[Closed] EU Referendum - are you in or out?

[url= https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/jul/24/leaving-eu-single-market-customs-union-brexit-britain-europe ]Barry Gardiners[/url] article in the Guardian yesterday made for truly depressing reading.

You expect this kind of 'Will of the People/Brexit means Brexit' lunacy from the hard right loony tunes on the Tory back (and indeed front) benches. It seems the labour party is just as misguided and wedded to the same suicidally stupid ideas.

The overwhelming majority of labour voters were remainers. Seems Jezza is marching off in his own direction again, irrespective of anyone else's views

The massive problem with this 'will of the people' thing is that it no longer appears to be the will of the people.

I cannot see how not having another referendum is justifiable.

Just agree to let Brexit slide. No need for daft referendums/a (delete according to pluralisation preference)

@igm 60% of Labour voters are against Brexit then it must not be the most important issue for them as they voted for a pro-Brexit Party / Manifesto OR they accept the result and just want the government to get on with it (second is most likely but first is relevant too). IMO. Labour made the GE about Austerity hence their strong result. IMO

@tmh so there we have it electric mini in Cowley, no favours asked or given. Remainers here though still see the negative or try and create one. Project Doom and Gloom.

@captain all the Brexies I know myself inculuded think the UK will flourish outside the EU. We think there may be a short term cost in terms of less growth but thats bearable. None of us believed the Armageddon scare stories of the Remain campaign/IMF/OECD etc. If we thought the cost of Brexit would be catastrophic we would have voted Remain.

no favours asked or given

.. that you know about ...

Remainers here though still see the negative or try and create one. Project Doom and Gloom.

One swallow does not make a summer, you know that don't you?

Jamba - you'll be telling me next you believe Monday's press release about electricity savings.
(PS Brexit will put electricity prices up for two specific reasons. Monday's announcement is about trying to contain those prices rises a little)

@molgrips Nissan Quashquai too. Moving car production is very expensive, imo Mini decision was a foregone conclusion. Its right to say what happens in 5 and 10 years is more relevant. I am happy to buy a Skoda today and imo much more car production will go to much cheaper Eastern Europe plus we will have tariff free cars from Japan and US post new trade deals.

@igm I think we'll see the removal of VAT on utility bills post Brexit (impossible whilst in the EU and in fact EU want us to put VAT up to full rate). Plus I think we'll get any new tariff revenue spent on NHS. Both politically asture / populist measures. Currently the WTO tariffs collected on imports into the UK the EU takes 75% so we'll be geting that back too (not sure whether those revenues have been included in any calculations to date)

I think we'll see the removal of VAT on utility bills post Brexit

Plus I think we'll get any new tariff revenue spent on NHS. Both politically asture / populist measures.

Currently the WTO tariffs collected on imports into the UK the EU takes 75% so we'll be geting that back too (not sure whether those revenues have been included in any calculations to date)

Love those maths

[img] [/img]

we will have tariff free cars from Japan and US post new trade deals.

We will? Where'd you read that?

It's a prediction @molgrips. We allow £40bn worth of EU vehicles in tariff free and we PAY for the privilige and accepted freedom of movement to boot. We'll be able to have tariff free American and Japanese cars for free without granting their populations the right to live here. Both countries have superior hybrid / electrical tech too.

There will be a tariff free deal on cars wirh the EU as its a no brainer for them to agree it. We assemble/ export £10bn and import £40bn. The EU will be well aware we are speaking with the Americans amd Japanese about tariff free cars. I'm good wirh a Toyota/Honda/Lexus instead of an Audi/VW

And you think the EU will sign a free trade deal with the UK if Britian is full of tarif free cars from Japan and the US, Jambalaya. No chance. Britian will have to make a choice and logically that will be infavor of its biggest trading partner, the EU.

We'll be able to have tariff free American and Japanese cars for free without granting their populations the right to live here

You seem very confident you know what's going to happen... You make it all seem so simple. Tbh I'm a lot more sceptical.

Surely for tariff free Japanese cars they'd need to be made in Japan?
Aren't many / most made somewhere in the EU (including the UK)?
Same with Ford.

So maybe Tesla tariff free?

I am happy to buy a Skoda today and imo much more car production will go to much cheaper Eastern Europe

First you are happy to increase the costs of manufacturing in the UK? and hence what do you think is an acceptable unemployment rate? Transfering production and the supply chain out of the UK and into the EU is what you are predicting. Obviously those unemployed will be unable to relocate to where the work is due to the closed borders.

60% of Labour voters are against Brexit then it must not be the most important issue for them as they voted for a pro-Brexit Party / Manifesto OR they accept the result and just want the government to get on with it (second is most likely but first is relevant too). IMO. Labour made the GE about Austerity hence their strong result. IMO

nooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo. again. no landslide for the tories. but you know that. 😉

The Labour Party was deliberately vague during the election campaign about Brexit. But its general tone regarding Single Market access, the Customs Union etc, gave the impression amongst a lot of people (myself included) that the attitude was much softer/less confontational/flag-waving than the Tories

This week's statements show that Jezzas political instincts remain as way-off-the-mark as they ever were, and he seems to have once again mis-judged the mood of his supporters who are predominantly young, educated, metropolitan and thus pro EU. Gardiners article for the Guardian could easily have been penned by Iain Duncan Smith

As are most Labour MP's. So the uneasy truce of the last couple of months will soon be shattered as the party goes to war with itself again. [url= https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/jul/25/labour-mp-says-shadow-minister-is-fundamentally-wrong-on-brexit ]Its started already.[/url] This time specifically over Brexit. While on the benches opposite, hostilities become more public and very nasty

Something for us all to look forward too, eh?

What a ****ing omnishambles!!

