Yes ransoms, kelvin was clarifying that, contrary to opinions expressed earlier, people did know the implications of voting to end membership and what that meant for access to SM. very helpful as others were pretending that this was not the case.
There needs to be a referendum on a proposal… "not EU membership" gives us no direction, as the last two years have made very clear.
kelvin was clarifying that, contrary to opinions expressed earlier, people did know the implications of voting to end membership and what that meant for access to SM
I said that one of the arguments made for EU membership is that all other ways of being part of the Single Market offer reduced access. I said nothing about who knew what about that.
I was making the point that many people thought, and had good reason to, that we could stay part of the Single Market, but would no longer be central to it, when they cast their vote. The examples of Norway and Switzerland were pointed out to is by Leave campaigners, with suggestions that we could do "even better" when it came to the Single Market. And we could. But it has been ruled out by politicians, not by "the people".
Part of - tut, tut
we can still have "access to" , someone aluded to that earlier with a list of quotes from some Brexshiteers
Part of
Yes indeedy… read the gov link I posted, I even did some copy and paste for you… I'll repeat it here again, especially for you…
The European Economic Area (EEA)
The EEA includes EU countries and also Iceland, Liechtenstein and Norway. It allows them to be part of the EU’s single market.
Switzerland is neither an EU nor EEA member but is part of the single market – this means Swiss nationals have the same rights to live and work in the UK as other EEA nationals.
very helpful as others were pretending that this was not the case.
You do seem quite keen on calling people liars, yet somewhat reticent in substantiating your claim. A poor man's BoJo, I suppose.
All this discussion and no mention recently that the Chequers plan is dead in the water.
We all knew and commented it was. DOA.
love the contradiction between the idea that only “elite circles” (sic) read relevant details but now, hey presto, the thickos (apparently) are going to read and scrutinise the minutiae of the different means of accessing the SM post EU membership .
Mr extrapolate is back...
The pay off must be big and remain must be the broke option....
Phew, since that (EEA) required FoM we can cross out the idea that leavers were racists. That was just the politicians. Good job we don't leave it to those racist bastards then. Forget the nasty Tories old Chukka reckons HM oppo is riddled with institutional racism.
Let the people decide instead....read, scrutinise, decide.
Evening all,
Judt checking in to see if the afternoon shift have managed to post any positive reason to support leaving.
Nope, still just 'will of the people ', maybe tomorrow then.....
Here's what one bloke said:
the RMT general secretary, Mick Cash, said trade unionists had voted for Brexit in droves and should not be ignored
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Is littledave mooman playing both sides?
the RMT general secretary, Mick Cash, said trade unionists had voted for Brexit in droves and should not be ignored
Metric or imperial droves? What were the numbers surveyed this time and the splits. I know the rmt is used to dictating how the country is run but how many people do they represent and how does that stack up with the general **** brexit feeling going about
Are you suggesting good old Mick is a liar?
Are you? What is he actually saying, what are droves how are they defined?
Are you suggesting good old Mick is a liar?
Isn't that your department?
Nice to see Barnier trolling Rees Mogg and Boris ahead of the Tory conference with faint praise for May and her Chequers proposal.
In other news the ERG has once again failed to deliver any alternative proposals of their own. Quelle surprise.
The Tory party conference is going to be absolutel carnage. Highly amusing in a cackling into the abyss sort of way
Don’t worry.......according to Peter Bone (Brexit bullshitter) on the Eddie Mair program broadcast on LBC at 4pm, all will be revealed tomorrow.
link here to broadcast if anyone can stomach the **** terrible 20sec add beforehand
I bet one decent punch would remove peter bones head from his body, I wonder if his body would run around like the cockroach that he resembles
That was "hours" ago… since then, his like minded colleagues have, one by one, said that they can't, and won't produce a plan, because "the ERG is not the government." One consistent, parroted, line from them… an attempt at well managed (empty) messaging?
Many went for bonus points with the "shibboleth" stuff as regards Ireland, again. I have no idea what they're trying to say with that one, but they must think it resonates with someone (not a joke).
they can’t, and won’t produce a plan, because “the ERG is not the government.”
It's easy to to throw feaces from the sidelines as there's no responsibility or culpability. They are hoping to throw enough poo to stick, like beta monkeys do.
So Peter Bone was talking shite?, I hope Eddie Mair gets him back on tmorn and harrangs him till he drops his bowels live on air, **** ERG pricks
I chased that Tory **** Alister Jack (conservative mp for Dumfries and Galloway) down the street a few weeks ago, he refused to answer my questions so I made sure everyone in earshot was informed of his voting record as he scurried away before jumping in his car and buggering off, he’s a proud raving looney member of the ERG and his voting record on Devolved Scottish Parliament issues, human rights, welfare rights and allowing existing eu residents to stay is ****ing abysmal, needless to say he’s a major land owning farmer (not to mention a racist prick).
