I assume you think that the Guardian is demented then, for posting this opinion piece?
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/jul/07/labour-antisemitism-jeremy-corbyn
they will happily impose their own vision of brexit on the country without so much as a second glance.
Or they'll implement whatever version of brexit they propose in their election manifesto, which people have just voted for and put them in government to do. So why the need for another vote in that case?
I assume you think that the Guardian is demented then, for posting this opinion piece?
Yawn. Give it up. The anti-semitism rubbish didn't work, it's old news.
Yawn. Give it up. The anti-semitism rubbish didn’t work, it’s fake news.
You sound remarkably like ninfan or a Trump supporter there.
dazh, the reason for another vote is that they will only (in your wildly optimistic dreams) have obtained close to 45% of the vote and will only achieve a proportion of what they promise in the manifesto and their brexit deal will only be supported by a minority of the electorate.
Other than blatant hypocrisy, what is the rationale for demanding a ref on the tory plan and not allowing one on their own plan?
I assume you think that the Guardian is demented then, for posting this opinion piece?
Thats the Observer not the Guardian. Also you do realise the Guardian is not really a fan of Corbyn dont you and with the more rabid "moderates" can take on the daily mail for frothing hatred about him.
has anyone managed to come up with a single coherent and convincing reason why Brexit is a good idea?
Lots of money to be made from a chaotic economy and you can push through policies that normally would get rejected.
Admittedly it does help if you are living elsewhere though and just using the UK as a profit centre.
Internationalist? Hah! I think he has toyed with being an internationalist. That involves getting along in a world where some people, countries or cultures are not socialist though. We can’t have that can we? Hence the EU wasn’t socialist enough for him.
Whilst there is a principled left wing argument for brexit, Corbyn took the pragmatic approach and voted Remain.
Good things about Brexit- no more MEPs . Especially UKIP ****ers claiming wages for **** all.
Or they’ll implement whatever version of brexit they propose in their election manifesto
Politicians following through on election manifesto. Hahahahhahahahahahaha
Whilst there is a principled left wing argument for brexit, Corbyn took the pragmatic approach and voted Remain.
Because he didn't want to lose the young left vote to the Greens. Like racism, he only pretends to care about it if there are votes in it for him and then he drops any pretensions, once he feels he was won or no longer feels the need for a certain demographic.
He's a cynical charlatan.
cynical charlatan
Career politician
LOLZ
I assume you think that the Guardian is demented then, for posting this opinion piece?
No, but the author of it appears to be.
Especially UKIP * claiming wages for * all.
Still a nice pension for those career politicians such as Farage.
Career politician
Except the true believers will have you think he's a more huggable, less killy, Che Guevara reincarnated.
Whether Labour are pro Brexit or not, Corbyn should have attacked the government a lot more on their handling of the whole situation.
He has been way too passive and not interested.
To be fair we hear as much from him and Labour in general as we did before the last election. It was only when the press had to report what they were saying that he actually got a balanced amount of reporting.
boom
“Nobody,” said Starmer, “is ruling out remain as an option.” The response in the hall to that was immediate. First an instant volley of applause, but then, from deeper in the hall, and somehow also from somewhere deeper in the gut of the party conference, came the cheering, prolonged and surging, and then the standing ovation.
It was a powerful moment. As someone who has been reporting party conferences for a very long time, I can’t remember all that many like it in any party. It’s rare for a politician, even addressing their supporters, to hit the spot with something truly unexpected and powerful. But Starmer’s embrace of the possibility of remaining in the EU hit that spot unerringly. It was, it seems, an improvised addition to the speech. The words weren’t in the planned text. But the words mattered – and so did the response in the hall. Most were on the feet. The applause went on and on. This was, it suddenly felt, a Labour party that really is up for a fight to preserve Britain’s place in Europe.
https://twitter.com/SkyNews/status/1044532768389177344
excellent!
Or they’ll implement whatever version of brexit they propose in their election manifesto, which people have just voted for and put them in government to do. So why the need for another vote in that case?
you're channeling THM with that.
brexit is not aligned along party lines, labour are pretty much the only game in town as far as a realistic chance of achieving a halt to this nonsense goes.
