Forum menu
"End freedom of movement". What exactly does that mean?
I am pretty sure that with some modified legislation, and a whole load of spin, we could quite easily of put an end to "Freedom of Movement" (in the sense that most DailyFail readers understand it), whilst remaining fully paid up members of the EU! All it needed was the political will to do so.
For my own part I’m genuinely bemused at why such an unimposing, inoffensive and quite frankly boring personality stirs such passions.
Because, as I understand it, he is an ineffectual and indeed, largely absent, opposition ‘leader’ in the current situation, a disingenuous disguiser of his true political position (judged by comparing his political stance of 95% of his career against what he now claims to espouse) and is a creature of the entryist ‘Momentum’ organisation rather than of the Labour Party.
Gove is deciding if he brings it all down at the moment.
Though to sum stuff up my mother came out with the gem that Mogg as PM would be better than Corbyn as he will take away all the assets and give them to poor people.....
Not sure at which point critical thinking was lost on educated people.
Corbyn dropping his support for Brexit and saying that if we got a Labour government that it would offer us the chance to vote to stop it.
And therein lies the problem. At this point in time, any party that goes against the result of the referendum will never be in government. What he is on record as saying and what he has stated repeatedly is that he wants to stop a no deal brexit, either through an election, or if that fails a new referendum. I don't know why people struggle with understanding that.
Bruce Wee - political expediency. His party is badly divided with some rabid anti EU and a lot running scared of the anti immigrant feeling in their constituencies. If he had said - FOM is here to stay he would have been under huge attack from the press and also within his party.
There are plenty of measures we could take to restrict FOM without leaving the EU like many other countries have done as Welshfarmer alludes to. But the tories wanted the supply of cheap labour so never put any of these measures in place
a disingenuous disguiser of his true political position
That all depends on what you consider 'leader' to mean. Is his job to stamp his views on the party? Or to accept the party's views even if he doesn't personally agree?
He's damned if he does either of those two things in the eyes of the press, isn't he?
Seems unimaginable that Gove will stay…and the moment he goes, things get almost impossible for May.
I imagine he's waiting to see if the 48 letters go in.
Mogg has no populist base big enough – trump appealed to disenfranchised rural working class. Mogg has no appeal outside of rabid brexiteers.
52%
BBC news are hinting that the 48 letters are on the desk. This is going to get messy(er) if so.
I believe she will win a no confidence vote.
Gove won't quit there are jellyfish with more backbone.
Mogg has no appeal outside of rabid brexiteers.
52%
Yep it's a number that represents about 36% of the voting public who mostly supported some sort of Brexit. It's not the number who support a complete cluster **** hard brexit
But the tories wanted the supply of cheap labour so never put any of these measures in place
So did Labour... all this crap can’t just be put down to the last shower. I don’t remember the screaming about Eastern European’s coming in and taking jobs in the mid 90s but it was a big news thing by the 2000s.
No government in the last 25 years (perhaps more) has done anything to control borders, build council houses etc other than sound bites and wasted money. This is what lead to here and they are still doing nothing!
I believe she will win a no confidence vote.
Win or lose it makes no odds. The deal is on the table changing leaders doesn’t move us 2 years back in time to restart the negotiations...
Gove is waiting till the last possible minute to see which way the wind is blowing.
I bet he's seen the headline in the Brexiteers Bible (Daily Mail) today and is now worried that jacking it in could put him on the wrong side of the Brexit line.... somewhat ironically! 😆
Its a bitch when you are at the mercy of a Brexit voting public, or daily mail(!) that haven't got a clue what they really wanted from Brexit..... Poor him.😂
any party that goes against the result of the referendum will never be in government
Having another public vote is letting the public "go against the result" … it's down to the voters then, not a few politicians. Forcing this shit storm through now that most people now want to stop it, is not the path to future electoral success for a party who's supporters and voters are against carrying on with Brexit.
Which is why I applaud the move of the labour party towards a second vote. Remember the attacks in the press and from politicians aimed at anyone who suggested this a while back tho.
Its the only way out of this mess.
Corbyn is ruling out a so called second vote if he gets into government. Corbyn is not supporting calls for a so called second vote NOW, when time is fast running out to get one.
Tick.Tock.
