Forum menu
Depends on whether you regard 'comrade' as name calling, really, I suppose? I don't personally. You should hear what I can come up with when I'm really, really cross.
Yet..... still not one of his disciples is actually pepared to comment on the points I made. Just pointed out that I should stop being horrid about Jeremy and his disciples.
And therein lies the whole problem.
Jeremy is right, because..... because... WELL HE JUST IS, ALRIGHT! Seems to be about the level of debate with the Corbynistas. Even whwn all evidence points to the contrary.
I mean... I get it. If you start thinking about it too hard you arrive at the inherent conatrdiction that your Messiah is actually a rabid brexiteer, so best not to think about it too much, eh?
Its absolutely beyond me how any of you are squaring this particularly, as for me that'd take a lot of mental gymnastics. Shall I repeat my point.....
to me the nightmare scenario is a no deal Brexit, which inevitably leads to the fall of the government, then Corbyn getting in and setting about his freedom from EU rules to renationalise everything.
I truly believe this is what he thinks is going to happen. That this is ‘The Plan’. Hence his relaxed attitude to Brexit. He’s loving this! A hard/no deal Berxit is all his dreams come true.
But if it pans out like that, imagine how fast businesses will run for the exits? We’ll be a third world country within 5 years. We’d make Greece’s troubles since the Euro-crisis look like an economic success story in comparison.
Doesn’t sound much like any type of Utopia really, does it?
Feel free to comment
I'm no Corbyn apologist but I would like to point out that by the time we get to a no deal brexit we are ****ed anyway and we might as well be run by the teletubbies for all the difference it would make.
I think we all need to re-set our dials about how bad this could get. We're all still thinking about 29th March being some kind of endgame.
Its the opposite. Thats the very first day of the serious shit really starting. Its year zero. We need to bloody wake up and acknowledge this inconvenient fact
One thing the last 2 years has so graphically illustrated more than anything is the absolute rank incompetence, ignorance and economic illiteracy of our entire political class, of both colours. Idiots, the lot of them
No argument there.
But, re Corbyn, the point you are missing is that he is not a personal leader, in that he is not making the party do what he wants. He is following what the party conference decided. So whilst he might be in favour of Brexit, he has allowed the party's official policy to be second ref, and remain as a distinct possibility.
That's a very important point when the leader has the opposite point of view to the membership.
We won't really find out what he's made of re Europe until there's a commons vote on the deal and he whips his party. But even then there is room for doubt because there is a strong argument in favour of pragmatism i.e. vote the deal through so we can end the uncertainty.
My view is on the whole is the majority of people will have little choice but to get on with it and make the best of what happens , That will go some way to healing divisions just because there is no other option than to get on with it.
Sure there will remain some bad sentiment/resentment through individuals for some time to come but Time really is a great healer and I think that very few want to lie on our deathbed and say/think.. see I told you you were wrong about Brexit whatever side they were on.
Just my 2p’s worth
I'd like to believe that.....but I went through the anger in the aftermath, and then as a relatively rational and level headed individual, i resigned myself to the facts and waited to see what happened next.
Which as noted previously is that a bunch of self serving incompetents totally and abjectly have failed to do anything of value towards 'making the best of what happens'. In fact, any attempt to come up with a compromise just seems to result in complaints of 'this isn't what we wanted' without any attempt to articulate what it is they want (beyond vacuous shite like 'red white and blue' and 'take back control').
So I'm inevitably sliding back towards anger, at the people that put us in this mess, the ones that refuse to see the harm we are doing, and those that seem intent on continuing to work for their own advantage rather than the benefits that they *think* being out of Europe brings.
Time can heal - but not when you spend the whole time picking the scab off again.
Yet….. still not one of his disciples is actually pepared to comment on the points I made. Just pointed out that I should stop being horrid about Jeremy and his disciples.
Given your repeated references to "disciples", "messiah", "sixth form", "half-wits", "Citizen Smith", "People's front", etc, perhaps you shouldn't be surprised if people think you act in bad faith, and do not wish to engage with you.
Binners the key question about Corbyn is not whether he’s anti-EU (he clearly is, he always has been) but whether he’s a revolutionary. If he is you may be right, he’ll be pro-hard Brexit because revolutions need upheaval to create the space to introduce new radical policies. However I’m not sure he is. His policies are largely soft socialist state led Keynesianism.