Because he didn’t want to lose the young left vote to the Greens. Like racism, he only pretends to care about it if there are votes in it for him and then he drops any pretensions, once he feels he was won or no longer feels the need for a certain demographic.
Most on the left realise that while the EU is very far from perfect, there is no realistic prospect of advancing left of centre politics through Brexit. In fact, the opposite will happen.
As for Corbyn, whether you support him or not, he was leading protests against racists before he was even an MP. To suggest that he doesn't care deeply about it is to disregard a lifetime of evidence, in favour of unsupported beliefs.
boom
Is the first guy in the audience there Sam the Eagle from the Muppets?
Like racism, he only pretends to care about it if there are votes in it for him and then he drops any pretensions, once he feels he was won or no longer feels the need for a certain demographic.
He's anti-establishment, his prior life as an "anti-racist" was more about taking an anti-establishment position than any real care for racism. His views on anti-Semitism and his constant pandering to illiberal, deeply racist Arab dictators is part of that. I wouldn't be surprised at all if I found out he thought Jews were part of some controlling establishment. He neatly compartmentalizes his views, no matter how contradictory, to fit his own "**** everyone in power" ideology.
Don't we have another million-post thread discussing whether Corbyn is evil or not?
His views on anti-Semitism and his constant pandering to illiberal, deeply racist Arab dictators is part of that.
Or the other side of the issue, glad you have your views nailed on there, others are available
The trouble with that Starmer speech is he says "if they can't force a general election this winter" then they will start looking at other options including a second referendum. Well then it will be too ****ing late! Is he going to leave it until April 1st to announce they are now backing another vote?
I really hope the conference grabs hold of this and forces them to start opposing this now.
The scenario he seems to be thinking about is that when the "meaningful vote" rejects the tory offering, the govt falls leading to an election, but if it doesn't, labour will argue for a referendum at that point.
Of course what actually happens in reality is a postponement/withdrawal of A50 and the whole sorry mess gets kicked into the long grass. Perhaps we could have a Royal Commission into how to leave the EU. That should put things back a decade or two by which time enough of the gammons will have died off that no-one will want to start it all over again.
Johnson’s next Telegraph column will be an introspective one where he comes out in favour of a People’s Vote with an option to remain.
He’s anti-establishment, his prior life as an “anti-racist” was more about taking an anti-establishment position than any real care for racism. I wouldn’t be surprised at all if I found out he thought Jews were part of some controlling establishment.
Ah, so us all being ruled by Jews is an establishment position, is it? I think your posts say far more about you than they do about Corbyn.
Ah, so us all being ruled by Jews is an establishment position, is it? I think your posts say far more about you than they do about Corbyn.
How do you get there from
I wouldn’t be surprised at all if I found out he thought Jews were part of some controlling establishment.
The good thing about Corbyn is he's an idealist.... but The bad thing about Corbyn is he's an idealist....
To take the Palestinian/Israeli problem.... one thing that will never provide a solution to this is idealism... any more than we would ever have got a peace in NI without a pragmatic "You are both sides eediots" ... Idealistically you can go back to Solomon.... threaten to nuke the whole area.. but sadly both sides would probably prefer that than compromise.
I wouldn’t be surprised at all if I found out he thought Jews were part of some controlling establishment.
You, sir, are a nutjob. And a rubbish judge of character.
Idealistically you can go back to Solomon…. threaten to nuke the whole area.. but sadly both sides would probably prefer that than compromise.
When I worked in Israel their attitude was if we can’t be here then on the way out we will nuke every major Islamic city...
Well this has gone off-piste hasn't it. Tin-hat conspiracy theories aside, what amuses me is that there seems to be some confusion as to whether Corbyn is an idealistic hard brexit zealot, or a power hungry cynic who'll do anything to win an election. Clearly his tactic of keeping everyone guessing is working a treat 🙂
May be working for some but having already lost one election he's still some way back in the polls against the most inept and paralysed govt I can recall.
So, um, I guess that means his tactic isn't really working very well at all.
Or actually it's just that people see what they want to see when it comes to Corbyn. Or they believe the Daily Mail.
May be working for some but having already lost one election he’s still some way back in the polls against the most inept and paralysed govt I can recall.
So, um, I guess that means his tactic isn’t really working very well at all.
