Now THAT'S an interesting stat... ^^^
I am not a clairvoyant, i simply look at things from other folks perspectives so –
Here’s my perspective, being Scottish and that we voted to remain as a nation within the EU the first time around.....
1 : Scotland increases its remain vote so the rest of the UK can do whatever the **** it wants,
2 : Scotland waves goodbye to its insular illinformed neighbour but extends a welcoming hand to anyone of any race or culture wishing to join us,
3 : sell underpants, prosper on profits *
* = reference to South Park money making scheme by underpant gnomes
The whole country is broken and dysfunctional. The working poor have been completely used and abused by the very people pushing for a hard brexit. 90% of their woes have been created by these people (Tories mainly) and yet they can not see it
Absolutely. One of the worst things Brexit has done is mask the terrible idealogical shove of austerity.
And still they come out on top.
2. Moderate brexiteers will vote leave as they have been fed anti EU shit by the daily mail JRM etc.
3. We now have some “new” Brexiteers who have been convinced by the Daily Mail JRM etc that the EU is nasty. 1 2 and 3 think Nissan, Jaguar etc are lying about jobs.
Have you met any of those people?
Analysis shows people becoming annoyed by brexit and seeing through the lies. Polls show this movement is happening.
Does anyone know a Remainer who now wants to leave?
I know 3 leavers who will now vote remain just to stop my shop going tits up.
Why do leavers not want a vote on anything?
They are scared.
The last time a politician offered a vote on the EU they couldn't have been happier.
Strategically, keeping all doors open and then setting the tory unity machine on itself would be a better strategy, you don’t know who you would face in a winter GE at this point. Best to know where the battle is before letting the plans slip.
Political parties used used to have long term policies and values. Waiting for your opponent to say something stupid then saying you will do the opposite when you have no intentions as it doesn’t meet your now secret value system is just a power grab that is doomed to failure.
once in power you will revert to you values which may not be what people want as they were not explicitly voting for them. Much like Brexit, if you leave it ambiguous people will be disappointed because you will not deliver what they wanted.
We have to accept that about half of this country is pissed off, thick, misled, poorly educated, misinformed and disenfranchised – why this is i dont understand compared to Thatchers times this current world is significantly better with shed loads more opportunity for education, business and employment.
It is better now than in the 70s, there's just mass psychological malaise at the fact that outgroups that they once looked down on are doing better than them here and all over the world. They now have to pay rent to Chinese landowners, who they once saw as "gooks". They realise that education is the answer, but there's always been this anti-intellectual "Just another brick in the wall's mentality in parts of this country, so education is viewed with a lot of cognitive dissonance/sour grapes.
I also think Leave is more likely to win than lose another referendum.
But I don't see any other way to try and stop this.
Neither party will be standing on a Remain or EEA ticket at a general election. Zero chance of that happening. Even if they did, the betrayal narrative used against them would be overwhelmingly strong.
We have to accept that about half of this country is pissed off, thick, misled, poorly educated, misinformed
I don't think all remainers fall into that camp.
I'm pretty certain someone has already dismissed those ones based on some population data
5. Not enough old folks have passed away to change the percentages significantly
6. Not enough young folk have turned 18 to change the percentage significantly
Couple of paragraphs in
Well this has gone off-piste hasn’t it. Tin-hat conspiracy theories aside, what amuses me is that there seems to be some confusion as to whether Corbyn is an idealistic hard brexit zealot, or a power hungry cynic who’ll do anything to win an election. Clearly his tactic of keeping everyone guessing is working a treat
Not my confusion ...
Brexit aside... my question is really is Corbyn a zealot to his brand of socialism above the welfare of the people.
Putting Brexit back in... the question I am asking is will he roll the dice on a small chance of implementing his socialist utopia above what is pragmatically best for his membership and the country as a whole?
My thoughts based on his actions are that "the cause" is more important to him than the reasons for it.