First you are happy to increase the costs of manufacturing in the UK?

It's not a thing unique to the UK worldwide costs are increasing.

This week's statements show that Jezzas political instincts remain as way-off-the-mark as they ever were, and he seems to have once again mis-judged the mood of his supporters who are predominantly young, educated, metropolitan and thus pro EU. Gardiners article for the Guardian could easily have been penned by Iain Duncan Smith

I think this is pretty much what Jambalaya said a few weeks back.

You were wanted Binns - many times on here

His "conviction" has always been anti Europe

Still at least he wasn't promising to write off student loans

If ever the UK needed a new party, it's now. Maybe two.

teamhurtmore - Member

You were wanted Binns - many times on here

That's a lovely thought hurty, but disappointingly, probably a typo 😉

I feel conned, as the ambiguity on policy was obviously deliberate, in order to court remainers. So this week's statements make their electoral strategy look like what it is/was. An incredibly cynical piece of electioneering, and basically a betrayal

Assuming jambalaya hasn't been back to clarify his magic money tree from earlier...

Still at least he wasn't promising to write off student loans

Bloody apple autocorrect!

The Marr interview exposed him - the emperor (sic) has no clothes on

Got an exact quote where he said he would write off all loans?

No - hence my comment. He's not that silly. He let the other cuckoos brief people incorrectly instead - dirty world politics

I feel conned, as the ambiguity on policy was obviously deliberate, in order to court remainers. So this week's statements make their electoral strategy look like what it is/was. An incredibly cynical piece of electioneering, and basically a betrayal

I don't think you should feel conned binners. Corbyn & McDonnell might have tried to be ambiguous but surely you saw through all that shite? The vote for Labour was a "stop May & her mandate" vote. now onto convincing Brexiteers they did the wrong thing. That's going to be tough but there are ways.

Probably more wishful thinking than anything on my behalf Bravissimo.

Its going to be interesting to see what happens as the shitstorm that is Brexit blows through the economy and reality takes hold, as both parties are as split as each other, and both already just about clinging on from declaring open warfare on the other faction

It's going to be ****ing chaos as this all unravels

It's going to be ****ing chaos as this all unravels

Shock doctrine eh? I bet a few shitehawks are rubbing their hands.

Interesting hypothesis DD. I would counter by suggesting that Labour did well by shifting the debate away (almost totally) from Brexshit to focus on their allegedly safer ground : wages; NHS; orsterity; heducation; falling inequality etc

Of course most of that was BS too but that's another story

The overwhelming majority of labour voters were remainers. Seems Jezza is marching off in his own direction again, irrespective of anyone else's views

Binnerrs without this position / manifesto Labour would have been crushed at the GE. See what @tmh says above - spot on about moving the GE away from Brexit

I think you three are in agreement.

Politically expedient to kick Brexit into the long grass until after the election and deal with it then.

Now that the GE's over, we can address Brexit properly and kick it into the long grass for good given that's what the majority want.

And more MPs all the time talking about ways of doing what the public want and exiting Brexit without upsetting the media powerbrokers.

PS I am a little disappointed in the pro-Brexit line the BBC has adopted - a more neutral line might be expected of Auntie. Having to rely on the FT, Times, Guardian, Independent, etc for that. Even the Telegraph occasionally slips and forgets the party line on how good Brexit is. I guess the BBC is feeling the political influence the Brexy members of the government are trying to exert.

Oh God! What have I become?

😥

I dunno thm. There were so many micro shifts going on in that election that trying to piece it all together into a macro view is hard work.

Now that the GE's over, we can address Brexit properly and kick it into the long grass for good given that's what the majority want.

How do you know the majority of voters dont want brexit?

I dunno thm. There were so many micro shifts going on in that election that trying to piece it all together into a macro view is hard work.

Binners - The next lines are

My sweetest friend
Everyone I know goes away
In the end
And you could have it all
My empire of dirt
I will let you down
I will make you hurt

Apt?

Julian - steady trend in the polls. 51:44 remain last time I checked. The Brexies must be dying out.

It's pretty obvious that labour were trying to be all things to all people much as the leave campaign had been. They can pretty much get away with it indefinitely so long as they don't accidentally end up in power. At which point brexit will blow them apart just as it's blowing apart the tories (Gove v Fox being today's minor skirmish).

I am a little disappointed in the pro-Brexit line the BBC has adopted

If there are no positives to Brexit, how can it avoid this?

They could be honest about the lack of positives.

The Marr interview exposed him - the emperor (sic) has no clothes on

Still obsessing about JC's clothes, hurty?

Hmm, my first google hit produced this which claims the majority still want to leave , 50% leave,
46% remain (last poll date june 21st 2017).

http://whatukthinks.org/eu/questions/if-a-second-eu-referendum-were-held-today-how-would-you-vote/

But thats the thing about opinion polls theyre not definitive and in recent years have been completely wrong.

Edukator so your position is the EU won't agree a free trade deal in cars / auto parts unless it's an exclusive ? That makes no sense. The European manufacturers are (IMO) going to have to get used to the Americans and Japanese having a level playing field when selling to UK customers. Ditto French farmers. That's the best they can hope for, a level playing field. If we don't agree a free trade deal with the EU then the 27 are going to be at a disadvantage when we put in place free trade agreements elsewhere which will happen quickly not least as its politically smart ahead of the next GE and it strengthens our hand with the EU of course. Remember we are a net importer of all tjese things and the products are available from multiple sources.

True DD - a master class in confusion worked wonders!

Dr - thats a really poor attempt, although expected as I typed. Would you confuse the idiom with earlier comments- SNAP, the trap was sprung!!!

when we put in place free trade agreements elsewhere which will happen quickly

Utter Brexit fantasy.