McDonnell on the other hand is. I truly believe he wants to bring in UBI and a 4 day week. Does Brexit help that? I have no idea to be honest but I doubt being in the EU will help.
REUTERS: BREXIT: DOWNING STREET OFFICIAL SAYS PM MAY EXPECTED TO MAKE STATEMENT OUTSIDE HER OFFICE FOLLOWING CABINET MEETING APPROX 1700 GMT (Reuters alerts always in caps)
perhaps you shouldn’t be surprised if people think you act in bad faith, and do not wish to engage with you.
In that case I'll stick with my impression that its actually because you don't have any answers. Like I said, I've no idea how you're squaring this circle of support for Corbyn while all evidence points to him being a Hard Brexiteer who wants nothing more than a no deal Brexit
If you do manage to lower the levels of ones sensibilities to have to give an answer to question, even when someone horrid is asking it, feel free....
Shall I paste it a fourth time?
It's worth reiterating that the Labour policy is to push for a 2nd ref only if they don't get an election first.
If they win an election their policy is to ram through a red unicorn brexit that will be so much better than the tory blue unicorn brexit. Which is why I won't be voting for them if an election is called.
At least the whole country can unite in hating her.
Feel free to comment
Looks like you are just continuing your very tired crusade against Corbyn and of course comrade is name calling. I like what Corbyn has done for Labour and I think his position on Brexit is all he can do in his position (same as May). I don't see myself as a 'comrade; though thanks.
However, it is now up to the MPs to actually vote in line with what they think is best. I am no fan of Brexit but seeing as it is going to happen in some shape or form I would vote for the closest thing there is to it and not really care what Corbyn was asking em to do (just as he did for most of his career!)
Daz - I truly believe that those who want a hard Brexit, on the left or the right, won't for one second say the real reason:
They want the chaos it'll cause to push through policies that they wouldn't have a cat in hells chance of getting through under normal circumstances. In that, I don't see any difference in motivation between Rees-Mogg and Corbyn
Though Disasster Socialism is a novel concept
I would vote for the closest thing there is to it and not really care what Corbyn was asking em to do (just as he did for most of his career!
Yet the serial rebel 3-line-whipped his MPs to vote through Article 50. Not much tollerence of people voting with their consinces there, is there?
I've no doubt he'll do the same this time. 3 line whip Labour MPs for whatever will bring about the hard brexit he clearly wants
The hypocrisy is breathtaking!
REUTERS: BREXIT: DOWNING STREET OFFICIAL SAYS PM MAY EXPECTED TO MAKE STATEMENT OUTSIDE HER OFFICE FOLLOWING CABINET MEETING APPROX 1700 GMT (Reuters alerts always in caps)
now saying 7pm.....
I’ve no doubt he’ll do the same this time. 3 line whip Labour MPs for whatever will bring about the hard brexit he clearly wants
this wont be remembered as a corbyn/labour brexit (even if they helped it along)
Iraq War vote wouldve been lost by Labour - Corbyn, Abbot, Cook & >30% of labour MPs rebelled, only passed because 90% of Tory MPs voted for it
but thats not how history remembers it
In that, I don’t see any difference in motivation between Rees-Mogg and Corbyn
There's no difference in the intention to create real change rather than maintaining the status quo, but in every other way they are poles apart so comparing Corbyn to Rees-Mogg is pretty unfair.
As much as I'm utterly opposed to brexit, I find myself asking if it would be worth it in order to bring in properly radical policies such as UBI, a 4 day week, sustainable growth economics, fossil fuel free energy, unionised/cooperatively run industrial relations etc? Is that socialist utopia? I have no idea. I don't think it is in the classical sense, instead it looks very much to me like a modern political system which faces up to the modern problems (climate change, automation, oligarchy) and as far as I can see that's where the labour party is headed, which is the polar opposite of JRM et al. I don't know however whether that's dependent on brexit, but if it is I might be persuaded that it's a price worth paying.
Of Corbyn came out and explained why the EU is bad thing it might help.
But sitting there and doing nothing just makes him look like he's scared.
Of Corbyn came out and explained why the EU is bad thing it might help.
I suspect his stance on the EU is a tad more nuanced than whether it is simply good or bad. There's plenty to criticise, and also plenty to support. This is the problem with brexit obviously in asking people to take an absolutist position on something that has many pros and cons.