I don’t think all remainers fall into that camp.
Indeed.
You were a remainer too though weren’t you?
Does anyone know a Remainer who now wants to leave?
Myself currently.
I think the people that have voted have made their bed. They should be shown what they have done.
If we about turn we play straight into a scenario that will never die.
Also I'm a bit frustrated at the constant threats from big businesses about leave. That does grate me.
Heart is still a remainer.<span style="font-size: 0.8rem;"> I would still vote remain in a second ballot.</span>
my question is really is Corbyn a zealot to his brand of socialism above the welfare of the people.
No
May is at the UN today. Before she heads there she will give a speech to US business leaders stressing that Britain will be a low-tax economy, post Brexit, and talk about the opportunities Brexit will afford them
She won’t obviously be coming out and saying explicitly what ‘opportunities’ being free from EU regulation will afford American corporate interests, but I don’t think you need to be a genius to work it out.
And it’s highly unlikely that those interests will be the same as the interests of the poor suckers who were conned in to voting for this, who are about to get royally shafted!
Our journey to a deregulated, low skill, low wage sweatshop economy with its capital city as the Worlds biggest tax haven and money laundering centre are well underway.
Thats what she’ll be selling today
If we about turn we play straight into a scenario that will never die
The gammons need something to hate.
If we leave they will just go back to hating all the things we hated in the 70s.
My thoughts based on his actions are that “the cause” is more important to him than the reasons for it.
I would say you have selected an overly simplistic set of outcomes.
Really there are four if Labour managed to push for a second referendum.
Remain: Labour lose support in heartlands and is wiped out.
Remain: Labour doesnt get much out of it since most of those pledging support will go with whatever the next bribe is.
Leave: Labour gets blamed for the mess and is wiped out.
Leave: Tories are, correctly, blamed for the mess and Labour does ok.
Its not whether it is worth risking destroying Labour due to the backlash which would allow the tories to impose an even more extreme free market utopia on everyone. Bearing in mind the "moderate" zealots in Labour are still desperate to try and destroy the idea that labour should be mildly left wing and so will also be waiting to pounce.
I think the people that have voted have made their bed. They should be shown what they have done.
That seems to be the perfect definition of cutting your nose to spite your face.
No reason to assume labour will be wiped out in heartlands if we remain. Labour should be able to explain easily why the brexishambles has been entirely the Tories fault.
That seems to be the perfect definition of cutting your nose to spite your face.
Combined with a bit of I'm alright jack
I’m interested to see what Sturgeon will do after the relative shift following Starmer’s speech yesterday. I wonder what her next move is.
That seems to be the perfect definition of cutting your nose to spite your face.
Nope. This won't affect everyone in the same way.
And I'm not alright jack.
And we all don't know the absolute outcome here.
I happen to think austerity is the bigger issue.
The gammons need something to hate.
If we leave they will just go back to hating all the things we hated in the 70s.
First part is true.
However I would imagine gammons liked a lot of the 70's. For a start you could call a black person a darky on telly.
Labour should be able to explain easily why the brexishambles has been entirely the Tories fault.
Yeah since I am sure the media will accurately report those details. After all they have done such a good job on the EU in past and Labour recently havent they?
I am also sure that the labour moderates would stand behind Corbyn and not try and use it as another excuse to launch an attack.
If labour go pro eu I will vote for them. I am a member of the lib Dems.
Mrs Zip will vote for them.
I'm sure some remain tories will vote for them.
They don't need to worry about losing votes.
my question is really is Corbyn a zealot to his brand of socialism above the welfare of the people.
No
Then if that's the case that is what is confusing....
He seems more concerned about being elected than Brexit... and much as another cycle under the Tory's might not be attractive that is a limited and fixable thing compared the irrepairable effect Brexit will have on his membership.