Labour was some way back when the last election was called, yet ended up gaining 30 seats, despite most of the UKIP vote going to the Tories. Current opinion polls are a dead heat.
Or actually it’s just that people see what they want to see when it comes to Corbyn. Or they believe the Daily Mail.
I really want to see an electable opposition and I certainly can't see that. I don't and won't read the Mail either. Is there a third option?
I really want to see an electable opposition and I certainly can’t see that.
That's not quite what he meant...
Is there a third option?
Revolution comrade. That way we get a socialist utopia or a socialist dystopia. No guarantee which way it would pan out though.
40 years pretending to be anti racist - that is good going. Look back over the debates and votes over those 40 years and you will find Corbyn on the right side (proven by history). Why anyone would think that was all fake is a strange position.
40 years pretending to be anti racist – that is good going.
Par for the course for a Soviet sleeper agent.
Do I think Corbyn is a racist or an antisemite?
No
Do I think he’s an utterly and completely dithering incompetent who is patently about a million miles out of his depth, and who’s ‘leadership’ has been, and remains to be, on ongoing disaster for anyone who thinks an effective electable opposition might have been quite handy over the last few years....?
40 years pretending to be anti racist – that is good going.
Whereas some on the other side can hardly manage 40 minutes
This is interesting though. Corbyn has to be fair said he is bound to the party wishes and another steps out .
"Emily Thornberry acknowledged that – should Labour succeed in forcing an election – the clock would have to be stopped on Brexit"
'We cannot obviously leave in current circumstances, we need to extend Article 50....I don’t know how long that would take'
That ^^ was awesome. 😂
Here’s the direct twitter link:
https://twitter.com/jim_cornelius/status/1044336426127695874?s=21
Jim Cornelius is one of the best guys around.
There's a saying round our way that "You can't educate pork",apparently that's true for gammon,too.
Brexiters be like
Meanwhile Mrs May fiddles while Brexit burns...
Get back on track people!
Nothing from corby yet but with two of his big hitters advocating elections, referendums and A50 extensions it looks like there's a shifting of positions from the reds.. Corbyn has actually said he'll follow the party will ..
Maybe this is paving the way for a winnable snap election and freezing/revocation of A50..
The EU have said they would put things in hold in such events.
Meanwhile May is still painted into a corner.
I don't think another referendum would be helpful, far safer and more tactful to halt proceedings (quite rightfully citing the chaos and damage) and quietly, slowly, step back from the edge off the cliff as the swivel eyed leavers either wake up or get bored or die.
But the point is that the Labour Party position is still what exactly? Just sounds like more cake and eat it delusional nonsense to me. It’s no more credible than this bunch. In ‘a’ customs union, but not ‘the’ customs union? Tariff free access to the single market, but not part of the single market? Restrictions on freedom of movement? The EU are going to be no more receptive to that than the chequers deal
If you’re still trailing these bumbling, incompetent, squabbling morons in the polls it’s because you’re not offering a credible alternative.
If you think a second referendum is going to offer a way out then I think you need to spend a bit of time talking to the village idiot who voted for it in the first place. Despite all the evidence they still JUST WANT TO GET ON WITH IT!!!
And I seriously doubt that when push came to shove that a Corbyn government would even allow a second vote. That should be glaringly obvious now matter what Kier wishes for and tries to bounce them into
But the point is that the Labour Party position is still what exactly? Just sounds like more cake and eat it delusional nonsense to me. It’s no more credible than this bunch. In ‘a’ customs union, but not ‘the’ customs union? Tariff free access to the single market, but not part of the single market? Restrictions on freedom of movement? The EU are going to be no more receptive to that than the chequers deal
Red unicorns comrade.
As I said above, but the timings of our posts probably clashed...
I don’t think another referendum would be helpful, far safer and more tactful to halt proceedings (quite rightfully citing the chaos and damage) and quietly, slowly, step back from the edge off the cliff as the swivel eyed leavers either wake up or get bored or die.
Isn't this in some ways just the result that May wanted? She was a remainer and may have played a blinder in delivering it simply by drawing attention to the fact that it's going to be virtually impossible to deliver by making such a hash of it when all the Brexiteers stand behind her telling her how easy it's all going to be.
