A deal is impossible but project fear 2 is sabotaging it. Do you deny that?
Oooh catchy movie title and tagline.
The people talking down the UK’s ability to get a good deal makes me want to defecate in disgust.
The negotiations are being purposely sabotaged by remainiacs who would rather see the UK starving than admit that brexit is actually in the national interest.
You have got to be shitting me. "Troll" doesn't do it justice.
Crack on, then roll around in it coz “yer fu’ o’ shit” (to paraphrase a well versed local saying)
All in jest really as we all realise you are a piss-poor troll, or the equivalent of “that” guy at the end of the bar who gets shown the door
Well it won't be me that's rolling around in it because I paddle my own canoe and I've made sure my future is secure thanks.
That Dickens post is genius!
Why thank you *blush* (yes I know you were taking the piss).
So is project fear 2 sabotaging us not getting a deal?
Most of us have said the deal any of the brexiters wanted was impossible. That isn’t news to us
mikewsmith - I think you'll find most brexiteers want a good deal rather than no deal including me. But I would still rather have no deal than stay in.
mikewsmith – I think you’ll find most brexiteers want a good deal rather than no deal including me.
I know Unicorns and Fairies
But I would still rather have a no deal than stay in.
Given as we have told you how WTO makes that shit and all other things what does no deal mean?
Glad to sabotage that absolute car crash of a plan.
Well it won’t be me that’s rolling around in it because I paddle my own canoe and I’ve made sure my future is secure thanks.
Dual Citizen (not France is it?)? Big cash in the bank?
Any one been following these?
Yep, it’s interesting stuff getting a view from the coal face as opposed to the bollocks the politicians seem to like to trot out.
Told you already mikewsmith that I'm a landlord. If we stay in I'll win because in 20 years the country will have 75 million people and not nearly enough houses. Nope not dual citizen, I like it just fine here.
WTO will be a short term pain in the arse but a long term gain. The issues raised will get resolved, as the WTO Director General says its not the end of the world. I love african bananas anyway.
molgrips – I admit they are crap, but imagine going in to a negotiation knowing that you HAVE to get a deal. And even worse those who you are negotiating with know you have to get a deal. Do you not see how that makes it nearly impossible to get a deal?
Yep, which was one of the many things making remain a good idea.
I don't want to support the government for no deal. How could I? It'd be terrible. I want damage limitation. If that means Norway or Switzerland or a close deal then great. Losing a say will be shit but better that than nothing. Then hopefully people.will realise remaining is the better option, there'll be a second ref and we can dodge the bullet.
They hung those poor buggers in Greece out to dry and I don’t for a moment think they won’t try it with us.
I don't think this is the same situation. The EU wanted its banks to get their money back from Greece. But punishing us for the sake of it will be spite because they will suffer too. They do need to preserve their integrity though, they have absolutely no choice, so they cannot accept anything from us that dilutes that. How can they?
We've put both them and us in no-win situations. What the hell did you expect to happen? And all for pride and bullshit.
Told you already mikewsmith that I’m a landlord. If we stay in I’ll win because in 20 years the country will have 75 million people and not nearly enough houses. Nope not dual citizen, I like it just fine here.
Own all the houses outright? What interest rate can you tolerate? What unemployment rate can you suffer?
WTO will be a short term pain in the arse but a long term gain. The issues raised will get resolved, as the WTO Director General says its not the end of the world.
Wasn't that the PM?
What are the issues and how can we solve them? First up one tariff rate for all countries, next up that passporting one raised earlier.
Just checking what is short term?
Still - and always - IN.
It's clear that there are no 'men in long trousers' in the uk negotiating team and that includes politicos. Barnier & co are unfailingly polite but that's it - they're in control and they know it; they have no reason to change their negotiating stance and, watching the uk's increasingly incoherent approach, why would they?
Then we have May trundling around Africa, regurgitating the same old tired line about being free to make our own trade deals. The Chinese state controlled 'belt and road' initiative is already taking all of the best opportunities; they're backing up words with cold hard cash - and plenty of it. In Africa, money talks.
May & co - trucking useless.
but if they can get away with bleeding us dry why wouldn’t they?
