[Closed] EU Referendum - are you in or out?

Good thing if it happens.
In France you get a 200 euros grant to buy an electric bike. Even in a small town like mine, I see lots on my morning commute.

Not entirely surprising given France has an even worse pollution problem than does the UK in terms of its major cities and currently being made worse on a daily basis by the Paris mayor.

The problem is diesel vehicles and the tricks the manufacturers have played

@kimbers by the way Macron has said the emails / datafiles are just "normal campaign business" which is exactly what Fillion said about hiring his wife for 10 years like all the other politicians do.

Macron is shrewd which is why one of is friends allegedly leaked the private Fillion information.

Also he definitely has offshore tax efficient investments of that I am 100% certain. Nothing illegal in that.

Enlighten us all Pigface ?

[general_rant]I'm still in shock at the less than thirty per cent turnout on Thursday and the resultant slide to the right - what the actual eff is wrong with this country that we're becoming so short-sighted and inward-looking, so desperate to through ourselves off this clifface of bullshit that is Brexit? I can remember my history saying back in 1987 that we were not far from becoming a third world country - I scoffed back then, but it's the way we're heading. [/general_rant]

EU takes game playing wirh the lives of EU citizens in the UK and UK citizens abroad to a new level of obnoxiousness

So, the EU wants to make sure that the UK doesn't deny EU citizens living here their rights through overly onerous or kafkaesque application procedures… sounds wise, this government, and the PM in particular, has past/current form here.

Have you even read that Indy article or did you just stop at the IDS quote ??

With the UK government putting the Dartford crossing as a rural road so it is not included in air quality report, I am not surprised the pollution issue is bigger in France.
At least we are doing something about it.

EU takes game playing wirh the lives of EU citizens in the UK and UK citizens abroad to a new level of obnoxiousness

Hang on.. Didn't the House of Lords recommend that the EU nationals in the UK were taken out of the equation prior to submitting article 50. I know there are arguments saying that it did not protect UK residents in the EU, but as many people also argue that it should be UK people in the UK that get priority the government could now be holding the high ground and have eliminated a time wasting negotiation that will result in the same outcome albeit for fewer people as many will be disillusioned and have left.

@Pondo, i think some forget how broke the UK was in the '70's and why it was forced to join the EU to survive.

Things go in cycles, take a look at Portugal for an example of a post imperial country to see the future.

EU takes game playing wirh the lives of EU citizens in the UK and UK citizens abroad to a new level of obnoxiousness

What by demanding that citizens have the right to continue living where they live on the terms that applied when they made that choice? Or are you in favour of mass deportations?

[i]have we also talked about the potential for no VAT on bikes and cycling components in order to promote sustainable transport options? [/i]

Interesting Nifan, are you predicting the Tories are going to lose the GE then? 😀

Seems like the proposal put forward would save the UK a lot of time and money. Wasn't it reported that if all the EU immigrants applied for residency it would take something like 60 years to process the applications?
The current application form is something like 84 pages, and with supporting documentation is about 1.2 kg in weight. It also requires the applicant surrender their passport, not a copy, for up to 6 months currently. Hope a family member doesn't get ill, cos if you need that passport back, you start again.
Or you could, you know, just say **** it, and accept any EU citizen who had every right to be here anyway, with like a passport and three months payslips, and save yourself a whole lot of grief and money, never mind the humanist side of things.

jambalaya - Member
EU takes game playing wirh the lives of EU citizens in the UK and UK citizens abroad to a new level of obnoxiousness

Seems that the EU are asking for what you said May had already offered - or has she u-turned again? She wanders so much it is difficult to keep track of her offers, policies etc.

Anyway judging on the article it's IDS that is setting "a new level of obnoxiousness".
No surprise there would you say?

Or you could, you know, just say **** it, and accept any EU citizen who had every right to be here anyway, with like a passport and three months payslips, and save yourself a whole lot of grief and money, never mind the humanist side of things.

This could be applied to UK people in the EU although all the people who have holiday homes who currently get treated the same as a local would fall between the gaps. Also anyone with any aspirations to be able to retire in the sun or work abroad.... but hey no one will be retiring in the future just spending their lives servicing the robots that do the jobs we used to have...

@igm, no they are asking for permanent residency with no proof and for all (?) relatives to be entitled to come too.

I do get the point that the 85 page form with 5 years worth of travel details is a bit much however that's really none of the EU's business and if the EU agreed a suitable "deal" the form would be unnecessary.

As far as I am aware May is not offering Permanent residency, nor indeed should she. If you are here working you can stay whilst you are working, apply for PR or citizenship. If you are retired here and can support yoirself you can stay. If you don't meet those criteria then maybe you cannot stay, you have to apply. These sorts of tests are applied elsewhere in the world.

What by demanding that citizens have the right to continue living where they live on the terms that applied when they made that choice? Or are you in favour of mass deportations?

Things change, so basically no. Well when they came here the ECJ had jurisdiction, from April 2019 imo it should have none. When they came here they could claim benefits after 3 months, imo that should end - as per Germany no benefits until 5 years of work/taxes paid. When they came they had the right to stay forever, imo that should change.

If you are in the uk with a job or retired here or otherwise need no support, eg married the you can stay and apply for PR / citizenship or a long term visa (to be introdiced). That's what's done elsewhere. Thats my view.

So what you're saying is it's not clear what exactly May wants to offer, but the EU have at least put an offer forward.
I'll agree it's not clear and that the current UK system isn't fit for purpose.

