Labour aren't hard left.
the tories are not really hard right either
There are elements in both party's, which for me, occupy the harder left & right respectively.
For that I trust neither.
A Tory split is looking increasingly likely unless they want to be out of power for a generation. They're simply no longer fit for purpose now globalisation is among us and we've moved to be much more socially liberal over the last 20+ years.
I have to say it's not something I ever expected to see after Tony Blair was forced to push Labour to the Right as Maggie had done such a solid job in moving the country to the Right...
Interesting times. My deep Blue Tory parents will be bereft however.
It seems to me the very obvious and very massive elephant in the room is the opportunity for a new party who are economically right of centre (create the wealth in a responsible, sustainable manner so it can then be distributed more evenly), but socially liberal with a huge chunk of seeking a more equal society, a la Macron/En Marche. They'd mop up a huge proportion of the electorate - the more liberal old, a big chunk of the middle aged and loads of the young...
Who's going to step up and do it?
dissonance - Member
Just need someone to be strong enough to say to **** with the will of the people.Can you imagine the hate the mail, sun and telegraph would come up with?
POSTED 4 HOURS AGO # REPORT-POST
Strangely enough I couldn't give a shit was those comics think.
3.2 millions eu immigrants allowed to stay, must be a few Brexiters very disappointed they are not being Sent home.
My line manager voted Brexit because she thinks we have too many immigrants. She has, however, happily sold her overpriced house to a bunch of Kuwaitis. That's how principled and adult the anti-immigrant lot really are...
A credible 3rd choice is desperately needed,
You might do, I am quite happy with Corbyn's Labour party.
She has, however, happily sold her overpriced house to a bunch of Kuwaitis
But they are the good immigrants with money, we obviously want those ones.
You might do, I am quite happy with Corbyn's Labour party.
I'm not. The party needs to get to the centre to win. It would have walked the last election considering the absolute shower of sh*t the tories were.
Indeed, a genuinely central party is far less polarising than a party that stands either to te right or the left.
It maybe a compromise but it's a compromise that only upsets those at the edges of our political spectrum...IMHO.
In the sense that 80-90 % of the electorate unite in disliking it ?
essentially you are middle of the road and the electorate is not - as shown by your lack of electoral success over the last 100 years- and the compromise only pleases those who can only muster 10% of the electorate
I wish you luck in persuading folk that your vision is the best as so far it has fallen somewhat flat.
& I it puzzles me no end as to why that is....
It must be a societal thing rather than a political thing - after all haven't a liberal party just won in France?
Am I right in saying Macron is liberal?
as so far it has fallen somewhat flat.
so far yes but.... the times, they are a-changin' as per all the talk at the moment. What's different this time is we've finally realised that 2008 crash was not the source of the problem but the problem making itself known i.e. we've had our time and we've been living on money borrowed from the future for too long.
Labour and Tory parties worked well enough when UK was leading the world but increasingly global leadership has to be shared with China and India, plus quite likely Africa, and we have to learn to adapt to a globalised world in which we are merely one of many. Therefore working with our trading partners and compromising will become essential if we want to maintain power and influence (in part what the EU was all about in the first place!). Taking gunboats over to developing/poor countries and nicking all their resources is 18/18th century strategy but no longer effective... time we learnt to adapt...
The French are appearing to be ahead of us in this right now.
essentially you are middle of the road and the electorate is not
Not true though is it?
I'm tempted to agree - we've a hung parliament (despite what Jambas bloody thinks...) doesn't that indicate an unsettled electorate?
brooess - Member
...Taking gunboats over to developing/poor countries and nicking all their resources is 18/18th century strategy but no longer effective... time we learnt to adapt...
Luckily you've still got Scotland. But there will be a period of adaptation coming up there too... 🙂
out of interest, what is the french term for french people working abroad what about the Germans, do they have the word ex-pat???
out of interest, what is the french term for french people working abroad what about the Germans, do they have the word ex-pat???
Henning Wehn likes to point out that foreigners in the UK are called 'immigrants' but Brits abroad are called 'ex-pats'. It's especially funny when it's a German immigrant telling the joke 🙂
Henning Wehn likes to point out that foreigners in the UK are called 'immigrants' but Brits abroad are called 'ex-pats'. It's especially funny when it's a German immigrant telling the joke
why i was curious, is it a UK thing, or do other countries have the same attitude?
essentially you are middle of the road and the electorate is not
Not true though is it?
Which bit?
he is arguing labour and tories are to the right and left so presumably the libs are in the middle and not doing well electorally.
If more folk agreed with him then the libs would be one of the main two parties
Same word in French mrmo, les expatriés. Germans use Expat or Auswanderer.
Taking gunboats over to developing/poor countries and nicking all their resources is 18/18th century strategy but no longer effective... time we learnt to adapt
Can you give an example of where we did that (or something like it) recently, and where the French have differed?