Corbyn wants Brexit. I know that Labour members do not, but they are not setting policy on this issue.
I doubt Gove has leadership ambitions right now.
For one thing he's not the darling of the ERG anymore, there are several in the cabinet they'd vote for before him.
Secondly, who would want to be the center of this omnishambles? Better politically to resign, sit on the back benches for a couple of years then come back once your reputations ben rehabilitated. Remember how much we all hated IDS? He now seems almost socialist after a few years of criticising universal credit from the back benches.
I think a NO confidence vote may well be triggered in the tory party against May - but I am pretty sure she would actually win it. This leads us into a nasty stalemete.
The withdrawal bill / deal will be voted down, but May wins a confidence vote both in the tory party and in parliament. Where does this leave us? In complete limbo with no effective government.
the shitstorm we have no will look like a summer day compared to what happens then
As for Gove - a nasty piece of work with ambition beyond his capabilities. He could never win an election. He is as above eyeing up what is best for him and waiting to see which way the wind blows.
Gove only wants one thing
"If chance will have me king, why, chance may crown me, Without my stir."
tho reality is more
"Thou plottest, Blackadder! Thou wouldst be king, and drown Middlesex in a butt of wine!"
It’s not the number who support a complete cluster **** hard brexit
It is also not the number who would see Rees Mogg as the right PM. His popularity declines the more he is on TV which is understandable.
I bet he’s seen the headline in the Brexiteers Bible (Daily Mail) today and is now worried that jacking it in could put him on the wrong side of the Brexit line…. somewhat ironically! 😆
The DM has shifted its position since Dacre retired: now pushing for May's deal rather than the wishes of the ERG. Comments from gammons on Twitter are hilarious.
As for Gove – a nasty piece of work with ambition beyond his capabilities. He could never win an election. He is as above eyeing up what is best for him and waiting to see which way the wind blows.
I find myself conflicted. Obviously he is a duplicitous tory scumbag, yet I know senior people in Defra who speak highly of him - they see him as an effective environment minister.
At this point in time, any party that goes against the result of the referendum will never be in government.
I don't see how anyone can possibly make this claim.
Gove is playing it right. By not accepting the Brexit Minister job he's not seen to be siding with May. By not resigning or writing his letter he's not siding against her.
But the tories wanted the supply of cheap labour so never put any of these measures in place
Did Labour ever put any of these measures in? Remember Blair? He was PM for quite a while, I recall.
Aye - and he is a tory 😉
Not putting in the controls available was a major blunder from Blair
Gove, is by all accounts, a very effective and slick minister. A stickler for detail and one not opposed to being called out for bad decisions or being incapable.
As for PM? Nope, he will (as noted above) sit back and let May take the flack for this hellhole we face then when she has a breakdown step in as some sort of White Brexit Knight complete with St George flag waving “i’ll save you all”
Then kick you all in the balls as he saunters off into Pension ridden retirement.
Like all of them, faced with this decision.
But the tories wanted the supply of cheap labour so never put any of these measures in place
Is this a rant about fruit pickers and people working in bars and restaurants? What about nurses, doctors, lab staff, drivers, teachers, IT professionals… all this conflating of Freedom of Movement of Workers with "cheap labour" is just old and tired and very 2016.
Not putting in the controls available was a major blunder from Blair
It grew our economy and brought a lot of great people here. Many, after injecting their tax money into our state, went home with fond memories of the UK. Those that have stayed are valuable contributing members of our society that some elements of "our people" have picked out as a target for their own political aims. Many now feel unwelcome. Don't be like Nigel. Be better than that TJ.
I don’t see how anyone can possibly make this claim.
Because remainers have been told they have to "get on with it, it's the will of the people" by both major parties.
The lib dems haven't gained any significant support so clearly remainers aren't going to change party allegiance.
Brexiteers on the other hand I imagine would never again vote for Labour or Tory if either actually got a second referendum, and it's more than enough to wipe out Labour in places like Stoke however many young people it might attract as a policy in places they already win convincingly like London. Ditto the Tories, they would lose out massively to UKIP (assuming Farage came back) and Labour (assuming Labour didn't call for a second referendum although given the leaderships complete ineptitude I've no idea what they'd do, at least the Tories are predictable and likely to act either ideologically or out of self preservation).