One can but hope anyway.
lol
Whatever proposed fudge Corbyn finally gets railroaded into this week, it’s 2, probably 3 years too late.
The fat lady is warming up her vocal chords, and Corbyn has spent all that time being completely AWOL, totally ineffectual, or more damningly, a fascilitator for the Tory hard right
As idiots go, has one ever been more useful?
To say this is too little too late doesn’t even begin to describe the total dereliction of duty by HM Opposition, just when they we’re never needed more
Whatever proposed fudge Corbyn finally gets railroaded into this week, it’s 2, probably 3 years too late.
2 years ago there were a lot more people who thought the fantasy world was reality, it's taken this long to get people round to the idea it's a complete shitstorm
To say this is too little too late doesn’t even begin to describe the total derikiction of duty by HM Opposition, just when they we’re never needed more
We are now at the business end of things, it might just work to give people the way out right at the end.
Well we know the tories are running scared of losing a grip on power, and have been for years.
A) Cameron calling the ref due fear of losing ground to UKIP
B) May buying the DUP in the last GE.
Will we have a C) May freezing A50, getting in before Corbyn to prevent a labour government??
As idiots go, has one ever been more useful?
Yeah. I would say all the labour "moderates" who when faced with someone even vaguely left wing had a ideological breakdown and dedicated themselves to trying to destroy him and handing ammo to the rabid right. Actually even worse are those who cant even be arsed joining the labour party to try and save it from those lefties.
So no one has actually been able to say what labour should have dne. Lots of criticism of how they have handled it some deserved but no one person on here with all their criticism of Corbyn and labour has been able to say what steps they should have taken
Personally I believe it a poisoned chalice for them and I really do not see what else they could have done
Binners - what should they have done?
So no one has actually been able to say what labour should have dne.
Define their political position and state state what benefits this position has.
this used to be normal for a political party but recently the rules seem to have changed🙁
i don’t need to agree with anyones position but if you are proposing a GE before Christmas everything should be easy enough to publish, review and defend..
i don’t need to agree with anyones position but if you are proposing a GE before Christmas everything should be easy enough to publish, review and defend..
Strategically, keeping all doors open and then setting the tory unity machine on itself would be a better strategy, you don't know who you would face in a winter GE at this point. Best to know where the battle is before letting the plans slip.
Prime Minister Theresa May has said it would "not be in the national interest" for a general election to take place before the UK leaves the European Union in March 2019.
and honestly she is somebody who knows a thing or two about badly timed elections....
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-45647061
If you think a second referendum is going to offer a way out then I think you need to spend a bit of time talking to the village idiot who voted for it in the first place. Despite all the evidence they still JUST WANT TO GET ON WITH IT!!!
This is what scares me about the entire concept. Plus, y'know, propaganda and corruption.
This is what scares me about the entire concept. Plus, y’know, propaganda and corruption.
At this stage, we have a situation where at the last time of asking
Turnout - Leave was a shoe in, so it was less important to turn out to vote for the winning side
Kick in the balls - an unpopular government proposes something and given it was a shoe in plenty voted to give them a bloody nose - this thread had a few
Lies and Promises - apart from the true delusional fanatics the penny has dropped that the EU is not scared, they do not need us more and the deals/streets paved with gold etc isn't going to happen.
A solid turnout and it should be OK, a very critical approach where leave is pushed on exactly what they want should make them look so bad it's nothing more than a sympathy vote
Here's a bit of a tangential thought.
We are where we are with Brexit in large part due to the fallout from the financial crash of 2008. At the time I seem to recall a bit of a debate about whether it was all the banker's fault for lending money to people who had no hope of paying it back, or whether individuals should accept responsibility for their own financial decisions. I also seem to recall that the concensus was that you can't expect the average person to be able to make a sensible decision regading the affordability of cheap credit as it was all so impossibly difficult: so it was all the banker's fault.
Remind me why the will of the people is so important?
A second ref is absolutely a bad idea.
Now people are openly talking in political circles about what a car crash brexit is, the chalice is slightly less poisonous, and it's being diluted further as days go by.
I think now it's a question of who blinks first between the Conservatives and Labour and beats the other party to a freeze of A50.