They have said we can have a FTA better than Canada, the most open trade deal in history. And we can have a long transition period to enable as smooth as possible change over to it. But we can't except that, because we know it is still no where close to as good as operating inside the EEA, which we also can't except because our politicians have decided that is against the spirit of a vote we once had. So, both main parties want something that tries to cling onto as many of the benefits as possible of the Single Market, and Customs Union, while escaping from the responsibilities of them.
Dickens.
Whatever your motivations I now just feel sorry for you.
I am breaking (for one post) my self-imposed ban on posting on this thread to tell you that you ought to stop. If you’re trolling, you need to have a good long look at what it is you need from this. If not, you need to promise you’ll still be on here in a year or so’s time when your vision of red white and blue bunting over a street party of solely white faces and spitfires overhead is shown to be utter fantasy. You will have questions to answer.
If you are genuine you really need to look at where all your angst is really coming from. I would recommend riding a mountain bike for a bit of recreation.
I don’t want to support the government for no deal. How could I? It’d be terrible. I want damage limitation. If that means Norway or Switzerland or a close deal then great. Losing a say will be shit but better that than nothing. Then hopefully <span class="skimlinks-unlinked">people.will</span> realise remaining is the better option, there’ll be a second ref and we can dodge the bullet.
Exactly, you don't give a shit about democracy you are just willing your country to fail and hopefully be reunited with your beloved EU. Its not going to happen. The country is not pro eu now and never has been.
Exactly, you don’t give a shit about democracy
Given you can't be bothered to do the other questions.....
Choice was Leave or Stay - Norway & Switzerland are not in the EU so that is still leave. If you had wanted a specific outcome should have fought to have that on the ballot or campaign for a second referendum just to make sure.
The people talking down the UK’s ability to get a good deal makes me want to defecate in disgust.
Trouble is, when Maybot made her Brexit speech she started with "Deal or no deal the U.K. is leaving the EU", now imagine Dickens Mrs Dickens were to start divorce proceedings with that as an opening statement, sure you would say "Goodbye, don't slam the door on the way out"
The country is not pro eu now and never has been.
Looks more like conflicted but not massive either way. Maybe now the truth is getting out about how most of the stuff blamed on the EU was infact ineffective UK governments it will keep going.
more to the point shouldve checked to see if the brexiteers werent just a bunch of spivs & conmen with no plan to make brexit work
you did check to see if they had plan, didnt you?
The people talking down the UK’s ability to get a good deal makes me want to defecate in disgust.
We're a corner shop in a market of supermarkets. If we were able to get a good deal we'd be well on the road to that by now. What have we got in reality? After 18 months of "negotiation" we've managed to secure the same deal we already have with half a dozen developing countries, at a cost of 4bn. What makes you think that's gonna change between now and March? Our country's arrogant sense of self-importance is staggering.
The negotiations are being purposely sabotaged by remainiacs
Yeah, no. Don't you dare have the audacity to try and pin this on us, you can **** right off with that. You broke it, you fix it, it ain't our fault. We warn you and it's "blah blah project fear," then reality bites and it's our fault for not getting behind you. Go Google some Malcolm Tucker quotes.
We haven't sabotaged anything, we're just disagreeing with you. Democratically.
who would rather see the UK starving than admit that brexit is actually in the national interest.
How exactly is Brexit in the national interest?
I still think a good deal is possible
In your ideal world, what does a "good deal" look like? And how is that either a) better than what we already have and b) going to appease the shouty leavers who want to burn everything?
No £40 billion pay off.
There is no "£40bn payoff," it isn't punitive. That figure is what we already owed pre-referendum as ongoing commitments to projects, it's not a "divorce bill" despite what the tabloids will have you believe. We're liable for that money whether we stay in the EU, leave the EU with a deal, or crash out - unless wiping it out is used as some sort of bargaining chip by the EU (and quite why they'd need to do that is beyond me).
The EU will lose tens of billions of trade
Peanuts. Just this week we found £4bn down the back of the sofa to bribe Africa, and the EU is a slightly larger economy than the UK. What the EU will lose is a piss-ant country with delusions of grandeur which is rapidly falling in global importance economically. I wouldn't be at all shocked if they'd be glad to see the back of us.
The Canada style deal with services and no Irish border is the best possible option
And those two options are mutually exclusive. What else have you got?
I think you’ll find most brexiteers want a good deal rather than no deal including me.