However the main thing that we can tell from that article is that IDS is still a professionally outraged idiot.

Married does not mean you require no support. Just because one half of the partnership is earning it does not necessarily follow that they provide enough tax revenue for there not to be a cost to the system for the second person. Judging peoples worth by their salary is a poor technique, as is only allowing the rich to have spouses from outside the UK (because they can afford to pay for it).

Anyone who has lived on a visa with the risk of being deported in the event of a job loss knows that living with that level of insecurity is pretty crap. The country and companies within cannot attract or retain top talent with those restrictions. Even in the USA the way that companies retain top people is to buy them green cards.

@igm yup there are details to be agreed. As an aside the UK has one of the mosf generous refimes to apply for citizenship and we are very flexible about multiple passports / nationalities unlike other countries.

We have to be generous about multiple passports - the UK is made up of immigrants. Always has been.

If you are in the uk with a job or retired here or otherwise need no support, eg married the you can stay and apply for PR / citizenship or a long term visa (to be introdiced). That's what's done elsewhere. Thats my view.

Seems reasonable. The automatic after five years residency that the EU has proposed also seems reasonable. However I don't think taking away someone's freedom (passport) for six months when applying for a UK passport as posted above is reasonable.

As an aside the UK has one of the mosf generous refimes to apply for citizenship and we are very flexible about multiple passports / nationalities unlike other countries.

I agree with and benefit from the second part, but strongly disagree with the first part - the conditions people have to meet and the bureaucratic obstacles are daunting unless you are are rich enough to meet the conditions and pay an expensive lawyer to do the paperwork for you.

@corn - you have to bear in mind that in Jamba's world a person can be judged entirely in financial terms, and if you are poor you can f@&£ right off. That leads to a certain view of freedom of movement.

EU takes game playing wirh the lives of EU citizens in the UK

Completely wrong. We had a perfectly good system that Brexit tore up. The problem is 100% of the UK making

It looks like UK has the highest population density amongst all European nations according to [url= https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Area_and_population_of_European_countries ]Wiki.[/url] (those few before UK in the list are peanuts with small population)

At the moment UK has 267 people/square KM but if you increase that to 400 people/square KM, you will have approximately 97 million people ... give and take some departing etc ...

Bear in mind with good health care etc the living is living longer.

The question is how many million people do you want?

Because at some point in time you will be the one that is old and frail that cannot even afford to live in your own home. Just like the young people now they will wish you depart quickly to free up space ... 😯

DrJ - Member

EU takes game playing wirh the lives of EU citizens in the UK

Completely wrong. We had a perfectly good system that Brexit tore up. The problem is 100% of the UK making

Define perfect.

Perfect for who?

Me, amongst others.

Define perfect.

Perfect for who?

48% of the electorate I believe 😆

Perfect for the UK.

If we don't have immigration then the old are really in trouble.
Who do you think staffs the services the old rely on?

Perfect for the UK.

If we don't have immigration then the old are really in trouble.
Who do you think staffs the services the old rely on?

Yeah, you had the chance to make that opinion known before the referendum as well.

Democracy, eh?

48% of the electorate I believe

Hard to say, only 36% voted Leave a d not all of those wanted to end fom so a small minority wanted to kill off immigration and they are getting that regardless of the consequences.

Of course, the corollary to that is that less than 35% voted to stay...

And none of those answered a question directly about immigration so point made there.

Lowest turnout since '69 supposedly.

Pest ou Cholera

First time ever people had to be paid to man polling stations, PS and UMP normally volunteer. Indication of lack of people on the ground for both candidates.

@Edukator you have kids and 5 year residency so a French passport is a formaility ?

Or the result being a forgone conclusion?

Anyway, Macron 65% of the vote.

Back from counting two envelopes:

Macron 165
Le Pen 18
Blanc/nuls 17

I'm not sure what the question is Jamba. What France is proposing along with other countries, or the current situation in France. The EU suggestion is five years. [url= https://www.service-public.fr/particuliers/vosdroits/F2213 ]In France these are the criteria at present.[/url]

Putin is losing his touch. Still 2/3 ain't bad.

Yeah, it wasn't even close vote. But that's the way it is, anti-eu and populism is so last season.

When they came they had the right to stay forever, imo that should change.

So "send them home" ?

So the Dutch saw sense, now the French, maybe the Germans will lurch to the right, 35% lepen is still worrying

But it seems like it's just Britain who's decided to throw the baby out with the bath water.

Oh well tenuous excuse for a bit of Goldfrapp

At the moment UK has 267 people/square KM

If you think it is "too crowded" here, you do have the option to **** off.
We wouldn't miss you.
Make room for someone with a more generous disposition towards our friends, family and neighbours.

Better still how about a song that celebrates France's diversity and has a little dig at Jean-Marie Le Pen at 2:48.

Well it looks like sense still exists in some countries. Good majority too, none of that 52/48 nonsense.

You stay classy Leave.EU

[img] [/img]

I like this response:

[img] [/img]

I see the reminders are all very quickly up in arms to grab something to celebrate. 😯

Edukator - Reformed Troll
Better still how about a song that celebrates France's diversity and has a little dig at Jean-Marie Le Pen at 2:48.

France has elected their youngest President. 😯

sounds the Leave's plans are falling apart, guess paymaster Putin won't be too happy.

Can we have a Centrist government now please?

mrmo - Member
sounds the Leave's plans are falling apart, guess paymaster Putin won't be too happy.

😆 What plan? It's France. Do they have one?

Let see if their youngest President can think beyond his age. 😛