JRM suggesting a £1.1 trillion boost to the economy with a No Deal Brexit.
Good to see he's working in guineas.
Changed his mind on it being unclear for 50 years whether or not it was a good idea?
In the meantime and looking forward
unemployment stays at lowest level since 1976
wage growth accelerating and rising faster that prices
Compared with the lies our side made pre vote that unemployment would increase and real wages would be lower in the event of a no vote.
Good job they were wrong
The Big Lie theory. Not even attempting a fig-leaf of honesty.
those are all looking back, thm.
wage growth accelerating and rising faster that prices
real wages would be lower in the vent of a no vote
wages have risen faster than inflation for the first time in nearly a year of going backwards in real terms.
Good job they were wrong
You seem to be confusing predictions with lies. I also suspect you are confusing statements about what will happen post brexit with what will happen post brexit vote.
Make your mind up ned. Backwards or forwards?
£ at $1:30 - 5 week high.
BoE new narrative - wages to pick up further (3.5%) going “forward”
It's not my mind that's confused. You said "looking forwards" then quoted a bunch of stats which look backwards. you've only just now introduced a forecast.
And you seem to be missing the pressure placed by our side on previously independent bodies to join-in the unjustified scare stories and influence the outcome of the referendum. Disgraceful.
See where I agreed with Peston here ^
and no I’m not confused - I am referring to the propoganda we produced about the immediate effects of the vote
And you seem to be missing the pressure placed by our side on
all of us lefties always thought osborne was a decitful arsehole, anyway
Re the unemployment figures, let's look at the ONS narrative again
Estimates from the Labour Force Survey show that, between February to April 2018 and May to July 2018, the number of people in work was little changed, the number of unemployed people decreased but the number of people aged from 16 to 64 years not working and not seeking or available to work (economically inactive) increased.
Middle Class Liberals - Conservative Identitiers 32% - Anti-Welfare 4%
Young Working Class Labour Voters - Conservative Identifiers 10% - Anti-welfare 20%
Have the ERG presented their alternative plan yet, to a huge fanfare, as promised....?
It's not all empty news… allegedly… they are to release a plan for the Irish border! At last! Looking forward to that. Apparently it will remove the “shibboleth” that is stopping both the withdrawal agreement, and a future FTA, from being straightforward.
So, are a lot of these anti-welfare Corbyn supporters - secret closeted fascists? Was Hoffer really that accurate when he said that the people who are attracted to fascism and the far left were interchangeable - ie just people who placed their locus of control externally and blame others for all their problems? Eg "immigrants" and "benefits cheats".
That little gem is freaking eye opening, these people don't vote with their heads at all - they are voting purely through identify politics. Labour and leave because **** posh people, benefits cheats and immigrants. Conservative and Leave because **** the working classes, benefits cheats and immigrants.
Was Hoffer really that accurate when he said that the people who are attracted to fascism and the far left were interchangeable – ie just people who placed their locus of control externally and blame others for all their problems? Eg “immigrants” and “benefits cheats”.
Yes.
There has always been a massive gap between the intellectual position of the Labour Party and the beliefs of the majority of its voters. While people voted purely tribally this was sustainable, but modern media has exposed the contradiction - allowing a large chunk of the Labour vote to switch to UKIP, going from a socialist party to a fascist one without any sense of the ridiculousness of this move. Once the Tories adopted UKIP policies and posturing the ex-Labour voters moved on to the Tories, making UKIP irrelevant but giving Labour a huge problem that they will probably never recover from.
£ at $1:30 – 5 week high.
It's about time we had some good news. It was $1.43 last April. What happened?
Bwhahahahahh, so in reality Corbyn just swung Labour right (or further around the horseshoe, so they are closer to the right). I guess that the anti-Semitism fits then, monkey see monkey do etc.
So much for all the right-on Corbyn supporters on here then, to think that Blair wasn't the villain.
Bwhahahahahh, so in reality Corbyn just swung Labour right
Dont suppose you have the evidence supporting this claim do you?
Well, look at the attitudes of those who identify with Labour who are working class and under the age of 45 in that paper.