DD; playing the long game and demanding more time still, she cannot lose here as a no-deal Brexit would quite possibly be tipping point for the Union. Bearing in mind the no vote in the 2014 ref was warning us we would be eating our children by the end of our first winter, the similar situation that a no-deal exit will bring is playing right into her hands. I was chatting to a workmate on Monday who brought up the thought that if the first ref had never happened a no deal Brexit would pretty much guarantee independence as Westminster would be too busy tearing itself to pieces and the financial arguments would be much shakier to effectively convince us to vote no.
Sigh, that was a good thread,the indy one...if only there was somebody to come on and make up silly names for Scottish politicians and constantly quote that " the truth is out there." to make me feel all nostalgic.
They don’t need to worry about losing votes.
How long will this pledge remain in effect for?
He seems more concerned about being elected than Brexit… and much as another cycle under the Tory’s might not be attractive
Its more than another cycle though isnt it? Its the moderate extremists waiting in the wings to try and drag the party rightwards again which, incidentally, would then stand a good chance of setting up another brexit campaign when they continue with the old game of ignore the heartlands to chase the swing voters.
Getting away from the politics and back to the practicalities/realities: I've just been doing some design work for a company in the North West with an absolutely huge warehousing/logistics facility.
If you walk around the site and listen to the languages being spoken, it becomes glaringly obvious that a company like this simply couldn't function as it does at present without large-scale immigration
Binners - are you sure there are no unemployed local people who could fill those jobs should the need arise? None at all?
Company I have just left couldn’t function with out Eastern Europeans. 80% of workforce comes from out of country.
How long will this pledge remain in effect for?
Can't answer for others but for me it would two parts....
1) Vote Labour for leave
2) Judge them based on performance after (by which I mean continued pragmatism)
Tricky thing Facebook polls. Even when you only post it to your own followers there is a danger that the general public may get involved and spoil your point:
😂😂😂😂😂😂
Caveat: before someone else says it: yes obviously this is likely to be more about upsetting Nigel/UKIPpers than a true reflection of public sentiment.
Still funny though.
Binners – are you sure there are no unemployed local people who could fill those jobs should the need arise? None at all?
Probably. Whether you'd want to employ them, or could actually, with the best will in the world, define them as employable is another matter entirely
Binners – are you sure there are no unemployed local people who could fill those jobs should the need arise? None at all?
Well surely we can grab some unemployed from around the UK and threaten to cut their benefits unless they take these jobs in the NW.... but then why hasn't that already happened before all this Brexit?
The wider question though is why are these diverse migrants taking the jobs?
The local unemployed will say their reasons* ... but why are these jobs more attractive in the NW than say the Rhone Valley to these diverse 'migrants' than the local unemployed population who don't need to move countries?
*These might be quite diverse, including it's only temporary, it's not worth disrupting benefits ... it doesn't pay enough... but the point is there are people who WANT the jobs enough to turn up and apply.
Can’t answer for others but for me it would two parts….
Which is sensible but also means its completely useless for Labour. So a temporary vote at the risk of losing permanently other votes.
but the point is there are people who WANT the jobs enough to turn up and apply.
It is rather easier to do a really physically demanding job for pretty low pay if you know its going to be short(ish) term. Put up with it for 2-3 years doing a ton of overtime and not doing much beside work and sleep. Means outgoings are fairly low and so you end up with a decent amount of cash. Although by decent I mean a handy sum if you are going to go back somewhere with sensible house prices and cost of living.
It is rather easier to do a really physically demanding job for pretty low pay if you know its going to be short(ish) term. Put up with it for 2-3 years doing a ton of overtime and not doing much beside work and sleep. Means outgoings are fairly low and so you end up with a decent amount of cash. Although by decent I mean a handy sum if you are going to go back somewhere with sensible house prices and cost of living.
I agree but then that's why the present people are doing it.
The Northwest though is hardly somewhere without sensible house prices... but for the sake of illustration lets say this construction is new houses.... then the price of those houses to build will be linked to the labour cost...
