...) When you have a regular General Election, is it an affront to democracy because it's overturning the result from five years ago? Don't be daft.
Looks like MPs have sprayed some de-icer on democracy… May's forever delayed plan might not work after all. Only 3 days allowed after/if her plan gets voted down before something has to happen in parliament. I won't cheer 'till the machine gets moving again (it's more likely to crash downhill, or stubbornly refuse to turn over at all, than move towards a workable position).
Who loses having a say in that list of scenarios?
Oh, I know this one. It's rabid brexies who know full well that the will of the people isn't any more and are scared to death of being found out.
There's no other reason I can see for leavers to object to another referendum. The only thing they have left now is "the will of the people" argument. If they're right then another vote will prove it and will be the abject death of any hope of remaining. If they genuinely believe that it's the will of the people then they should be hammering down the doors of parliament demanding another referendum just to shut up the remoaners once and for all. So why aren't they?
And if they're wrong, and it's not the will of the people after all, then we really should be finding that out before we go any further, should we not? Unless of course "the will of the people" is just another leaver lie a convenient excuse and they don't actually care about the will of the people at all, just what they themselves want.
isn't that rather undemocratic?
asking for a friend, obviously.
TJ here's Corbyn prior record on voting on the EU
He voted to leave the EEC in 1975
Voted against (and campaigned) against the creation of the EU in 1993
Voted against the Lisbon Treaty
Voted for a referendum in 2011 (broke the Labour whip to do so)
Opposed the UK joining the EU banking authority in 2012
His participation in the remain campaign is well documented, he did after all, choose to go on holiday...
they have wasted their political lives chasing a Blairite agenda
The bit where they enjoyed a Blairite government for more than a decade must have slipped you by.
Holding out for a harder-left government could prove to be far more fruitless than anything a Blairite could come up with. When's the last time we had anything approaching that?
Also, accusing anyone who disagrees with your preferred political option of lying is the kind of thing that really does waste your life.
I wonder how this epic thread will end.....
Most Labour members believe Corbyn should back second Brexit vote
Doesn't look like JC would split the party by changing tack based on this poll?
-
Nearly 90% of party members would opt to stay in the EU in a ‘people’s vote’, finds survey
Seems to me that between Labour and the Tories all they are worried about is manipulating the situation to look after themselves and their parties... not the country or even their own party members.
You never know she might come back with a plan .
Let's just forget about the hole thing.....and the billions spent
I wonder how this epic thread will end…..
I'm sure we'll be proved right 🙂
You think this is ever going to end?
I admire your optimism 😉
norburt the problem is a large part of the parliamentary party not the party at large
significant numbers of ideological remainers like Hoey and Field on the right, Ideological leavers like Stringer on the left ( I think e is still leftish but he is an idiot so might well have ended up on the right) then there are what I call the Burnham tendency - who are followers not leaders without an ideological thought in their head but who are scared of losing votes in northern seats and becoming the targets of the right wing press. this grouping is a large part of the parliamentary party and are the ones who threaten a breakaway party continually.
Nearly 90% of party members would opt to stay in the EU in a ‘people’s vote’, finds survey
Unfortunately the result of any people's vote hasn't got much to do with how Labour party members feel
To me that is the crux of the issue...
Even if we have another vote and it swings to 52% Remain 48% leave, and Brexit gets cancelled.... approximately 50% of the population are going to be pissed off... and will continue sniping in the background. Whilst that will be the 'other 50%' - we'll still be totally divided.
For it to end, we need a big majority, one way or the other.
To get that some of the lies etc. have to be debunked
Politicians and the media need to be held to account when they make stuff up or tell porkies
We need to do as Cougar mentions above and reform so that folks don't feel the need to blame their situations on the EU and the political elite - give them back control maybe?
There's a lot of work to do before this will ever end.
............... and who do we have in a position of power who is up to the task?
TJ - isn't that why the Labour party changed the rules so that the members got to vote on and set the party policy, rather than it being dictated by some MPs? (or a faction thereof).. or did I misunderstand how it is sposed to work?
Edit - maybe a breakaway party is what is needed if the views/ideas are that far apart?
I wonder how this epic thread will end…..
As long as the negotiations last.....
For it to end, we need a big majority, one way or the other.