Do you have any proof of that? Granted they're not necessarily representative of leavers generally, but the comments I've read over the last 18 months would suggest the opposite.
WTO will be a short term pain in the arse but a long term gain
A "short term pain"?
Do you actually know how many countries currently trade solely on WTO? It'll be a short term pain in the same way that 1945 was a short term pain.
Y'know, assuming the 160-odd WTO members all agree to let us do that, even. Cos if they don't, won't that be exciting!
The country is not pro eu now and never has been.
Gonna need a cite for that too, because I suspect it's also bobbins. Or if you're talking politically rather than being "the will of the people" then it's categorically and demonstrably a lie.
Watching Theresa May doing her dance routine, I suddenly see why the Scotch want to leave the union.
Don't know how true that is....
I think you will find that i postulated that that was a major driving favtor back on about page 45
Indeed.
I think you will find that i postulated that that was a major driving favtor back on about page 45
And I think you will find I explained it wasn't because the provisions that the directive forces countries to adopt are already present in UK tax law and in some cases have been for many years - it is just ill informed twaddle.
Exactly, you don’t give a shit about democracy you are just willing your country to fail
What the hell? I want to remain precisely because I don't want the country to fail. I bloody well live here (not that I've got many options any more thanks guys), and I'm pretty exposed to its economic performance, so I definitely don't want it to fail.
As for democracy - I have no idea what you are talking about. There are many flavours of democracy. It's pretty easy to imagine how it can be done badly as well as being done well. Think about it - good government is NOT simply having everyone vote on everything all the time, even though that would technically be the most democratic. It would be unfeasible and even if it were it would not give the best results.
Good democracy is not simply more democracy. You have to have a system, and the system needs to work for the good of everyone. And generally, asking people their opinion on things they don't understand is not productive.
And I think you will find I explained it wasn’t because the provisions that the directive forces countries to adopt are already present in UK tax law and in some cases have been for many years – it is just ill informed twaddle.
This is news to me. Can you suggest further reading that explains this? (Genuine request, not arguing.)
As for democracy – I have no idea what you are talking about.
That's easy. The new 2018 definition of "undemocratic" is "disagreeing with people."
Brexiter argument so far seem to be simply 'it'll be fine'. And so far I've not seen much to back that up. I just see loads of people saying we're going to be up shit creek. So forgive me for being a bit sceptical of the current direction.
Rabb says we are close to a deal, Barnier says we are close to a deal that does not change the core principals of the EU...
Norway it is then. Lets watch the Daily Mailers explode when Parliament votes it through...
This is news to me. Can you suggest further reading that explains this? (Genuine request, not arguing.)
Not really because I don't need an article to inform me as it is a field I have worked in for over 30 years. However, you can look up the the directive which deals with 5 areas and then you can cross refer to the UK controlled foreign company legislation that was introduced in the 1980s, the general anti-avoidance rules introduced in 2013, the DPT provisions introduced in 2015 etc etc.
Are you TH "No Links" M in disguise?
https://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/PDF/?uri=CELEX:52016PC0026&from=EN
https://www.gov.uk/hmrc-internal-manuals/international-manual/intm190000
https://www.gov.uk/government/collections/tax-avoidance-general-anti-abuse-rule-gaar
https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/diverted-profits-tax-yield-methodological-note
etc
Exactly, you don’t give a shit about democracy you are just willing your country to fail and hopefully be reunited with your beloved EU. Its not going to happen. The country is not pro eu now and never has been.
Agree ^^^
If in the far east we a small nation of about 30 million people, with the oldest PM in the world at 93, can stand up to China with no fear then why are people (remainers) in the UK so fearful of EU?
http://news.bbc.co.uk/onthisday/hi/dates/stories/june/6/newsid_2499000/2499297.stm this seems to contradict the"the country is not pro EU and never will be" bollocks.
I am astonished THM has the brassneck to return to this thread seeing as everything he has said has turned out to be rubbish and everything he said would not happen has. I would be too embarrassed.
How are " the adults behind the scenes" doing? Got a deal yet?
Coherent position from the tories anyone? You know one that is possible under EU law?