Either way though you get to the point where building an affordable new house means employing people at a rate that may mean they can't afford the house.
It's simpler with say use Taxi drivers... but implicitly the taxi driver needs to make enough money to live and pay tax and a share to some controller. On the basis of this a taxi driver shouldn't be able to afford to make taking a taxi alone a regular thing.
Which is sensible but also means its completely useless for Labour. So a temporary vote at the risk of losing permanently other votes.
This is possible... it seems the Lib-Dems paid the price for pragmatism... and don't get any or much credit for the excesses they managed to prevent.
However ... I'm not really sure how that works for the Labour members/voters.... Where are they going to go that has any socialism at all? It's also about communication ... (surely) ... in communicating this the best realistic outcome (that doesn't involve unicorns of any colour)...
Also I’m a bit frustrated at the constant threats from big businesses about leave. That does grate me.
Hang on. Leaving is likely to **** up businesses. So the people who have to try and run them are telling you why they are having problems and what they need the government to do. And you are complaining about this because it's annoying?
FFS listen you yourself. You can't ask people to keep silent on serious issues just to make you feel better.
Yeah but big business bro, they're all evil psychopathic overlords and the world would totally be better off being run on ideological grounds not corporate greed brah.
I work for a big business. It makes stuff, useful stuff.
Something something.....Poe's law :p
it's not corporate greed that caused the biggest war and genocide in history. Big business has a civilising effect because it wants to sell to everyone, no matter their colour, creed etc.
These might be quite diverse, including it’s only temporary, it’s not worth disrupting benefits … it doesn’t pay enough… but the point is there are people who WANT the jobs enough to turn up and apply.
All of those things, it is simply not worth the risk of doing a short term job for no more money and the subsequent delay in claiming benefits when the work ends. You need to live in the benefit system and then come back and tell us about it.
Of course people from other countries turn up and do the work because the work is paid relatively well. If I could go and work in Poland and get paid 5 times more than I get in the UK I would be there now...
Our journey to a deregulated, low skill, low wage sweatshop economy with its capital city as the Worlds biggest tax haven and money laundering centre are well underway.
Precisely. Why else would the Tories be pushing it?
Hang on. Leaving is likely to **** up businesses. So the people who have to try and run them are telling you why they are having problems and what they need the government to do. And you are complaining about this because it’s annoying?
FFS listen you yourself. You can’t ask people to keep silent on serious issues just to make you feel better.
Okay take a chill. Sounds hysterical.
Every time there is political upheaval some business or other is going to complain about something aren't they? (I was specifically talking about the 'threats' they make to the government - such as Airbus)
You could argue that businesses that need the benefit of the EU are those that are interested in the cheapest labour and most neo-liberal conditions to suit their own profits.
And I'm sorry again which businesses should I listen to?
And for the record I run a business. A small one, and have been troubled by austerity way more than the EU so put your vitriol somewhere else.
Your final statement is misplaced. I'm not asking anyone to keep silent.
Big business has a civilising effect because it wants to sell to everyone, no matter their colour, creed etc.
It's not the selling that's issue its the drive for profit above everything.
it’s not corporate greed that caused the biggest war and genocide in history
What was the purpose of slavery? What is the purpose of sweat shops?
You could argue that businesses that need the benefit of the EU are those that are interested in the cheapest labour and most neo-liberal conditions to suit their own profits.
You could argue it, but youd be talking bollocks
harmonisation of rules & regulations & frictionless trade is where biggest hit from brexit would come (according to DDs own imapct assesments)
Our research lab would be screwed with a no deal Brexit, we rely on next day delivery for countless products that require all kinds of (currently EU) certification from chemicals, gm organuisms, radioisotopes etc
Theres already a huge headache for clinical trials as UK have been shut out of new projects until we know what data protection rules we will be following.