I'm beginning to wonder if the only way to end this is via the tried and tested method of history.
significant numbers of ideological remainers like Hoey and Field on the right,
Er... These two are fanatical Leave
ideological remainers like Hoey and Field on the right
You meant leavers, presumably.
the tried and tested method of history.
Several are available, you'll have to be more specific about which method of ritual disembowelling you favour.
dazh - are you suggesting re-introducing the Black Death?
Mmmm, me thinks imnotverygood is correct...
https://www.politico.eu/list/brexit-40-troublemakers-ranking/frank-field/
https://www.politico.eu/list/brexit-40-troublemakers-ranking/kate-hoey/
indeed thos two are leavers - my typo. sorry.
Sorry Uncle Jezza, but what you’re saying is the typical tinfoil-helmet paranoia exhibited by the Corbyn bunker...
We’d get elected by a landslide tomorrow if only the Blairites and the media weren’t all conspiring against us!
Yeah, right.
The reality is that even the naturally left-leaning (like me) cant work up any enthusiasm for voting for the useless, 70’s throwback dinosaur, except as an anti-Tory vote.
The Labour Party is miles behind in the poles when faced with a shambles of a government the likes of which we’ve never seen before
There’s a very good reason for that! And it’s not a media/Blairite conspiracy.
It’s a lot more obvious. Because he’s absolutely ****ing hopeless! A change of policy, or indeed ANY policy on Brexit might fuel a change in electoral fortune, but his tacit coalescence in a hard right Brexit will only alienate the support he’s got.
Not that he’s bright enough to see that
He’s a totally ineffective placard-waving virtue signaller. Far more engaged with Beirut than Brexit. And the country needs and deserves a damn site more than that right now from the ‘leader of HM Opposition’
I'm amazed that you've never mentioned it before.
It’s because I’m really really ****ing angry. You expect this shit from the Tories, but to watch a Labour Party leader facilitate a hard right wet dream, just through some misguided delusional 1970’s utopian bullshit...
You couldn’t make it up
He’s Handing the hard right, free-market, lets deregulate and privatise everything ultra’s everything they’ve ever dreamt of.
Tory backbenchers can see the damage Brexit will do, and oppose it, but the leader of the Labour Party?
Apparently not
I do wish you could see what is actually happening Binners. Unfortunately you have swallowed the propaganda and don't actually listen / read what he says.
One thing I do agree with - Corbyn is so damaged by all the lies about him that he is damaged goods. Its a terrible situation where the soft left like yourself believes the lies about him rather than listen to what he says.
for example on brexit - he stated he used to be anti EU, he still has reservations about it but he has been persuaded on balance that remaining in would be the right thing to do ( pre referedum) and post referendum that he wants to remain in both the single market and the customs union. ie the softests of soft brexits.
Unfortunately the big lie technique has worked and folk like you are its unwitting tools
Open your eyes man!
No-one’s looking to “overturn” anything, that’s disingenuous leaver-speak. (Like there’s any other kind…) When you have a regular General Election, is it an affront to democracy because it’s overturning the result from five years ago? Don’t be daft.
I'm a tired remainer, so don't be daft yourself.
There's no logic in what you say because fixed term Parliaments are defined in our Parliamentary democracy
Calling for people's votes and 2/3/4th referendums and are not.
I've no idea where you were going with your logic.
Just watching BBC news, why do they post footage of them interviewing the mouth breathing idiots who clearly have no understanding of what the EU is or does.
Quote "When will be free of EU rule"
"why should we pay the divorce bill"
So many idiots!
Hopefully the groundswell of non-nutters in the Commons is gaining traction and they’re going to derail the runaway train before it goes over the edge. There will be collateral damage now it has gone on so long, but omelette-making and all that.
Wonder what’s next for the Brexies? Learn from their predecessors and burn down the Palace of Westminster and blame it on the Jews, er sorry, I meant to say Muslims?
There’s no logic in what you say because fixed term Parliaments are defined in our Parliamentary democracy
Calling for people’s votes and 2/3/4th referendums and are not.
I’ve no idea where you were going with your logic.
For the simple version, the referendum asked one question. Based on that we have set off and got to a serious decision point which in reality bears no resemblance to any of the proposed out of the eu futures by anyone who was campaigning for leave.
As nobody can agree what path of leave to follow asking the public specifically where next is not an affront to anything nor is it breaking democracy.
There’s no logic in what you say because fixed term Parliaments are defined in our Parliamentary democracy
Calling for people’s votes and 2/3/4th referendums and are not.