Jobs flight and capital flight from brexitt Uk has now really taken off and is accelerating from airbus and JLR to the various banks relocation into the EU but this was apparently just "project fear"
Growth down dramatically. etc etc
German car manufacturers begging Merkel to let the UK keep on buying their cars? That one has really worked hasn't it.
EU citizens rights and UK citizens in the EUs rights all sorted are they?
Medicines regulations sorted?
Airline regulations sorted?
Cue personal attacks on me for pointing out that THMs record on this is 100% wrong.
That’s ‘Scots’ btw. ‘Scotch’ is a drink.
Carry on.
The people talking down the UK’s ability to get a good deal makes me want to defecate in disgust.
the trouble is we had almost the best deal that it was possible to have. All the benefits of membership with one foot on the outside and full veto power. Most of what Brexiteers want is available under our current agreement except we cannot do individual trade deals but then as part of the eu we have more negotiating power as has been seen in the current round of negotiations.
now if the Uk decided what deal it wanted then perhaps negotiations might be successful but as they is no clear direction the deal will be crap. It's like going to a supermarket picking up random crap then going home to cook a pizza only to realise you don't have the ingredients, recipe and your oven has run out of gas...
In contrast, I am not surprised that an internet bully retuns with a personally directed post repeating the same BS.
Growth surprised on upside while Eu now slowing. Exactly as cycles suggest. No flight of bankers or capital (look at U.K. gov borrowing costs) etc. Project fear proved to be just that. We are hiring in London with people from EU and non Eu. Fortunately some of us democrats are getting on with life
And the hyperbole continues. See above about bribing Africa.
The people talking down the UK’s ability to get a good deal makes me want to defecate in disgust.
Unfortunate reaction - I can imagine you don't get many dinner invitations. Medical advice seems appropriate - perhaps start another thread?
If in the far east we a small nation of about 30 million people, with the oldest PM in the world at 93, can stand up to China with no fear then why are people (remainers) in the UK so fearful of EU?
Because were in a different situation. One in which the EU holds all the cards as we knew they would.
Easiest deal in history my arse.
I can’t really add too much to Cougar’s lengthy-ish reply at the top of this page.
The reason Raab is ‘bricking it’ is that he knows he will be carrying the can at the end of this sorry affair. He is ‘negotiating’ from a position of total weakness and the other side have seen the hand he is holding (not that this is a game in any real sense). He now has only one real option which is to play chicken with Barnier and the EU in the hope that they don’t want a far right basket case of a country on their northern border. And the best thing anyone will have to say about him is “well he was less of a dickhead than David Davis”. I’d look like I’d just become doubly incontinent every time I was in a room with Barnier too.
But then Raab has propbably got some mates who’ll see him right in any case, so I have no sympathy. This is his and his cabal’s fault, so frankly, **** him.
But if we’re going around slinging out accusations of paranoia and unfounded fear......
We are all digitally connected and you are spreading fear and sabotaging your country.
Then I can assure dickens that it is not just Barnier ‘laughing his cock off’, as that is the best worst post I think I have ever seen on STW. Comedy gold, the only tragedy being that the author can’t appreciate it for its true genius.
Mega Lolz.
Project fear proved to be just that.
sure as long as I retain freedom to live, work in the EU as well as for goods and capital to move without borders my fears will be asswaged.
Everyone's project fear is different much like everyone's idea of what Brexit means
still one month to get the deal and TM is dancing in Africa...
Your bum will be salaried? 😳
No flight of bankers or capital (look at U.K. gov borrowing costs) etc.
Not sure where you're looking, but the yankee bank I work for are definitely going to lose a lot of business when they lose their passport.
It's not going to happen in the near future, but we are definitely moving European headquarters to somewhere other than London in the medium term.
The ECB have already said you can't "brass plate" so it remains to be seen just how much of the operation moves, and how many high-paid jobs disappear in the next 5-10 years...
Oh look, Panasonic are moving their European HQ out of the UK because of concerns over tax post Brexit. More project fear eh?
No link, I'm sure everyone can Google it.
The Japanese ambassador did hold up a big bloody sign indicating this would happen. That was project fear of course.
Growth surprised on upside while Eu now slowing. Exactly as cycles suggest. No flight of bankers or capital (look at U.K. gov borrowing costs) etc. Project fear proved to be just that.