Plenty more effected by the madness of Brexit than just 'Big Business'
But its also worth noting that Airbus in particular have factories all over the world & they rely on frictionless movement of goods (& people) between UK & EU to make sure that manufacturing here is profitable, they employ15,000 people here, with 100,000 in the supply chain & pay 1.5bn in tax.
Infact my FIL worked for them for years & spent a lot of time between UK & tolouse, as well as their factories in Malaysia etc, he said the day after the vote that he thought they would leave & teh way the government have bungled things & are still chasing ****ing unicorns ( both warring parts of the Tory party are pushing for plans that wont continue frictionless movement) , Im amazed they havent gone already.
it’s not corporate greed that caused the biggest war and genocide in history
It was arguably nationalism that did that. Blue passports and taking back control anyone?
EU has been a generally civilising influence in terms of working conditions. Notwithstanding that UK conditions exceed the EU minimum in some areas. One specific example being the directive 1999/70/EC on short-term contracts
https://eur-lex.europa.eu/LexUriServ/LexUriServ.do?uri=CELEX:31999L0070:EN:HTML
Which I happen to be a fan of as it directly resulted in improvements to not only my own contract but many others in similar situations.
harmonisation of rules & regulations & frictionless trade is where biggest hit from brexit would come (according to DDs own imapct assesments)
I can't argue with your knowledge here can I? It's what you do.
Clearly some business will get by, some will fold and some may thrive.
I've been screwed many times in business, but I have to keep going irrespective of what the political outlook is.
I’ve been screwed many times in business, but I have to keep going irrespective of what the political outlook is.
Maybe some people not so keen to meekly accept being **** over for no good reason?
But its also worth noting that Airbus in particular have factories all over the world & they rely on frictionless movement of goods (& people) between UK & EU to make sure that manufacturing here is profitable, they employ15,000 people here, with 100,000 in the supply chain & pay 1.5bn in tax.
But how is it helpful they threaten to leave the UK?
The aerospace industry is pretty nasty pile-on of ripping up contracts and strong-arming of local suppliers. I've got a bit of first hand experience of this.
It's hard for me to empathise with them that is all.
Maybe some people not so keen to meekly accept being fuct over for no good reason?
But we're getting screwed over in plenty of other areas, and yet you don't hear the same hysterics. Tory austerity is needlessly dismantling the very fabric of our society. Going to be very difficult to reverse.
I would say a much greater impact that the second guessing of what will happen when/if we leave the E.U.
I'm all for people fighting for a better life. We're just not all on the same page currently as it's such mess of conflicting outcomes.
Of course people from other countries turn up and do the work because the work is paid relatively well. If I could go and work in Poland and get paid 5 times more than I get in the UK I would be there now…
In what way do you think construction work pays 5x more in the UK than Poland?? (or most professions)
Or do you think Tesco is significantly cheaper in Poland than the UK?
All of those things, it is simply not worth the risk of doing a short term job for no more money and the subsequent delay in claiming benefits when the work ends. You need to live in the benefit system and then come back and tell us about it.
I suppose you think I just randomly mentioned the short term risks ...?
The UK benefit's system is or has evolved for long term claimants...taking a temporary job is a huge risk to maintaining benefits and continuity but the question was if there were unemployed people who COULD do that job... and as I mentioned their reasons WHY they aren't...(this being one of them).
However ... non of that has got anything to do with the EU...
Housing is cheaper in Poland but not because of any other reason than the UK's OWN hurdles... in Poland you can buy a plot of land and build a house..
or again why did these 'furrin sounding' construction workers choose the UK not Germany???
my question is really is Corbyn a zealot to his brand of socialism above the welfare of the people.
No
Then if that’s the case that is what is confusing….
of course his brand of socialism is more important than what you think is the welfare of the people as he believes that the EU has not been good for the welfare of most people and the EU will restrict what he can do to bring in his form of socialism which will benefit most people in his view - which is the same as McDonald.