What's it say about calling for first ones?
I've said plenty of times before, I don't want another referendum, I think it's a very dangerous and risky proposal. I don't believe that it's the sort of decision that should be placed solely in the hands of a largely ignorant electorate (and never should have been in the first place). However, the point I was making is that the notion that having a new referendum would somehow be some sort of violation of the holy sanctity of the previous one or otherwise "undemocratic" is just daft. We knew what the people thought they wanted two years ago, we don't know what they think they want today.
If nothing else, it would be a different vote anyway, not "keeping having votes until you get a result you like" as the gammons would have us believe. The 2016 one was "do you want to leave" with no notion of what that might look like. Now that we do know what our negotiated deal is, asking if people still want to leave under that deal or change their mind and stay a member seems a reasonable (if reckless) question to ask, n'est-ce pas?
ION, I thought this was an interesting commentary on recent events.
http://www.politics.co.uk/blogs/2019/01/09/parliament-is-now-at-war-with-government-and-it-s-winning
for example on brexit – he stated he used to be anti EU, he still has reservations about it but he has been persuaded on balance that remaining in would be the right thing to do ( pre referedum) and post referendum that he wants to remain in both the single market and the customs union. ie the softests of soft brexits.
I gave Corbyn some slack until he pushed for the immediate use of Art. 50 post referendum. Anyone remotely remain would have reminded people that the referendum was advisory and that the implications should be thoroughly investigated and a plan presented to the world before anything as rash as signing Art. 50. Like Skargill, Corbyn couldn't give a flying duck about the well being of the people he represents.
Tory backbenchers can see the damage Brexit will do, and oppose it
Tory backbenchers have the luxury of both being in power and not wanting to be PM. Corbyn's responsibilities go way beyond those of Anna Soubry and he has to act accordingly. What puzzles me is why you and others are focused on what Corbyn is not in a position to do, rather than what May and the tories are. He has very little power to change the course on brexit. Why would he scupper labour's chances in the next election on something that will fail anyway?
There will be collateral damage now it has gone on so long, but omelette-making and all that.
Collateral damage or total obliteration? The far right are out there and rubbing their hands at the opportunity that is about to be handed to them. Farage will look like pinko liberal compared to this lot.
You expect this shit from the Tories, but to watch a Labour Party leader facilitate a hard right wet dream,
LMAO, and your messiah Saint Tony was a ****ing hero of the left wasn't he?
and post referendum that he wants to remain in both the single market and the customs union.
Could someone explain to me the sense behind "leaving"the EU whilst remaining in the single market and the customs union?
JC wants to be in A customs union not THE customs union.
Could someone explain to me the sense behind “leaving”the EU whilst remaining in the single market and the customs union?
You can fool the less rabid brexiteers that you have left without completely tanking the economy?
OK supplementary question then. What does it cost be be in the single market and the customs union?
You have to abide by their rules
Probably start about £8bn for a quick guess.
Shirley the real issue for a Corbyn lead labour party is that the UK is not a particularly socialist or left wing country... I'm not talking about the good people on here, but the general public and therefore the people that decide elections.
When was the last time we actually had a socialist (or even remotely socialist) government? Other than Blair (not really socialist was he?) when did we have a labour government (even a not particularly socialist one) who also had a decent sized majority in recent history?
By my reckoning we've never been a particularly left leaning country and hence I think it will be an uphill task for Jezza to pick up all of those floating voters he needs to win an election with any kind of decent majority unless he changes his stance and compromises on a few things.
So why be out of step with both the moderates in his party and in the electorate? Who does he think is going to vote for him? It might just be that rather than backing remain being the thing that splits the party, it might actually be his one and only chance of picking up enough votes of getting anywhere near number 10. Especially given that Labour have lost their way and Scotland and when the constituency boundary changes kick in the Tories will have an even easier task to keep Labour at bay.
TJ - you are actually aware that your messiah three-line-whipped his MP’s into voting against remaining in the customs union and the single market?!
Or does your delusion genuinely know no bounds?
I’m sure you’d love him to rescue us from Brexit, but unfortunately he’s about as likely to as Boris Johnson
OK supplementary question then. What does it cost be be in the single market and the customs union?
Norway pays the EU around £740m/yr; pro-rata they're about a fifth of the size of the UK, so would work out very roughly £3.7Bn (if whereas UK currently pays $14Bn a year and gets about £6Bn back) - so very roughly half the costs. Per capita, they pay £106/head whereas UK pays £128/head.