I’m not an economist so need a bit of help; if growth surprised how can that be in line with a cycle which suggests known outcomes? I asked a fair while back how UK can assumed to be still on a previously identified economic cycle as brexit seems to move us into a new economic orbit and given the uncertainty how can any new cycle be predicted. See previous post re jobs going .
The economy does sound in good shape though;
Samuel Tombs , the chief UK economist at the consultancy Pantheon Macroeconomics, said: “Growth [was] revised up, but the details are worse than before.”
Even though there was a revision for the first quarter, officials said the annual rate of expansion for the economy was unchanged at 1.2% – the weakest level recorded since the year to the second quarter of 2012.
The ONS also downgraded the rate of growth for 2017 from 1.8% to 1.7%, meaning the UK was the only country from the G7 group of wealthy nations to record a slowdown last year.
Molgrips: Easiest deal in history my arse.
How could it be easier ....?
Having reserved our valentines day table at a resto called VEGAN RESTO... we push through the waiting masses and get to our table and start negotiating about how we will leave unless they serve us a lamb shank.
It's not on the menu, it's not in the kitchen anyway and if it was it would take 5hrs and there is a queue outside.... Pick something off the menu or go and find another resto or given today is valentines day/mother's day go and cook something at home and just co-incentally it's against our philosophy anyway and if we did have meat in the kitchen we would lose many of our loyal members/customers.
Cougar: We’re a corner shop in a market of supermarkets.
Well, everyone wants the supermarkets... they voted for supermarkets ... then complain bitterly when the corner shops close down. The corner shop owners and local trade "experts" had all been warning them this would happen... but who listens to the "experts"....
Besides ... look at the proof... sales are up in the closing down sales. All the corner shops had to do was sell at a loss...
just had a chat with my MD who's based in Belgium, he's preparing for a Hard Brexit, basically because the Muppets running it haven't got a clue what they are doing or what they want.
looks like the glee at the dm & express was short lived as Barnier torpedos the chequers deal
Barnier said of the EU’s offer: “It cannot be built to the detriment of who we are. The internal market, the home market, is indeed our most important asset ... We respect all the red lines of the United Kingdom. They do not want to abide by the rules of the court of justice, they do not want to follow our legal framework, they do not want to pay, they do not want freedom of movement. All of these are the cornerstones of the single market and the EU. So we have to preserve and protect what makes us.”
The economy does sound in good shape though
Indeed.. You only have to look at the grass roots to see that police budgets cut so they are reactive rather than proactive, NHS on it's knees, social care facing cut after cut, local councils facing cut after cut.
If the economy was healthy then there would be budgets for essential services that at least maintained a steady level of service, but it's not.
It could be that it's mismanagement at regional level .. It very probably is, but central government simply cutting budgets instead of managing them is a complete cop out . And that's not a EU issue, that's just incompetence within the UK government..
just had a chat with my MD who’s based in Belgium, he’s preparing for a Hard Brexit, basically because the Muppets running it haven’t got a clue what they are doing or what they want.
Did you explain to him that it's all to do with "cycles" and the grown-ups are sorting it?
looks like the glee at the dm & express was short lived as Barnier torpedos the chequers deal
It’s ok. A few more rattles of the no-deal sabre in front of them and they’ll cave. (As soon as the German Car Industry tells them to anyway.)
Because were in a different situation. One in which the EU holds all the cards as we knew they would.
Easiest deal in history my arse.
What is so different? The deal was signed but if the people do not see it as fair or do not want it they have the rights to change their decision.
Just like our situation (Far East) where we have already SIGNED the deals (btw govts) but as the deals were one sided (due to our stupid ex-pm (current PM quote) signing up to give so much of our rights away) we have decided to cancel all of the previously signed deals. Yes, we have to pay penalty but that can be negotiated.
If there is an exit clause (article 50) then I see no reasons why UK cannot use it. The exit clause is there just for this purpose otherwise what is the use of exit clause. Unless of course UK want to behave like our ex-pm who signed agreements without exit clause?
whats an exit clause?
anyway Deal or no deal, still gotta get through parliament
nothing so far will pass labours brexit tests, or soubry/grieves
that leaves a slim tory majority as long as the labour leave MPs keep supporting the hard-right tories
of course DUP might object to that border thing too....
looks like the glee at the dm & express was short lived as Barnier torpedos the chequers deal
He did that the second he announced he would offer a deal - on the EU's terms, why the tories went another 9 rounds to hammer out a deal they all hate is beyond me.