He keeps his head down and he, and John McD, make ambiguous statements that don't provide the commitment that the headlines suggest because they do not want to commit us to staying in the EU, dispite what that Stammer guy said. but they want to ride the hysteria that such headlines bring. Like that there will be a referendum, with the proviso that remain is not an option getting much less publicity.
To me the right answer is to take a Norway style agreement - we do not want to be part of every-close-political union and we do not want the Euro and there are other ways that EU migration can be controlled more, witness other countries.
Then there needs to be a lot more investment in the north and midlands to equalise out the propsperity of the country.
The best thing to have come out of this so far is the statement about EU immigrants not having more rights than immigrants from any other country, which I find it hard to argue against, unless you are some form of rascist.
But we’re getting screwed over in plenty of other areas, and yet you don’t hear the same hysterics. Tory austerity is needlessly dismantling the very fabric of our society. Going to be very difficult to reverse.
Plenty have people have been screaming about the insanity of austerity, Brexit just means more austerity ! government has already wasted £2bn on Brexit prep, Raab admitted no deal means an extra £3.7bn in prep costs
Much of the objection to Brexit is that it makes the country poorer & means more austerity
The best thing to have come out of this so far is the statement about EU immigrants not having more rights than immigrants from any other country, which I find it hard to argue against, unless you are some form of rascist.
It doesnt have to be a race to the bottom, you know !
Plenty have people have been screaming about the insanity of austerity, Brexit just means more austerity !
Where is the 1280 page austerity thread?
Much of the objection to Brexit is that it makes the country poorer & means more austerity
As much as I want to agree - we don't actually know that for sure do we?
EU migrants getting into the UK is part of the wider deal of being in the EU. Four freedoms. End of story .
And also it is a lot easier to get people from a few hundred miles away to work a few weeks on a farm or factory, rather than flying them across the globe. It is common sense.
In a rational world it would be helpful for people to understand the consequences of their action.
Housing is cheaper in Poland but not because of any other reason than the UK’s OWN hurdles… in Poland you can buy a plot of land and build a house..
or again why did these ‘furrin sounding’ construction workers choose the UK not Germany???
One part of the reason that many Poles came to the UK was that historically there's been closer connections between us than those between Poland and Germany.
I remember the massive outflux of Brits to go and work in architecture and construction in Germany after reunification in the period 90-93.
Big business has a civilising effect because it wants to sell to everyone, no matter their colour, creed etc.
Depends on the industry really doesnt it? A cursory look at the history of corporations indicates they have much the same flaws as states. Difference being is very few people are so ideologically blinkered about states.
or again why did these ‘furrin sounding’ construction workers choose the UK not Germany???
Quite a few did go to Germany. However several factors come into play.
Firstly historical ties between the UK and certain Eastern European countries.
Secondly language. English is more often a secondary language than others.
Thirdly at the time the Eastern European countries joined the EU it was the UK which was booming and so was most attractive. This was compounded by the fact that the UK government chose not to impose any restrictions, which it was entitled to do, unlike Germany. So had the large initial influx which in turn helped create communities for future immigrants to access.
As much as I want to agree – we don’t actually know that for sure do we?
already taken £bns out of economy & cost each household >£900
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/may/22/brexit-vote-cost-uk-mark-carney-bank-of-england
government has had to hire nearly 30k extra civil servants since the vote, bill is already >£1bn
of course his brand of socialism is more important than what you think is the welfare of the people as he believes that the EU has not been good for the welfare of most people and the EU will restrict what he can do to bring in his form of socialism which will benefit most people in his view – which is the same as McDonald.
Fair enough ... though I'm rather unsure of what he means by his brand of socialism and how that is either:
Not like Sweden or Denmark... which obviously can exist in the EU
Not like Cuba
What benefits most of the people ... depending who those people are ... is also something the EU hasn't provided... but by provided I mean forced down our throats... at least from my perspective what we have spectacularly failed to do is actually take advantage of being members.