Anybody watching?
Cabinet meeting overrunning. No statement this evening.
Never mind Parliament, it might not even get past Cabinet.
General Election anybody?
In that case I’ll stick with my impression that its actually because you don’t have any answers. Like I said, I’ve no idea how you’re squaring this circle of support for Corbyn while all evidence points to him being a Hard Brexiteer who wants nothing more than a no deal Brexit
And I'll stick with my impression that you're an empty vessel, a petulant school child who plays to the gallery when he doesn't get his own way, isn't remotely interested in anything other than the sound of his own voice, and would much rather fling shit from the tree than actually do anything about the things he pretends to care about.
BBC now saying might not find out until tomorrow now, May has cancelled her press conference.
That's a lot of grandstanding from the brexiters before they finally capitulate.
Apparently May will now make a statement
**** this I'm off?
Apparently May will now make a statement
Waiting till the financial markets closed? Or till the evening editions have already been printed?
<div class="bbp-reply-author">zippykona
<div class="bbp-author-role">
<div class="">Subscriber</div>
</div>
</div>
<div class="bbp-reply-content">
Of Corbyn came out and explained why the EU is bad thing it might help.
He spent the entire pre-referendum campaign explaining why staying in the EU was a good thing.
</div>
At least the whole country can unite in hating her.
I don't, not over this anyway. As a remainer who feels the referendum should be honoured she's in a terrible position. With the details revealed so far I'm not sure what more she could do. Nothing will please remainers and as said there's 17 million different brexit opinions. My self despite believeing the referendum should be respected, a second referendum on the deal, when we have the full details might be a way out of this mess.
Really ? Her errors have made a bad situation much worse, calling early GE forcing her to rely on DUP, 'citizens of nowhere' speech & refusing to condem 'enemies of the people' attack on judges alienating remainers further, triggering A50 too early, agreeing EU schedule that even EU negotiators thought we'd object to, alienating EU by trying to cherrypick & go round barnier to nation heads, contradictory red lines, appointing Davis & Johnson .....
That's before you look at her littany of errors as home sec, many of which have compounded current issues....
Journos tweeting that the knives are out for May... again....
https://twitter.com/bbclaurak/status/1062769554345082880
https://twitter.com/RaynerSkyNews/status/1062765349517643777
https://twitter.com/bbclaurak/status/1062772056247492608
If this sweeps away the Tory old guard (Peter Bone etc.) Even if they totter off to UKIP then some good may (no pun) come of this fiasco. We could be watching the end of a political party as we know it.
There is a sesmic split and i doubt many will eat the shit sandwich thats just been put been put in front of them.
Thanks for your careful, considered answer to the question I asked you ransos.
Youre a true protégé of your hero. Going out of your way to engage with people who don’t agree with you and convince them of the validly of your arguament.
Anyway... back in the real world... the cabinet apparently have to be unanimous in their approval before they can progress anything. Fat chance!
The odds on that 10/1 on her being gone by today look good now.
There was a Tory on Five Live before saying that Article 50 should be suspended immediately
Mad times!
So apparently everyone in the cabinet has signed up for her proposal? Same as Chequers?
We can expect a couple of resignations within the next few hours then?
OMFG the state of that gammon on channel 4 news just now and his hand puppet daughter!
Going out of your way to engage with people who don’t agree with you and convince them of the validly of your arguament.
You're the expert there.
The “my heart” thing tells me it’s personal. She’s failed an agreement and she’ll resign.
So the cabinet spent 5 hours grandstanding & then agreed anyway, what a surprise 🙄 !
"As much as I’m utterly opposed to brexit, I find myself asking if it would be worth it in order to bring in properly radical policies such as..."
But this is the blue unicorn/red unicorn thing isn't it. What have those policies got to do with Brexit? Labour could just put them in the manifesto and campaign on them at the next GE.
The gammon on channel 4 news was terrifying!
“Why do the French own our water?!! It’s about ENGERLAND!!”
WTF?!
interesting that you had 3 Tory MPs interviewed (one being double-breasted sock-puppet Rees Mogg obviously). One said the rejection of Mays fudge would mean no brexit, one (Rees Mogg, obviously) that it would mean crashing out with no deal, the other that it would mean a second referendum
What a total ****ing farce!
That will go some way to healing divisions just because there is no other option than to get on with it.