Brexiteers on the other hand I imagine would never again vote for Labour or Tory if either actually got a second referendum, and it’s more than enough to wipe out Labour in places like Stoke
Missing the polling that a majority in Labour seats support a 2nd referendum?
Missing the polling that a majority in Labour seats support a 2nd referendum?
Makes no odds if that majority wouldn't all vote labour. It only takes a few hundred labour supporting brexiters to be disgruntled in a few marginal constituencies and they've lost a GE.
In a binary black and white world where the labour/tory vote was 50/50 and brexit/remain was 50/50 (and viewed as more important than tribal loyalty) then if either party concedes to a second referendum it immediately loses the next GE by a margin of 75 to 25.
The real world has more shades of grey than that, but in a first past the post system it's those last few tens/hundreds of votes that matter in marginal constituencies, and a few marginal constituencies that get you into government. Look at UKIP, 12.6% of the vote, 1 out of 650 seats, overall popularity doesn't translate to election success.
No one AFAIK has asked the question "if labour supported a second referendum, would you vote for them in a subsequent GE".
Kelvin - I quite agree with you. The controls available tho would have helped stem the tide of anti immigrant feeling rather more than they would have actually reduced the number of immigrants. Things like you cannot come in or stay without a job - that could have been done and thus stop the "Immigrants coming here and stealing our benefits " nonsense
It would have allowed labour to make a "controlled immigration" story rather than being attacked for allowing a flood of drunken poles here which is what the tory press did. Basically removing a stick to beat labour with and removing once source of friction without stopping the flow of essential workers
Believe me - working as I do in the NHS I know the benefits of EU workers.
Bikebouy - ask anyone in Education about him. A vile man and an ideologue who damaged education greatly. Only effective in getting his ideology put in place not in actually following the evidence. See badger cull for one example in defra
The controls available tho would have helped stem the tide of anti immigrant feeling
"Anti-immigrant feeling" is not prevented by stopping people moving for work.
Things like you cannot come in or stay without a job
When did you last meet an EU national in the UK who did not have a job? When did anyone?
[ oh, excluding students ]
What you describe sounds a lot like lots of red tape and a hostile environment for EU/EEA workers to get rid of non-existent non-workers. Some other countries do exactly this to try and placate their nationalist elements… not sure it's working. Keeps some people busy in work checking documentation though I suppose.
Things like you cannot come in or stay without a job
That was done originally when the 8 new states joined. I know this as I worked for the home office then (2006), checking the documents of the applicants from the 8 new EU states as part of the 'Worker Registration Scheme' if they didn't have Valid ID and a letter from their employer their applciation to come to the UK for work was rejected.
And we did find some hilariously fake IDs.
Doesn't mean they didn't just rock up anyways, but that was a problem for our border force, not the WRS.
No idea when or which government binned it off though.
“Anti-immigrant feeling” is not prevented by stopping people move for work. When did you last meet an EU national in the UK who did not have a job? When did anyone?
Playing devils advocate here.
Many of EU nationals I have met coming here to work bring their families & children along. That means there will automatically be people here without jobs. Those family members are immediately, on entry to the UK, entitled to child benefits, family tax credits, universal free healthcare, job seekers allowance for anyone over 18 etc. All very attractive things that give the Right Wing press and the gammons plenty of easy targets (and possibly justifiable in some cases) to aim their vitriol at. Having worked away in the EU myself I can testify to the fact that it is certainly not that easy to just up sticks and to relocate your whole family to most other EU countries unless you have a really well paid job to go to already, somewhere to live sorted in advance, and appropriate insurances in place to cover any unforeseen problems.
Okay, kids not working (yet) is a fair point. Would you rather put them up chimneys, or keep kids out?
Other European countries do make it harder to move/work there. We could do the same and stay in the EU. We shouldn't though, it's counter productive and just reinforces the idea that incomers are unwelcome and second class to people already here. And that feeds rather than counters the anti-immigrant rhetoric.
It's generally 5 years before you can claim UK benefits as a EU national.
But we could easily introduce some minor measures and appropriately spin it in order to "give the impression" that we are making it more difficult for EU workers than the current system we have. That would surely go some way to placate many and could be sold as "ending Freedom of Movement" as we have come to know it.
