[Closed] EU Referendum - are you in or out?

Really?
The EU has protections for people, what will be bundled into the great repeal bill?
What will the government choose to sacrifice for the economic growth it really needs?
How can a UK that is not performing address pension black holes?
How can the UK push for affordable housing etc.
How you you prevent things like longer hours, less statutory benifits etc.

If you have a house paid for you won't mind interest rate hikes, if you have rental properties it's probably a bonus.
If you have decent pension pot then you have an income later in life, how would you fare with a 1% employer contribution and no disposable income?

Care to explain why any of that is actual exageration? There are millions of people who will be either in negative equity and arrears with an interest rate rise, more who at this point will never own property, will never save enough for retirement and have to pay for more over their life times.

Perhaps that is what is being missed. Suggesting people "Get over it" is fairly patronising isn't it. As said nobody at UKIP thought like that, the swival eyed loons on the right of the tory party didn't give up trying to screw it all up.
Remember the demographics, those who support Brexit the most have the shortest time to endure the consequences, those who have the next 50-70 years to live under it might be the people to look to.

Two votes, one detect, the other indirect. Same result. Get over it....

Rarely have reason take issue with you THM, but this second vote you speak of?

If your referring to the GE, then I reckon that was a vote against austerity NOT Brexit. You've no proof that it was a vote for Brexit - it's just your opinion....so don't, please, opine as if it were fact. It really isn't & the GE result really was about austerity with Brexit beings secondary issue.

Enough pain hasn't been felt yet fit folks to realise that no matter how bad austerity was - Brexit has the potential to make things a lot worse...

Why was the election called? What were the key issues? Austrerity???? Another misnomer...

Mike - there is little point in listing a whole lot of issues as then saying they are brexshit's fault. That is simply the mirror image of what the Brexshiteers did themselves and neither stances hold up to scrutiny. If you have no disposable income and no pension pot then you are screwed, Brexshit or no Brexshit. Making a few banners and jumping up and down will not change that.

It was called for obvious reasons but I don't believe for one second nearly 75% of the voting electorate now favour Brexit.

That's a huge swing from a virtual 50/50 split, one of which has probably happened never before in politics.

I don't believe it as it so unlikely to be beyond improbable verging on impossible.

I'm sure you don't believe it either.....

Or do you??

No but only one of three major parties campaigned to overturn the decision - and their message was left largely unheard/ignored

Strip away the noise and both parties are working toward some form of bespoke deal and we will need a very long transition period to execute it. So plenty of time to adjust still...

Indeed.

Though I do wonder if the Libs were ignored because A. their time in coalition & B. They don't have the financial clout of the other 2 & so can't campaign in a way that'll counter.

one of three major parties

Are you old enough to remember when the Libs were a major party? Gosh.

Mike - there is little point in listing a whole lot of issues as then saying they are brexshit's fault. That is simply the mirror image of what the Brexshiteers did themselves and neither stances hold up to scrutiny. If you have no disposable income and no pension pot then you are screwed, Brexshit or no Brexshit. Making a few banners and jumping up and down will not change that.

In a little over 18 months time the UK government whoever that is will be faced with one of 3 probable options.
1) TM's Take ball home (TM) Hard Brexit where we leave with nothing but pissed off neighbours and WTO if we are lucky.
2) The EU's best offer which will be deeply unpalitable to the UKIP/Right/Euro skeptic lot long with being worse for a lot of regular people
3) The apologise and call the whole thing off option that others were hinting at.

The will of the people when faced with the sort of headlines that will be coming out of the negotiations will heavily influence the direction the government takes at that point.
So Option A - sit on hands, keep quiet and wait.
Option B get involved and get stuck in to influencing the direction of the UK.

I can't believe people are truly suggesting that less involvment, less engagement and less interest in the political process is a good thing.

Fundamental fact of FPTP, its broken, do you vote for who you want and get who you don't want or do you vote for the party most likely to vote for the party most likely to defeat the incumbent?

For an election where the choice was Brexit v Brexit and austerity v investment is it a surprise that the vote went the way it did.

Option C - focus on the day job. It's going to be a long haul in the meantime. Responding to the daily noise would be rather pointless.

Are you old enough to remember when the Libs were a major party? Gosh.

Yes I do remember when they last formed a government - I thought they did an ok job in difficult circumstances too.

One of the reasons why the UK economy recovered relatively strongly is that austerity was abandoned ages ago in favour of one of the loosest fiscal policies in the developed world - bloody Tories (and Libs). On top of that our central bank's stole money off savers and the financially prudent in order to bail out the indebted. Not that any of this is part of the popular narrative on social media.

Guess you're taking a break from the thread then. Bye.

The general election was about making sure the Tories didn't get the mandate they thought was their due, on brexit or austerity. Voting liberal would have split the vote. Anyone who thinks the vote was an endorsement of brexit because labour's position is vaguely positive on it is deluded - they just couldn't afford to have their vote split, so they kept out of the argument deliberately to get their ukip votes back.

Didn't they do well then?