No option but to get on with it but no divisions will be healed. There will not be more money for public services, greater freedom of movement for British workers, everyone won’t suddenly own a house etc. Any deal will enrich the few and overall people will sufferat least in the short- medium term
What have those policies got to do with Brexit? Labour could just put them in the manifesto and campaign on them at the next GE.
Hence why I said I didn't know! There are EU rules that prevent certain policies (state support for industry etc). I don't know much of the detail but if these sort of policies were prevented by being a member of the EU then that would make me consider whether it's worth being a member.
And talking of gammons, here's something that's been going round on facebook and sadly popped up on my timeline....
R.I.P. Gt Britain!!! You are too soft. You raised the cost of living so high that both parents are always at work, rather than spending time with their children. You took God out of schools. Parents were told 'No you can't discipline your kids'. Well, Gt Britain You shall reap what you sow, and we have lost a whole generation and turned them into rude, selfish, disrespectful brats who have no respect for people, property or authority! You deemed people with terminal illnesses<span class="text_exposed_show"> and some with only a few months to live…fit for work!!! You allow our veterans of war to go homeless and hungry but give out millions to foreign aid!!! You stop people’s entitlement to welfare benefits thus leaving them so desperate that they commit suicide!! You bend over backwards to be politically correct, too scared to say enough is enough, in case you offend. You put the retirement age up so people must work until they drop!! People depend on handouts and food banks, whilst we give aid to others. Our retired generation rely on inadequate state pensions, their thanks for working hard. Things need to change! Copy & paste if you have the guts too!!!</span>
The gammon on channel 4 news was terrifying!
“Why do the French own our water?!! It’s about ENGERLAND!!”
WTF?!
interesting that you had 3 Tory MPs interviewed (one being double-breasted sock-puppet Rees Mogg obviously). One said the rejection of Mays fudge would mean no brexit, one (Rees Mogg, obviously) that it would mean crashing out with no deal, the other that it would mean a second referendum
What a total ****ing farce!
At least one of the 3 is going to be right
Anyway… back in the real world… the cabinet apparently have to be unanimous in their approval before they can progress anything. Fat chance!
30 minutes later
So apparently everyone in the cabinet has signed up for her proposal? Same as Chequers?
I actually think I Pee'd in my own bath water sadly in the real world ....sure fire not a ****ing chance to oh shit in 30 minutes it made me giggle
I have that horrible sinking feeling I know which one
I have that horrible sinking feeling I know which one
Dont beat yourself up for the first time they actually had all bases covered....which is a start I suppose
I don’t know much of the detail
Correct.
If labour get in next they'll be able to blame anything and everything on brexit for years!
Correct.
By that I meant I don't know if the EU obstructs transformative radical policies. I suspect not, which is why I'm pro-EU membership. It would take a lot to change that.
‘For the first time they had all the bases covered?
In the same way a stopped clock tells the right time twice a day?
Remember when they all walked out of Chequers smiling, raising glasses, saying they were all in agreement, then as soon as he was out of there David Davis resigned, then Boris?
Nobody said a bloody word as they walked out of Downing Street tonight, all with faces like smacked arses.
I’d be amazed if we make it through the night without any resignations.
Its now laughable to even refer to this rabble as a government
In the same way a stopped clock tells the right time twice a day?
Possibly
DUPed
Or how big a bung this time gladys
Bring Blair and Mandleson back, quick for the love of god, we didn't mean the war criminal stuff - we forgive you Tony. Just come back and sort these ****ing idiots out. Things were rock n roll when we had you, I mean...Oasis and wars and shit.....it all seems so fun now. Please come back. The countries being run by senile, batty dementia ridden weirdos - it's just not cool or funny anymore.
So apparently everyone in the cabinet has signed up for her proposal? Same as Chequers?
We can expect a couple of resignations within the next few hours then?
Yep that was exactly my take on it too.
Still, Rees-Mogg hates it so that's a plus point.
I thought the C4 news section at the Doncaster market was a funny but tragic metaphor for post Brexit trade. Reminded me of this comedy sketch about why Germans can't get enough of English markets.
I felt for the EU supporting trader who would have to pass on the increased cost of his hand grenades to his Dutch customers.
It’s not a light read that document 🙂
hmm whens the vote then should be interesting.