OK supplementary question then. What does it cost be be in the single market and the customs union?
It's difficult to put precise numbers on this but from what I understand Norway pays around 90% per person of what the UK pays. And that's just for access to the Single Market.
Paying to access both would most likely be more than what the UK is paying now, with no say in the rules, obviously. I honestly believe this is what's eventually going to happen. It would be a truly fitting end.
Edit: didn't see dovebiker's comment. I'd go with his numbers.
Edit - not worth replying to TJ about Corbyn 'till after he's waved us over the line into third country status.
Sorry TJ, but you’re deluded. Listen to what Corbyn says, and how he instructs the whips, not what you wish he was doing.
Well in some ways it looks like a cold hard play for number 10, kill off the tories while they fight among them selves and then take charge.
On if he would deliver Brexit it's unclear, for now it's about sticking to the same line that you can deliver Brexit better as that is "officially" what people want, can't be in trouble for doing what they asked can you?
After that the game is what can be achieved.
There is an awful lot of gammon hate for Corbyn already, I fear we might well see the first assasination of a UK pm if he ended up winning an election on a remain in the EU ticket. He certainly wouldn't be spending much quiet time alone down the allotment
On if he would deliver Brexit it’s unclear
He says he would. Is he lying?
After that the game is what can be achieved.
Ahh… "the game".
Ahh… “the game”.
Just a phrase
Well in some ways it looks like a cold hard play for number 10
To be honest why would anyone want number 10 just at the moment. As May has so effectively shown its a hospital pass right now. And it's not like he is shouting from the rafters about how it should be done currently. I just don't why he would want to be PM.
I'm loving bercow....despite his er shortcomings
Corbyn would be in just as a mess as May is if he got in, split party, split commons, split public opinion.
So I kinda see why he's keeping brexit at arms length, the poisoned challis gets free refills.
It's also a little bit cowardly though, he and May are both playing brinkmanship in a game of poker where they both have bad hands and they both know it.
You have to abide by their rules
... Which won't change if we leave, we'll just no longer have a say in making them.
Just watched arch-Brexiteer Andrea Leadsom being interviewed.
I’ve got stuff in my fridge with a better understanding of how the 21st century economy works, and generally a lot brighter
Tom Watson is on now, proving that the Tory’s don’t have a monopoly on idiocy. There’s another labour MP on who’s barely capable of stringing a sentence together,
The front benches of both our political parties are populated by absolute utter and complete morons. Total ****ing ####s, the lot of them!
And in the mean time, jaguar land rover, are to lay off five thousand people, but it's alright, they're planning to hire three thousand more, in Slovakia..... It's all project fear right?
Ahh… “the game”.
Of course it is a game, parliamentary politics is all a game and winning the game gets you into power. You have strategies, you use media (traditional and social), you try to look better than the alternative parties, you try and make the alternative parties look bad, you never agree with what they are doing publicly even though privately you agree with some things, you twist the facts to backup your argument etc,.
What do you think it is if it isn't a game?
Odds for A50 revoke are down from 5/1 to 4/1. If you want to know what is likely to happen look to the bookmakers not the polls.
Not sure about that one. I believe you could have got some attractive odds on both the Brexit vote and US elections going the way they did. PaddyPower paid out on a Hillary win in advance!
This is uncharted territory, and the bookmakers are probably as clueless as the rest of us.
Let's hope not, obviously.
Bookies odds reduce when money is placed on one outcome, So it's basically a sign of what Joe Public is placing his/her hard earned on, and thus, is useless.
Bookmarks odds are based both on the probability of something happening and the exposure the bookies have i.e. the number of people who have bet. So shortening of odds doesn't necessarily mean that the likelihood has increased, it could just mean more people have bet.
Of course it is a game, parliamentary politics is all a game and winning the game gets you into power.
It's not as people get to die/starve/revolt if you get it wrong. Let's be quite clear anyone regarding this as a game is probably suffering some form of delusion.
Yes due to a 50% down turn in china sales and because 90% of their sale are diesel. They are cutting the fat in management and marketing, which is based in the uk. The motor industry is continuing a glut of production even though sales are down globally. Brexit has and will have an effect on car sales due to the week pound and probable tariffs, but the decline in the motor industry as we know it is inevitable.