That's a ticking time bomb for the Labour party.
https://medium.com/@TXHart/why-do-neo-nazis-like-jeremy-corbyn-298d72b4d4ef
Consider the example of Eastern Europe and the former Soviet Union. Why do these countries still retain such strong nationalist feelings? Why are the far right strongholds in Germany all located in the East? The answer lies in their socialist past. The very function of a planned economy militates against openness and free movement. A planned economy cannot allow people to enter or leave a country as they wish, since to do so would irrevocably damage the plan. Indeed, the USSR didn’t even allow its citizens to move freely between cities – let alone countries. You can’t just have people leaving Moscow for Minsk when they like, if you want the five year plan to succeed. Aside from this, everyone knew that if the citizens were given a free choice they would have left the USSR and Eastern Bloc never to return.
The result is that socialism, though formally internationalist, is in its operation parochial and nationalist. As Marx would have observed, the mode of production determines the prevailing ideology. When the mode of production requires a static and controlled population, the ideology becomes nationalist and parochial. This means that socialism, insofar as it seeks to plan an economy, is also generative of nationalism, xenophobia, and even racialist thinking.
I think it's time that libertarian conservatives and labour members formed their own party.
£ at $1:30 – 5 week high.
Wow! A whole 5 week high. What a time to be alive.
https://www.xe.com/currencycharts/?from=GBP&to=USD&view=5Y
Long since argued that the leftVright narrative hides what is really going on politically. But other simplistic alternatives also fall well short … openVclosed, liberalVilliberal, nationalistVglobalist, authoritarianVdemocratic … they don't really help that much in understanding what political parties need to do next.
I think it’s time that libertarian conservatives and labour members formed their own party.
Perhaps having more parties would give more flexibility to parties to adjust… but our system kills minor parties. Still, the SDP/Alliance/LibDems helped pull the two main parties away from the extremes, and forced them to try and better represent the electorate at large… currently they only really need to not be the other party, for much of the electorate. Many are voting against one, rather than for the other. We need a third party to change that agenda and direction, even if it can never hope to form a government. UKIP "succeeded" in this way, they set the agenda, achieved their main goals, yet never got a sniff of being in the UK government. Where as the death of the LibDems may well have had a negative effect on both main parties, as far as the electorate at large is concerned. Third parties can lose yet change the direction of the other parties, and the country, if we give them enough votes.
The political parties can lay out policies and perform actions in line with those policies.
They cannot control who votes for them, what the voter has based it on etc,. The average voter is completely ignorant about politics and does not vote based on a true understanding of what a party represents.
Exactly why populist stuff works so well.
That little gem is freaking eye opening, these people don’t vote with their heads at all – they are voting purely through identify politics
It was ever thus. Regardless of what's going on in the world, people often vote the way they've always voted IME. I see this all the time on a pro-remain Facebook group - everyone's united until someone mentions a political party and then it all goes "yes but the Iraq war" or "yes but tuition fees." Folk continually look backwards rather than forwards. It's a Problem.
Don’t forget Fatcha - single handedly closed down whole industries apparently. Never forgiven in some parts, depsite the fact she had nothing like such power or influence
Will they be capable of reading and scrutinising the details of different types of access to SM?!?
Give it up. Your "reading and scrutinising" has been shown to be well below par. Shall we do the "part of the Single Market" argument, yet again?
Don’t blame me blame the HoL. They set the correct standards. Others ignore them for often dubious means. You can choose. Post edit, you can also choose the appropriate possessive pronoun (?) re reading and scrutinising . Saves mid-attributing quotes to the wrong people
As a golfer always glad to be below par, so thanks
I don't understand golf. Different worlds we circulate in.
I do know that a country can be part of the Single Market, while not a member of the EU, and that there are already examples of that. EU member states have more friction free "access" than those who are not EU members, but the biggest barrier there is not being inside the Customs Union. We can be inside that as well, while not being an EU member… it would indeed be "unprecedented" and "a bespoke arrangement", but the EU have offered us that… as it's in the overwhelming interest of "all sides" to go for such a relationship.
I don't understand the riddle in your edit THM. Do you use this opaque style for a reason? If you have a point, make it clear for us, please.
Well let’s hope we get to a win:win result - or should we say lose as little as poss: lose as little as poss?
riddle? You keep attributing things to me incorrectly?
?
under par v below par. GBP v USD 5 week high being touted as good, along with a lot of other stuff that's refuted very quickly.
You occasionally make some useful points about balance and bias, but spoil it all with loads of unnecessary stuff that's too easily called out as bullshit. Like ninfan on the Trump thread. Are you trying to convince anyone of anything, or not?
under par v below par
Indeed, I know what "below par" means in my world, and I thought I knew what "under par" meant in the golf world… but I admit to being very ignorant about golf… but then I wasn't referring to golf.