Or how big a bung this time gladys
I think the idea they’re going to use labour to vote it thru means they don’t need her/them anymore.
I reckon the honeymoons over.
I think the idea they’re going to use labour to vote it thru means they don’t need her/them anymore.
But labour aren't.
This feels more like
I'll bet the local knife sharpeners are doing a roaring trade tonight.
Just looked at the bookies and the odds on the resignations of the suggested brexiteers resignations have come right down.
May has to deliver a speech to Parliament in the morning. Someone’s going to go and grab the headlines and resign in the lead up too it, to launch their leadership bid (or their supporting role in somebody else’s...) with the blue rinse old cadavers who will get to decide such matters
“When you strip away the detail, the choice before us is clear, this deal … or leave with no deal, or no Brexit at all.”
Theresa suggesting Brexit might not happen?
Wow, there really has been some progress.
The usual suspects are on newsnight saying how they’ve sent their letters in to trigger a vote of no confidence in Theresa May
Yeah... right.
If all those chinless *-wits actually had done that every time they said they’d done so, she’d have survived 97 no confidence votes by now.
Yet another example of how we’ve learnt what lying, back-sliding, spineless bluffing *s this lot are.
She clearly knows that.
Anyone heard from Corbyn yet?
Of course not. Daft question.
Busy time of year on the allotment I suppose. All that clipping and pruning to be done.
I’m sure someone will bring him up to speed some time tomorrow over a herbal tea so he can consider his position and state his that in a few weeks time, after he’s made a 25 statements on Venezuela and Palestine
The rest of the Labour front bench must be giving him a hand . Maybe they’re all at a comemorative memorial service for one of Che Guervaras horses or something?
Theresa suggesting Brexit might not happen?
Is this the first time she's mentioned this? Is she playing for remain via a 2nd ref now?
Anyone heard from Corbyn yet?
Yep, he said the deal's crap and they'll vote it down. There's more than enough ERG nutters in the Tory party to make that happen.
When was that Molls? This morning, before the actual cabinet meeting? At the regular PMQ’s his inconveniently contractually obliged to turn up to every week? Taking him briefly away from his cabbages?
There’s been the usual tumbleweed blowing from the Labour front bench. Nothing. Silence. The echoing sound of pointlessness.
They might as well replace her majesties opposition with the remaining Chuckle brother. He’d do a better ****ing job.
It was on the BBC live feed an hour or so ago Binners. Reiterated at 23.03 apparently. Surely you're following the feed?
Is she playing for remain via a 2nd ref now?
Dont be daft she told us strong stable Brexit means brexit
So missed all the 10 o clock evening news broadcasts and newsnight, where they were noticeable by their absence, but released later for the Twitter echo chamber to retweet’s some meaningless sound bites? Brilliant!
Genius media management! Superb!
And what would Malcolm have to say about that....?
Binners- on the Grauniad live feed and BBc feed well before 10 pm were Corbyns statements. so he had his statement out there just ignored by the TV news as he often is.
Ignored by the TV news? Ignored? No, poor timing.
Anyway… sounds good. Except, what is he proposing that is materially different to May's plan?
Northern Ireland minister falls on sword
In summary without all the cliches and terminology (aka dumb it down for me please) why is it good, or bad?
It's shit because it's a fake leave that manages to severely damage and weaken the UK while not providing any of the theoretical upsides. And it still leaves us with neverending brexit negotiations for the rest of our lives. It's not even the end of the beginning.
The draft deal?
It does not satisfy the rabids as we effectively are in an indefinite customs union and thus cannot make trade deals independently and the EU have to agree we can leave. It does not satisfy the remainers as we lose all influence in the EU and its far worse than being a member The DUP hate it as it enshrines a distinctly different set up for NI compared to the rest of the UK, The SNP hate it as its means NI has advantages over scotland ie they get a special deal but scotland does not.
Its a gawdawful fudge that acheives nothing bar making life harder for UK companies to trade in the EU
Its a piece of genius to come up with a compromise that not only satisfies no one but even the centre think is rubbish
We’re not in good or bad deal territory. We’ve not had a good deal option since the referendum.
Its a question of which option is the least shit.
On one point only I will actually defend the govt. There never was the possibility of a good brexit deal.
the EU cherry picked the city and left the rest in limbo
Given Theresa May's track record in every Govt department she's run. That she's made a complete horlicks of this comes as no surprise.