Then there needs to be a lot more investment in the north and midlands to equalise out the propsperity of the country.
I'm not entirely sure its so simple. (and we should probably include the SW but)
COL: Of course housing is cheaper but ... food and such isn't... of course it used to be but that was before we had national supermarkets and online shopping. TBH you can see the deprivation more clearly in the North and Midlands but that's largely because the SE has a layer of makeup ...
but of course we (the UK) have left regional development very much up to EU finding...
Quite a few did go to Germany. However several factors come into play.
Secondly language. English is more often a secondary language than others.
So German and dialects are the 2nd language of many parts of Poland.(nothing to do with WWII).. obviously less in the younger generations but certainly more so when Poland joined the EU... however other than music and popular TV the reason for this is because it became the lingua franca (pun) of the EU. Almost all older people speak Russian ... it's only relatively recently that English became common.
Thirdly at the time the Eastern European countries joined the EU it was the UK which was booming and so was most attractive. This was compounded by the fact that the UK government chose not to impose any restrictions, which it was entitled to do, unlike Germany. So had the large initial influx which in turn helped create communities for future immigrants to access.
The LATTER is IMHO FAR more important. We (UK) simply waived our rights...and this goes beyond way creating communities because it created a pattern and indeed was the other reason for the language.
Talking of salaries... English teachers can get far better pay in the thousands of Polish private English schools than they can here. This simple waving of our rights set up what is now a HUGE business in Poland...
There are actually loads of Polish construction workers in Germany, they came here in similar numbers as they did to the UK. In Germany though there are laws about qualifications, and certain work can only be carried out by a master builder, so a qualified Polish builder has to show his qualifications are up to the same standard, or he can only work under the supervision of a qualified master builder.
Looks like Mays big speech in New York is to announce that ,post-Brexit, the UK will be lowering its corporation tax rate to the lowest of all developed economies
Wow..... who could have possibly seen that one coming?!
The aerospace industry is pretty nasty pile-on of ripping up contracts and strong-arming of local suppliers. I’ve got a bit of first hand experience of this.
It’s hard for me to empathise with them that is all.
You don't have to empathise with the CEOs and corporate decision makers. However you should empathise with the normal people who do the work.
Re effects of regulation: I'm a consultant with a pretty niche skillset even within the company. I get called out at short notice to clients. Currently, if it's an EU client, I can just go. But based on recent experience going to Switzerland, there was a wait of several weeks and that was the fast option with heavy restrictions on what I could do. Any decent sized project would have taken ages to sort out.
Now, for Switzerland everyone faces the same issue, so it's shit but whatever. However for us UK consultants we are more likely to lose out to other consultants within the EU because they can still jump on a plane and travel whenever they want.
Less work for us based in the UK means that genuine redundancy is more likely.
which I find it hard to argue against, unless you are some form of rascist
reciprocity
That is, countries that allow workers, services, goods, whatever, to travel both ways for the benefit of both sides.
For example; one of the reasons why it is currently harder to come here to work from Canada or Australia or Japan, than it is from Germany, is because the Germans make it easier for Brits to go and work there. Close down these special arrangements and it's likely to just add friction for everyone, especially for Brits, rather than necessarily freeing up movement from countries we currently treat too strictly.
Now, for Switzerland everyone faces the same issue, so it’s shit but whatever. However for us UK consultants we are more likely to lose out to other consultants within the EU because they can still jump on a plane and travel whenever they want.
Less work for us based in the UK means that genuine redundancy is more likely
Yep, tell me about it... although I don't think you really went into the level of detail so that anyone doesn't do this understand the levels of crap.... restrictions on what you can and can't do .. who reimburses you ...