That would surely go some way to placate many and could be sold as “ending Freedom of Movement” as we have come to know it.
Which highlights the real problem that we don't actually know how many we are placating, or why or if it will make a difference, some of them are the isolation or nothing types who wouldn't be appeased until every foreigner is removed from the country.
From Labour's twitter yesterday…
It’s time for a government that will fight for a Brexit deal that brings our country together.
Red unicorns.
I'm not voting for them again while this continues. Might be only a few other people that think the same way. Might be a few thousand. Might be a few million. I don't know.
If they adopt the policy Labour members want… I'm back onboard, and will actively campaign for them.
Don't go telling me that the Labour leadership are "keeping all options on the table", it is bullshit.
I really don't know any more.
I have never felt less 'British' than I do at the moment.
Watching this fiasco develop, putting myself in the shoes of an outsider looking on with a mixture of pity and derision as this country makes a total fool of itself in front of the eyes of the world. I wish I was French, or German, or Dutch, or any other developed nation that isn't busy giving in to the easy politics of division and ganging up on minorities to distract itself from its real issues and responsibilities.
If we have a shred of respect left anywhere in the world after this, we should be grateful.
Kelvin - welsh farmer has it.
Measures were available that would have had in actual fact very little effect but could have been nicely spun to kill one of the tories attack lines that led to where we are now.
May playing it up the middle to keep her party together is duplicitous but Corbyn doing the same is "politically expedient". Aye. Right.
Odious human.
Where's Bannon?
Multiple sources now claiming the 48 are in, let the bloodshed begin
Boris to sign as the skipper of UKIP?
Good,take all your ****wits with you.
Split the vote.
Multiple sources now claiming the 48 are in, let the bloodshed begin.
Where, when, who?
<div class="bbp-reply-author">kelvin
<div class="bbp-author-role">
<div class="">Subscriber</div>
</div>
</div>
<div class="bbp-reply-content">
Corbyn is ruling out a so called second vote if he gets into government.
Is he? I've seen him say that he's pushing for an election or failing that a second vote. I haven't seen him rule out a second vote if he's in power.
</div>
Where, when, who?
BBC live Web page has them, sourced from mp's and newspapers sources.
Is he? I’ve seen him say that he’s pushing for an election or failing that a second vote. I haven’t seen him rule out a second vote if he’s in power.
He doesn't want to be in the EU, he does want to be in power. He's little better than Gove trying to keep quiet and saying he could have done a better job and/or would like to do a better job.
Just wish someone would stick their head above the parapet and call for a second referendum, couldn't a Lib Dem do it as a private members bill?
Can amendments be added to the so called "meaningful vote", or is it just a yes/no vote?
BBC live Web page has them, sourced from mp’s and newspapers sources.
Only 21 names though, nothing to indicate there's another 27.
Welsh farmer, do you want to withdraw your comment about benefit eligibility for anyone over 18? This is the sort of oft-repeated misinformation that swings referendums....
TJ, you repeatedly pointed out that wanting one of the 4 freedoms would mean accepting all when we were talking about May's deal, Ireland, and the gfa, so it would never fly with the EU. I don't see that wanting 3 of the 4, no freedom of movement, would fly either. If one leads to a no deal I find it hard to accept that the other wouldn't.
Only 21 names though, nothing to indicate there’s another 27.
The reporting was of the other letters being there/on their way but not public which you would understand as not all those who would vote want to be known if the numbers didn't get there
BBC live Web page has them, sourced from mp’s and newspapers sources.
Only 21 names though, nothing to indicate there’s another 27.
Exactly, stick to the facts.
The 48 have NOT (yet) been received
The 48 have NOT (yet) been received
That's not a fact either.
Facts:
21 letters publicly sent
Unknown number of private letters sent.
Number of unconfirmed and anonymous reports that the 48 has been reached.
There will be some that have put thier letter in and not made it public though ... Could easily be enough given 21 are public.
Why can't I see how to shorten a link??
Steve Baker claims he knows of 48 in and another 12 likely, several other sources have come up with the same claim.
Public declarations are pointless unless it's a certainty and you know you can finish her off, especially from any cabinet minister or next in line for a job
Unknown is, erm... unknown
Unless you are counting them yourself.