All a distraction though. Can we go back to getting the Single Market and Customs Union back on the table on "our side"… ? Not sure how, with our current leading politicians. Perhaps if they were encouraged to find "a deal acceptable to the people" by a threatened referendum, they might chose a means of exit that has the interests of all at the centre of it.
Sorry Ned, looking forward 😏
if you want us to focus on £ many months ago, feel free
the BS is simple - the lies we told as part of project fear are the ones that have been exposed. The hypocrisy is the fact that we pretend that only one side lied and use this to argue that a vote was therefore invalid. Real BS
Who the **** are "we" ?
List and attribute said lies… you might find we agree with you about them, if you stop being vague.
attitudes of those who identify with Labour who are working class and under the age of 45 in that paper.
The bit I am struggling with is your triumphal claim that Corbyn swung Labour rightwards. Where is this supported?
Getting access to the SM has never been off the table, at least not on our side
We = our side/those who wanted remain (occasionally used for a sub segment which is less correct before diss picks that up too)
its hard to keep up with your edits
Let's get staying part of the Single Market, and Customs Union, back on the table… it's only ruled out by "our side".
List and attribute these remain "lies" please THM. As I said, we might agree… or you might be talking about how Leave campaigners reported on "Project Fear"… you know, all the "WWIII" and "we'll go into recession immediately following a Leave vote" over simplifications and distortions.
under par v below par
Perhaps it was this confusion that led to the financial crash? Lots of golf-playing bankers who thought "subpar lending" must mean it is really good. 🙂
Sub par or sub prime 😳
You've never heard of subpar lending THM?
What IS it that you do?
Bwhahahahahh, so in reality Corbyn just swung Labour right (or further around the horseshoe, so they are closer to the right).
My model of political persuasion is a circular one. If moderate is 12 o'clock and you go clockwise for increasingly right wing and anti-clockwise for increasingly left wing, then the two merge imperceptibly at 6 o'clock.
I think it’s time that libertarian conservatives and labour members formed their own party.
Now you just need to think of a name and try to attract voters away from the established parties.
Someone said that the govt had forecast brexit would only cost 0.6% of GDP. I think that might be one of the lies THM is referring to.
Well I'm no highly qualified financier but to quote wikipedia:
In finance, subprime lending (also referred to as near-prime, subpar, non-prime, and second-chance lending) means making loans to people who may have difficulty maintaining the repayment schedule
Use the queens English not the US bastardised version. Avoids being vague 😉
Captain - has a mod stolen your log in?
the BS is simple – the lies we told as part of project fear are the ones that have been exposed.
Once more with feeling: which lies are you referring to? You keep asserting this, yet you've yet to back it up with evidence or even explain what you're actually referring to. Because you can't, it's just rhetoric and propaganda.
But you know this don't you, you're not silly. It's been your game plan since you got back, you know full well that if you actually provided any evidence for anything or backed up what you were claiming then you wouldn't be winding people up half as much.
It seems the limit of THM's financial experience is that he managed to get himself an overdraft.
Use the queens English not the US bastardised version
"Sub-prime" is a term from those Americans, is it not?
What sector DO you work in?
Either that or a lesser-known Transformer.
Avoids being vague
Why break the habit of a lifetime? 😀
Have the ERG presented their alternative plan yet
They have done their big PR meeting but facts still seem slim on the ground. They are leaving it until tomorrow to sort out Northern Ireland. Apparently their proposal " “which any reasonable person would accept". The use of reasonable there I think shows a similar lack of understanding of NI politics that Karen Bradley showed.
On the plus side Steve Baker says whilst most economists are uiseless fortunately they have been lucky enough to get the couple whose analysis is based in reality. Fortunate really that reality matches his ideology. Who would have thought it?
that he managed to get himself an overdraft.
The question is whether it was an authorised one or not. I reckon even odds.
Still failing to read the posts from pages back and the Peston ones cougar???
as part of project fear we told lots of lies about the impact of the vote immediately before hand. They were wrong then, even more so now. You can tell a moaner from a mainer depending on whether they accept this or not. The former are more prevent - at least here
it’s a bit like the “white lie” about a reformed EU. It can only go one way if the € is to survive - heaven forbid.
Use the queens English not the US bastardised version.
Which one is Queen's English THM?
worse than usual, or below the expected standard
relating to a bond or share that sells at a price that is lower than the value shown on it
-- https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/below-par
not feeling or performing as well as normal
if a bond or stock is priced below par, it is trading below its face value.
-- https://www.collinsdictionary.com/dictionary/english/below-par
above (or below or under) par: Better (or worse) than is usual or expected.
-- https://en.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/par
😉
Lots of lies eh?
They’ll be easy for you to list then!