Unless
Sounds like you need to move bank Jim. Your lot seem very badly prepared. Most Uk and Uk-domiciled US banks very well prepared and the French are even ramping up operations in the U.K. to take advantage of the silly ones who are fannying about.
Or could it be your not all seeing thm and others do not agree with you?
Im paid to know what they are doing so happy to follow my own research thanks
if others want to take another view and “lose a lot of business” that’s their choice. Not my preferred one though
if others want to take another view and “lose a lot of business” that’s their choice. Not my preferred one though
And others probably say the same about you
Nothing is certain you are just playing the odds to what you believe are your strengths against your acceptable level of risk.
Nope.
The return of the classic "nope" dead end post!
If you have nothing to say…
Hence - nope. To do what mike says would be bizarre. Needs no comment.
Nope.
Are we back in the land of Schrodinger's Banker?
The ones who will never leave London but will be on the first plane if there is even a hint of taxing them a bit more 😉
To do what mike says would be bizarre. Needs no comment.
What that you are not all seeing or that businesses make decisions based on what they know and how much risk they are prepared to take?
Im paid to know what they are doing so happy to follow my own research thanks
That's rather worrying but given the time you spend on here just how much research have you done, Grimsby Times excluded.
Im paid to know what they are doing so happy to follow my own research thanks
I think as Jim said he works for the bank in question you need to put up something about what you actually do for a living that trumps the horses mouth as it were.
We supply paint denaturants U.K. to Europe car manufacturers, and he’s looking at supplying from Europe to Europe thus avoiding tariffs, can see the U.K. operation closing before too long the way everyone’s leaving the U.K.
Called “holiday” drac
i did. I get paid to know what banks are and should do. I don’t know any that are preparing to lose business. That would be absurd. Ditto I don’t know any that are not prepared for Brexit. Leave that for the moaners. Banks have too much too lose including tax payers money 😉
I get paid to know what banks are and should do.
I assume that involves your opinion not a specific formula written on a stone tablet?
I don’t know any that are preparing to lose business. That would be absurd.
Are you saying leaving the UK is losing business? If so they could be the words missing from your post. Again that sounds like it's your interpretation of the information you have gathered and your assessment of the upcoming (undefined) future.
Ditto I don’t know any that are not prepared for Brexit. Leave that for the moaners.
Do you know all their preparations? Do you think they will be shouting them out especially if they thought it would deliver a competitive advantage? Or is there a special secret bankers newspaper? Maybe you all tell each other in the club.
Banks have too much too lose including tax payers money
Or the proposition may not meet their aims, objectives and risk profile.
But of course at no point in recent history have bankers ever been shown to have really poor judgement, miss the upcoming storm or make decisions based on greed.
Were you one of those that got an unexpected holiday back in 07/08?
You assume??? After all you said??
Jim mentioned losing business. Ask him.
Yes. They are very public about them for obvious tessons. Discussions do take place correct.
They regularly show bad judgement but I have yet to meet one who sets out to lose business. That would be a “brave” proposition
i did. I get paid to know what banks are and should do.
Means nothing.
You assume??? After all you said??
Well it's fairly hard to decipher some of your posts these days. Is there a stone table that tells your what is right or wrong? What is going to happen in 12 months? What is going on?
They regularly show bad judgement but I have yet to meet one who sets out to lose business. That would be a “brave” proposition
We could call it consolidate our position, refocus out portfolio, whatever we want to call moving on and out of something....
I've seen plenty of businesses who have moved out of a market because they are just not into it and are not happy with how it's going and other markets will do better for them. Drop some to gain some elsewhere.
Also never trust somebody who thinks they are 100% right when all the facts are not known at this point.
To you, clearly. So you can relax and not worry about it.
and don’t trust a bank CEO who is not aware of what the potential outcomes are and has not prepared for all of them. But don’t worry. They will be few and far between
To you,
Are you the remaining chuckle brother then? condolences on your loss.
What bad taste
and don’t trust a bank CEO who is not aware of what the potential outcomes are and has not prepared for all of them.
So none of these outcomes involve leaving the UK? Surprising really, unless you selected the outcomes before you started.