If you listen to Starmer carefully you might get a different version, but don't let that get in the way.

Remarkedly well considering where the starting position was. It'sm meant that everything is up for grabs/bribes and the very high likelhood of another election before the end of the negotiations or sign on the line time.
Perfect time to keep a high level of pressure on MP's and engagement with people.

Yes I do remember when they last formed a government -

That would make the DUP the third major party these days 🙂

How many cabinet/ministerial positions do they hold? I missed the announcement.

How many cabinet/ministerial positions do they hold? I missed the announcement

It was right after the one about how many the Liberals hold - weren't you listening?

But you can't disentangle Brexit and austerity.
Austerity has seen libraries, close, potholes get bigger, sure start centres shut down, youth clubs closed, social care collapse and councils face their biggest funding cuts in decades, in a stroke of xenophobic genius all of these failings have been scapegoated on the EU by an unchecked rightwing press and a hardcore of egotistical politicians who see a red white and blue path to power.

Labour where deliberately vague on Brexit b4 the election, but it's a dangerous game, the youth don't want it but many of the oldies do (in the ref what was it 65% of labour voters were remain Vs 35% of Tories?).

Osborne may be having a lot of fun at the ES exposing the incompetence and idiocy of May and the Tories as they make everything they touch a crisis right now but it was his and Cameron's austerity that stoked all this division and their leadership failure that left the swivel eyed in his party unchecked

Austerity has seen libraries, close, potholes get bigger, sure start centres shut down, youth clubs closed, social care collapse and councils face their biggest funding cuts in decades

Sorry kimbers, those things have nothing to do with austerity, they're all to do with... umm... well THM will be along in a minute to explain.

they're all to do with.

The real problem going forward is there is nothing left to sell, well we could privatise the army can't see how that would go wrong. The Shell SAS dropping in to secure some oil wells before the AMEC Navy blew something up so they could get a contract to rebuild it.

Yes you can - to conflate them is to deliberately attempt to confuse. Brexshit is about how we want to engage with our biggest trading partner. Austerity is (you choose) but it is about the balance between government spending and government revenue and how to manage this. The fact that it (the gap) is relatively high at the moment - as it should be - seems to have escaped most. Of course, within the overall debate, there have been winners and losers (such as the ones you highlight) but that is what economics is all about - the allocation of scarce resources.

That's what this Brexit nonsense is really going to result in - damage to the incomes of anyone but the mega-rich and a bonfire of employment legislation in the name of 'being competitive in the international arena'

Get over it....

Part one you missed the THM - the conditions that caused Brexit, anti government austerity protest votes, under investment in communities, lack of resourcing which as pointed out allowed the right and brexit to blame immigration, to blame the EU etc.

Part two austerity, cuts, public sector pay caps and things like housing inequality are really really hurting people. It's putting people to the wall so the losers appear to be those who can least afford it.

Part three as it's widely accepted that brexit will have further negative impacts on the economy after the slide on the pound etc. or as your put it a long transition period. The impacts of what is being felt will be very hard to reverse.

There is no such thing as an issue in isolation. These 2 in particular are heavily linked and the outcomes will depend on each other.

Again - conflating issues doesn't solve them. It merely leads to sloppy thinking and the wrong "solutions"

Brexshit is bad for the economy, we agree, but that has not stopped people deciding that this is what they prefer. Appreciate its a weird choice, but there you go.....

Trying to deal with things in isolation simply leads to academic solutions and nice text book examples, it's not the real world. Brexit and Austerity are part of this decade, they are occurring and happening in one form or another across the board.

Brexit must consider the economic impacts and the limitations that will place on the UK going forward - like no public sector pay rises for 5 years or more, or no new schools, no 350 million/week on the NHS.

Try finding a Brexit Mandate with that message then when presented with a final deal that will probably not deliver what the brexit lot wanted, not satisfy the remaining majority or deliver stability for the UK what should be done?

I am not suggesting looking at things in isolation - that is exactly where the Austerity misunderstanding comes from ie, if you look at specific areas in isolation you could conclude that austerity is a reality - and in the personal context that is perfectly understandable - when in the broader contest it is/was a myth. There has been no austerity at the aggregate level, on the contrary we have continued to spend more than we receive (we = the state)

For many people including Scottish (G)Nats the economy is a side show anyway - it's about sovereignty and this mythical goal of taking back control. Note that jambas was happy to accept ST economic pain for wider goals.

FWIW! I doubt very much that the final solution will resemble what the hard Brexshiteers want - both sides are too sensible for that as its a lose:lose

Option C - focus on the day job.

Off you trot then… your contributions since your return have been utterly pointless. So much effort going into telling others not to call for a change from the damaging course we all can see we are currently on.

Try finding a Brexit Mandate with that message then when presented with a final deal that will probably not deliver what the brexit lot wanted, not satisfy the remaining majority or deliver stability for the UK what should be done?