Best wait to see the full facts eh.
21 letters publicly sent
Unknown number of private letters sent.
Welsh farmer, do you want to withdraw your comment about benefit eligibility for anyone over 18? This is the sort of oft-repeated misinformation that swings referendums….
Not sure. I did some reading before hand and was guided by this document which is for EU citizens outlining what they can and can't claim in aeach EU country....
http://ec.europa.eu/social/main.jsp?catId=1132&langId=en&intPageId=4848
OK, just re-read it and seems you need to have been in the UK for 3 months before being able to claim. My bad. (I was reading the "common travel area" as the EU and not the UK and Rep of Ireland)
The reporting was of the other letters being there/on their way but not public which you would understand as not all those who would vote want to be known if the numbers didn’t get there
The "report" was one line that Steve Baker (deputy chair of ERG) said the threshold had been reached.
Number of unconfirmed and anonymous reports that the 48 has been reached.
Unconfirmed and anonymous source ranks somewhere below "Dave down the pub said"
Doesn't mean it won't happen, but several people on twitter repeating what Steve Baker said does not constitute corroboration.
turns out a bad deal is better than no deal 🙂 🙂
https://twitter.com/BrexitCentral/status/1063405317344698368
I would not trust the British press, remember this is the same press that recently claimed the KSK....the German special forces was going to overthrow the German government....kill all the socialist leaders and the re-enact kristallnacht.
What would the question/options be on a 2nd referendum?
I would not trust the British press, remember this is the same press that recently claimed the KSK
What all the press, some of the press, one of the press a bit of the press?
Doesn’t mean it won’t happen, but several people on twitter repeating what Steve Baker said does not constitute corroboration.
The ones I read were before Baker's statement/interview
What would the question/options be on a 2nd referendum?
Remain or May's deal, there is no way Parliament would put no deal on the ballot.
Anyone else watch LBC with PM & Nick Ferrari?
I bet he’s got a sit-on lawn mower
I read that as "...daft Brexit deal"
Only 21 names though, nothing to indicate there’s another 27.
this could be because there's only 21 tories left in the party however
What all the press, some of the press, one of the press a bit of the press?
All but the BBC, the Indy, the FT, the Guardian and the Times. I guess that is a rather large chunk that is trustworthy. The rest aren't.
All but the BBC, the Indy, the FT, the Guardian and the Times. I guess that is a rather large chunk that is trustworthy. The rest aren’t.
I was about to say it had completely passed me by, who covered it Breitbart, Westmonster and The Quibbler?
We have actually conducted a valuable international public service, though
Every single government on the planet is making a mental note never ever to have a referendum on anything EVER, under any circumstances!!
We’re an international laughing stock. The first country in history to try and negotiate a trade deal that’s considerably worse than the one they’ve already got
A lot of former British colonies are laughing their tits off that it’s now us that is the very definition of a Banana Republic
Quote from BBC:
International Trade Secretary Liam Fox told an event in Bristol: "We are not elected to do what we want to do, but to do what is in the national interest."
Wow, I mean really, just wow. That takes buster gonad sized balls or a jaw dropping lack of awareness to stand up and say that given what he and his wrecking crew have already done against the national interest in the name of lining their own pockets!
Do you see much self-awareness in government at the moment.
Raab is so ignorant that not only had it not occurred to him that as an island we’re quite dependent on our ports, but he was so lacking in self-awareness that he publically vocalised it, as if it’d never crossed anyone else’s mind either.
And according to the bookies, he’s odds on to be the next PM
Makes you wonder what other staggeringly obvious things haven’t occurred to him either. The pope being catholic, perhaps?
God help us. They’re all morons! If anything, it’s a pretty damning indictment of the expensive U.K. private education system. From Cameron through to this half-wit, we’re in this mess due to the rank stupidity and incompetence of people who’ve had the most expensive education money can buy
I was about to say it had completely passed me by, who covered it Breitbart, Westmonster and The Quibbler?
The Daily Fail, The Metro (which is where I spotted it), The Sun - you know, the usual suspects that have way too much influence in the UK.
Every single government on the planet is making a mental note never ever to have a referendum on anything EVER, under any circumstances!!
Have you told the Swiss yet, they have had 10 in 2018.
The key to referendums is asking the right question.