That's the only way forward, I really can't see a no deal getting through parliament, so that means a massive tory U turn or risk Labour going for a power grab.
It's all insidious and dishonest political maneuvering, but it seems the tide is now turning.
Another referendum is absolutely a bad idea.
It may be the only way out of our hole though.
Why would the rEU agree to delay our leaving date otherwise?
Why would the rEU agree to delay our leaving date otherwise?
They have stated that they in the event of a (I'm paraphrasing) 'constitutional crisis' such as this that they would put things on hold.
It suits them to do so. They get damaged by brexit too, not as catastrophically as the UK would get damaged but they aren't as collectively stupid as the UK..
If you think a second referendum is going to offer a way out then I think you need to spend a bit of time talking to the village idiot who voted for it in the first place. Despite all the evidence they still JUST WANT TO GET ON WITH IT!!!
Right, but they can't complain if it's done by public vote, can they? Well, they can, but not as much as if A50 is revoked (or Norway is accepted) against the result of the first ref.
We voted for Chequers, now Let's Just Get On With It!
You could always vote lib dem.. Every one seems to have forgotten they exist and are calling for a new 'centrist' party that's already there.
Oh that's right, they will never be forgiven for the compromises that they had to make as a minority in the tory coalition.
Right, but they can’t complain if it’s done by public vote, can they? Well, they can, but not as much as if A50 is revoked (or Norway is accepted) against the result of the first ref.
This.
If we're to have a close relationship with Europe, either as an EU member or not, then, unfortunately, we need another public vote. Or it'll be all about how the people were betrayed, and that narrative will be strong in both main parties, as well as the media.
As much as the blow hards moan about another referendum being "undemocratic", that's nothing compared to what they'd be saying if we were to remain EU members, or form some kind of "not really left" new relationship with the EU from outside it, without another vote.
I'd love to see Brexit slink off into the distance uninstigated, but I suspect it'll take a vote. And surely, sweet baby jesus, if we can get away with it this time, surely no-one will be stupid enough to do it again...?
I’d love to see Brexit slink off into the distance uninstigated, but I suspect it’ll take a vote. And surely, sweet baby jesus, if we can get away with it this time, surely no-one will be stupid enough to do it again…?
Go to the comments section on any political 'article' On t<span style="font-size: 0.8rem;">he express or the mail. Try not to linger though. It's not good for the mind..</span>
As much as the blowhards moan about another referendum being “undemocratic”
It's the precise definition of democratic unless you're scared the vote will go the other way if people now know all (or at least some) of the facts.
I can't think of a single question anyone would ask that was so important that you didn't get an "are you sure? - no seriously, are you really sure?" if you gave such an idiotic answer.
Ok heres my "guestimate" based upon my track record of "guessing"
1. Trump winning
2. Leave vote
3. Labour taking seats at the last GE
I am not a clairvoyant, i simply look at things from other folks perspectives so -
1. Arch Brexiteers will still vote leave as we have called them thick
2. Moderate brexiteers will vote leave as they have been fed anti EU shit by the daily mail JRM etc.
3. We now have some "new" Brexiteers who have been convinced by the Daily Mail JRM etc that the EU is nasty. 1 2 and 3 think Nissan, Jaguar etc are lying about jobs.
4. There will be a significantly bigger turnout by both camps which will cancel each other out
5. Not enough old folks have passed away to change the percentages significantly
6. Not enough young folk have turned 18 to change the percentage significantly
Result - leave will win by a slightly increased margin. A lot of this will be down to "**** you i might be suffering but you will also suffer"
This has become a zero sum game on a national level, said it before (and had comments that i appear to be well padded against Hard Brexit) but there has to be "hard rain" or the blame game will continue.
We have to accept that about half of this country is pissed off, thick, misled, poorly educated, misinformed and disenfranchised - why this is i dont understand compared to Thatchers times this current world is significantly better with shed loads more opportunity for education, business and employment.
The whole country is broken and dysfunctional. The working poor have been completely used and abused by the very people pushing for a hard brexit. 90% of their woes have been created by these people (Tories mainly) and yet they can not see it?
There will be a significantly bigger turnout by both camps
Amongst people who did not vote, remain outnumber leave by 2:1.