Kuwait and Iraq.
Kuwait? Seriously?
To me, gunboat diplomacy is forcing a country to trade with you on pain of violence or severe sanctions. Kuwait was defending an ally, wasn't it?
No - invading Iraq was all about getting control of the oil.
Don't start this shit again.
Bad example - try another.
If you read the posts in order you started it, Molgrips.
I was referring to the Iraq war was only about oil conspiracy thing.
Give us another example, go on.
Well if it wasn't nicking resources it was a crusade as Bush explained to Chirac. Unless you have an alternative I haven't heard of, Molgrips.
What the **** has 18th century gunboat diplomacy (or just gunboat policy) got to do with Brexit and it being a colossally bad idea?
I know we're 841 pages in and probably scratching around a bit, but even so.......
Brexit is a colossally bad idea. Primarily economically, but also because it reflects the UK in a very bad light as an insular, petty and racist little island that isn't even grateful for its privileged status. A status mostly gained in a less ethical era when seeing a bloke in a grass skirt, shooting him and nicking his country was the accepted custom. That and industrialsing with no knowledge or regard for finite resources and the environment. But hey, we don't want to share.
Colonial attitudes and Brexit go hand in hand. Same in France: Macron came under fire from National Front Frexit types for being apologetic about French behaviour during the occupation of North Africa.
Well if it wasn't nicking resources it was a crusade as Bush explained to Chirac. Unless you have an alternative I haven't heard of, Molgrips.
I refer you to the statement I made a few posts ago.
Do you have another example of gunboat diplomacy in the last ten years or so?
I'm not. The party needs to get to the centre to win. It would have walked the last election considering the absolute shower of sh*t the tories were
I think the opposite, and I think the evidence points more to the left. Shift to the centre and the political differences become too similar and personality becomes the issue not policy.
We just have to wait for enough of the electorate to see sense undoing what the right has instilled in them.
What the **** has 18th century gunboat diplomacy (or just gunboat policy) got to do with Brexit and it being a colossally bad idea?I know we're 841 pages in and probably scratching around a bit, but even so.....
The point is that our historic way of dealing with the world is no longer applicable and we need to learn to share and be interdependent with all kinds of countries all over the world, especially ones who used to be poor but are now becoming very rich (and therefore powerful) - as a matter of great urgency - if we want to remain relevant, have influence and to maintain our living standards, and to help ensure we don't become the target of someone else's empirical ambitions!
The point is that our historic way of dealing with the world is no longer applicable
Define historic.
Before the empire we were fairly isolated by European standards. Then we started conquering the world, then we started giving it back. Arguably Suez was the last time we threw our weight around. So in modern times, we've been pretty much as we are now, as far as I can tell.
Which is why I'm asking for examples of where we've been trying to coerce others with our might from say 60s onwards? I don't think supporting allies e.g. the US counts.
If more folk agreed with him then the libs would be one of the main two parties
That's not true either. The voting system favours the two main parties. If someone votes lib dem, it splits the vote.
Don't think for one moment that everyone who voted Labour actually want a Corbyn government.
. So in modern times, we've been pretty much as we are now, as far as I can tell.
We use the aid budget for that sort of thing, not for coercion, more for favours.
In the last few months, Molgrips.
[url= http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/04/04/new-spanish-patrol-boat-incursion-gibraltars-waters/ ]Gunboat diplomacy in Gibralta[/url]
The comical thing being that in this case Britain needs Spain to agree to any agreement with the UK that's better than no deal at all.
Don't think for one moment that everyone who voted Labour actually want a Corbyn government.
Again, I did and happy that I could actually vote for a party close to my ideals (be even better if they went a bit more left)
The most sensible balanced option is to have a cross party coalition where all views/stances are taken into account and agreed. Seems to work well in some countries and the government gets more trust as they are working together to put in place the best policies for the country rather than non stop squabbling and points scoring.
Having said that it wouldn't be for me though.
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/jun/27/eu-workers-leave-uk-deloitte-brexit
Meanwhile more Brexit news. I know it's i the Guardian, but it says a lot about how immigrants from the EU are feeling welcome here.
I work with a lot of highly skilled EU colleagues, 50% sounds about right.
It's the uncertainty that's the problem, many are looking at getting our have mortgages, children, etc etc.
They've not fit much choice but to look for work elsewhere in the EU.
Caroline Flint gets it and has listened to her constituents
"Ignoring Brexit would be bollix" she tells a Labour Progressives conference 🙂
Did anyone actually read the Deloitte's piece yesterday ?
9/10 foreign workers are very interested in relocating to the UK for "the right opportunty". There is a long line of people ready to apply for a work visa.
Brexshit is utterly toxic and will destroy anyone who attempts to deal with it. So I'm happy for now that it's entirely the tories domain. Hopefully labour will have seen sense before the crap drops into their lap. But that's their lookout. If they take it on, it will destroy them too.