There is no form of exit from the EU that will have more support from the British public than remaining in the EU. This has been clear for years. Current Leave support is such a broad church that it'll shatter in contact with any real deal, hence the need to keep the will of the people the hell away from the process. Hence an early GE well away from the crunch point of actually knowing how we will or will have left. Hence the idea of another referendum, once the form of exit is clear, being labelled undemocratic.

There is no form of exit from the EU that will have more support from the British public than remaining in the EU.

And you claim that my posts are pointless!!! 😯 or should that be 😀

The point being that Brexit is a minority belief. You can't dress the GE result as Brexit support as much as DT winning the popular vote. The reality is biting and people don't like it, more turmoil, more pain and no certainty of staying or leaving.

It may be a minority view, but sadly, it was still bigger than our remain one. The inconvenient fact.

As was the fact that the two main parties who received the highest percentage of the GE vote were both clear that they were supporting Brexshit, however much they have reservations at the personal level. Small thing called democracy apparently - another inconvenient fact.

What a bummer....

thm I thought you were going for option c

Yeah, you seem resigned to go with whatever shit happens, well done for that.
It's terribly British, like going to parties with people you hate because you couldn't say no, buying people you hate Christmas presents and pretending to like everyone at work.

the context was now, it is NOW a minority belief, if asked again the answer would be remain and given the situation & prospects have one trajectory then I fully expect support to mirror Trumps approvals.

It was perhaps democracy to trigger A50, it would be suicide to condemn at least a generation to pain and poverty to simply honour a non legally binding referendum.

Remember all those schools and hospitals who's funding will be cut to rewrite legislation and to send Dr Fox off hunting 2p worth of bilateral trade.

I am but waiting for databases to update !!

On the contrary - getting on with things is simply better than wasting time on the past. Prepare for the worst, hope for the best. Better than placards and demos that will achieve nothing.

Most of us are [b]preparing[/b] for Brexit, and [b]hoping[/b] it can be stopped (or reversed).

What are you hoping for THM?

Look, we get that you obviously don't think brexit is bad enough to be worth objecting to. Some of us think it is. Objecting to us objecting to it seems particularly pointless, because you haven't presented any plausible arguments why we are wrong.

I think he is going to put them on his placards.
[img] [/img]

Why are you suddenly interested in pointless opinions?

But FWIW, a classic EU fudge with a ten year transition period ie, lots of noise but very little real impact. (At that point and only then, we will know what the EU will look like and whether we want to be part of EUiv). Hence getting on with the day job. Talking of which....

It's becoming increasingly obvious that there's a gulf between the Brexit promised by the hard right Brexiteers back in 2016 and what we're looking at now. It's a relief to see the tone from the government and press changing from shrill jingoism to something approaching realpolitik.

I suspect that the editorship of the News International papers, Telegraph, Mail and Express have realised that the window of opportunity for hard Brexit, with the bonfire of regulations and hollowing out of the state has passed and has proved divisive and unpopular.

Brexshit is bad for the economy, we agree, but that has not stopped people deciding that this is what they prefer. Appreciate its a weird choice, but there you go.....

Ah, the "reluctant" brexiter.

They wanted to activate article 50 the morning after the vote because they knew they had a time limit on getting what they wanted, a year on has already demonstrated this, and a long transitional arrangement will completely kill brexit.

Bring it on.

@teamhurtmore see @kelvin's post I told you where wasting your time 😉 STW political posters prefer to exist in their own vacuum.

At least the outgoing EU President gets the joke, the EU mishandled the Cameron negotiations taking a punt that Leave couldn't win and even in that case that the UK would stay in

[b]“Our presidency had also to deal with Brexit. This disastrous creature which all of us should have seen coming but none of us acted to stop,” he told an audience including European Commission President Jean-Claude Junker[/b]

Intersting piece from ex Irish Ambassador in his new book, in his view Ireland needs to understand / acknowledge it's interests are not at all aligned with the EU over Brexit

even Cummings is carefully admitting brexits gonna be a mistake
though hes obviously blaming the current tory government for messing it all up

http://jackofkent.com/2017/07/in-some-possible-branches-of-the-future-leaving-will-be-an-error-an-exchange-about-brexit-with-dominic-cummings/

the electorate wont forget the lies that took them here

@tmh Brexit will be very positive for the economy unshackling us from the economic catastrophe which is the EU and allowing us (indeed forcing us in some cases) to re-double our focus more globally, to concentrate on where the growth and opportunity is.

Saw that Kimbers, Cummings seems to believe in the theory called "creative destruction", knock over an ants nest and see if it will be re-made better.

He obviously thinks he's a genius...but the machinations of a certain political party means he is sitting in the corner of the classroom wearing a coned hat with the letter D written on it.

But it is a timely reminder to all of us that these people are prepared to burn the house down with little or no consideration as to who is in it at that moment.

After Brexit: Will Ireland be next to exit ?

https://policyexchange.org.uk/publication/after-brexit-will-ireland-be-next-to-exit/

Written by an ex-Irish Ambassador to the UK

Ireland is most exposed economically to the UK of the EU 27. Putting all it's eggs in the EU basket with respect to Brexit negotiations is a mistake argues the author