It's not just the time... though of course that is a factor but an EU consultant is able to do work that we are not allowed to do or require a permit .... and I don't now about Switzerland but in many countries it's simply impossible in any realistic timeframe. (Months best case with sponsorship from the client) .. worse case is spending months and then getting it turned down... Obviously the client's will know the risk... so even if we are miraculously cheaper and better qualified we come with the risk of spending months and still not being able to do the work.
This of course is simply one example of how we will be disadvantaged... the same will apply to goods exports.
We might have a specialist product required but if that product is required quickly and requires certification then it's a risk... again the UK loses the contract.
although I don’t think you really went into the level of detail
No you're right, we have an agency for this stuff. But it still required a lengthy argument with the agency about what exactly I wanted to do and was allowed to do. None of the categories made sense and it was a massive ballache. And it cost us £1500.
Less red tape my arse.
No you’re right, we have an agency for this stuff. But it still required a lengthy argument with the agency about what exactly I wanted to do and was allowed to do. None of the categories made sense and it was a massive ballache. And it cost us £1500.
Yep... and that is a specialist agency! (We use one as well but we pre-fill the requirements)
Presently I can tick the I am an EU citizen box that not only saves the company a grand or more but saves me playing answer 20 questions about if directors of the sponsoring company have XYZ .. if the parent company of the sponsoring company are involved in any special sectors... etc. etc. and of course every bloody country is different. Will you be paid by an in country entity or not... how many days will you be in the country... or perhaps how many work days..(does staying over the weekend count or not). not to mention TAX....
I can quite honestly say there are several countries where the work required to go and do a day's consulting far exceeds the day actually working vs ticking the I am an EU citizen box!
Looks like Mays big speech in New York is to announce that ,post-Brexit, the UK will be lowering its corporation tax rate to the lowest of all developed economies
Stellar idea, let's make more money by... collecting less of it. FFS.
Wow….. who could have possibly seen that one coming?!
Quite. Just as new EU tax legislation is about to land. We said two years ago that the entire thing was likely to be a tax dodge.
Bit of a shame just as we are looking into moving our company to Estonia in order to stay within the EU. No point having a low tax rate if there's no money to be taxed.
<div class="bbp-reply-author">stevextc
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This is possible… it seems the Lib-Dems paid the price for pragmatism… and don’t get any or much credit for the excesses they managed to prevent.
They do get credit for that, they just also get the blame for all of the excesses they enabled, and rightly so. You don't get points for putting the nutters in charge then stopping them doing a few of the nutter things they want to do.
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They do get credit for that, they just also get the blame for all of the excesses they enabled, and rightly so. You don’t get points for putting the nutters in charge then stopping them doing a few of the nutter things they want to do.
And that makes then incapable of learning from their mistakes....
It's double standards plain and simple by a lot of people who will tick the red or blue box out of habbit because of that one time they tried yellow and it wasn't all they had hoped for, back to red or blue you know what kind of screwed you get when you tick there.
Anyway, we do have a tame brexiter in out office, young and of the mindset that we can't judge them on their plans, it's only right we let it happen and then we can decide if we like it. Though he also thinks tax is theft....
Tick Tock, who's going to have the balls to do something
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or again why did these ‘furrin sounding’ construction workers choose the UK not Germany???
As someone mentioned up the page, roughly as many polish construction workers chose Germany as the UK. The higher number of Polish immigrants to the UK (550000 vs 425000 vs 350000 to France and 100000-ish to Eire, the Netherlands and Italy) isn't down to construction workers but financial services
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Which, observant people will notice, means that per capita Eire received more than twice as many Polish immigrants as the UK did. So why are we so obsessed with it?
So why are we so obsessed with it?
Is it because people are ignorant and/or racist. Coming over here, taking our jobs using our benefits, using our hospitals. Whereas the intelligent among us know that they are net contributors who are doing jobs that need doing, paying tax, etc,. yet not using our schools as they did that in their country and not using our health system as they are not old and are here to work and get money.
It is pretty easy to explain the benefits of immigration to the country but nobody is trying that hard to do it.