[Closed] EU Referendum - are you in or out?

FWIW I've been called toe curling things by people I have disagreed with (I was recently put on a Twitter list called "next time an immigrant commits rape, blame them"). But I don't accuse the people who don't do it (and I am confidant would not support it).

I wouldn't worry, growing up i was called a paddy bastard and a provo, amongst other anti irish things*. It is why i am not English and am now as May put it a citizen of nowhere. I had hoped i would never have to see that side of the English again, but i was sadly wrong.

*Yes i have an Irish surname, and a passport, but i have never lived there, infact i have spent 8 days in the republic in my life.

The EU has brought peace and stability. Can't put a price on peace and not murdering millions of people.

Peace brought about by 100,000's of largely American and British troops stationed in Germany, a more sympathetic approach to Germany post WW2 (ie no reparations) and NATO. Oh yes and nuclear weapons. The EU has contributed to instability with its political agenda to incorporate ex USSR nations. The (possible / likely) collapse of the euro could well lead to substantial instability especially in Southern Europe.

@mrmo The Guardian the numner 1 journal of the Remoaner. Note the word [b]could[/b] means you can write just about what you want. Who gives a toss what the EU thinks about the UK's governance of the Falklands ?

not really .

Peace because we dont seem to attack each other anymore .

but well done , good try .

Yes i have an Irish surname, and a passport, but i have never lived there, infact i have spent 8 days in the republic in my life.

Just as well. According to jambalaya, it's a backward country anyway.

@jambalaya - I suspect we share the same MP, have an appointment with her in just over a week which was arranged prior to election announcement. I've already had a dummy run with a local Councillor who was shocked at what I told him but have zero expectations of MP showing any interest. Shall have a darn good try when on the soapbox! 😀

I see a strong trend of self victimisation amongst leavers. Blame the other. There are disturbing historical parallels.

Well done for destroying your own point in two lines - very impressive.

The EU has contributed to instability with its political agenda to incorporate ex USSR nations.

Oh right. Nothing to do with Nato expanding eastwards then.

The (possible / likely) collapse of the euro could well lead to substantial instability especially in Southern Europe.

Repeating it won't make it come true.

jambalaya - Member
Peace brought about by 100,000's of largely American and British troops stationed in Germany, a more sympathetic approach to Germany post WW2 (ie no reparations) and NATO. Oh yes and nuclear weapons. The EU has contributed to instability with its political agenda to incorporate ex USSR nations. The (possible / likely) collapse of the euro could well lead to substantial instability especially in Southern Europe.

You don't have to demonstrate your lack of knowledge Jamba. It's not mandatory.

NATO undoubtedly plays its part, as does the ECHR and the EU including predecessors.

Actually I don't think you are demonstrating a lack of knowledge - I think you are willlfully ignoring what you know to be true.

War every 30 years or so in western Europe for centuries stops with the introduction of those 3 pillars.

And now you're old enough not to be called up, you want to disassemble them.

Not good Jamba not good.

Has Solo offered up any anti-Europe reality yet?

I may have missed it, but I am interested.

NATO defends the borders.

But this is the first time in history the 3 major powers of Western Europe - UK, France, Germany, have been at peace for an extended period.

The EU is very material to that.

Even if that's the only benefit of the EU, the fabled £350mm/week is loose change for the return.

-

Many of those who voted leave, knew exactly what Brussels was and was not doing for them.
However, in true lefty tradition, don't play the ball. Instead, play the Man and label all leavers as dumb, racist, etc, etc.
Because that way remainistas don't have to deal with the reality those who voted leave, were forced to deal with, in their daily lives.
Very classy!

Please elaborate.

I asked that yesterday. Haven't seen anything beyond that assertion yet.

Many of those who voted leave, knew exactly what Brussels was and was not doing for them.

I don't think you did.. but we'll find out if it stops doing it won't we 🙂

Oh and that's not playing the man - that would be if I called you an idiot or some other abuse.

And yes I fully appreciate the problems that huge numbers of people face daily. I do not live in a privileged bubble. However, I don't think those problems are caused by the EU, I think they could well get much worse after the vote.

If they improve (as I hope they do) it'll be because future governments have nowhere to hide any more and might start actually doing their job.

I do live in a privileged bubble, so can someone point out the daily problems caused by the EU please.

Help me to understand your plight.

I lucked my way into a privileged bubble so I also need some help on why the EU is causing daily problems for people that are 100% EU and nothing to do with our own government.

I do live in a privileged bubble, so can someone point out the daily problems caused by the EU please.

Help me to understand your plight.

I have a couple of friends who work in trades and say their incomes have been reduced due to wage competition from EU incomers. I've no idea if that stands up to scrutiny, but that's what they say and that's directly why they voted leave.

I have a couple of friends who work in trades and say their incomes have been reduced due to wage competition from EU incomers. I've no idea if that stands up to scrutiny, but that's what they say and that's directly why they voted leave.

The only studies i have come across show no affect to maybe -2%.

Matt - heard that said too but like you I haven't seen any data that backs up that assertion.

Edit: so -2% max. Or less than the additional inflationary effect of Brexit.

They don't mean 2%.

I don't totally buy it myself but it's plausible.

But I don't think leaving will fix it for them - if there's less labour then their rates may rise a little but only until they hit the affordability ceiling, and if there's negative impact on the economy (we're in the SE so dependent on the City) then the market will contract. Less City bonuses = less spending on non-essential home upgrades.

And more DIY

Personally I think we were in a stronger position when we negotiated as a part of world's largest trading block. But I can see the opposing argument.

Graham, any post-pint-with-Jamba insights you can share?

Personally I think we were in a stronger position when we negotiated as a part of world's largest trading block. But I can see the opposing argument.

Strangely enough, I can't.

Me neither. It would presumably require the other party to treat the solo UK preferentially to the EU 27/28.

Does not compute.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-39664537

More good new for retail...............another Brexit win.

^^^^^ EU PUNISHING US I tell you 🙂

DoD does DM 🙂

So what's the EU doing for me? I'll compare a trip to Spain with when I worked there before they were full EU members.

Drove in without stopping.
Continued along roads partly EU financed
Paid the toll with the Euro coins in my pocket.
Used phone at low prices imposed by EU
Booked in to accommodation, no need for a passport.
Drank the tap water (drinking water directive)
MTBed in national parks which are part of EU initiatives
Bought food in a supermarket with the same consumer information as everywhere else in the EU
Enjoyed fish in a restaurant which may not have survived without EU fisheries policy

oh look, here I am passing through the "uncontrolled, open" UK border at Calais last week.

[img] [/img]

(not pictured - French Army, French customs, ferry company ticketing).

lol if that's not a controlled border what do you want?

Drank the tap water (drinking water directive)

Bloody red tape!

I see a strong trend of self victimisation amongst leavers. Blame the other. There are disturbing historical parallels.

Well done for destroying your own point in two lines - very impressive.

Not to mention that anything assertive the EU does to protect its own members is "bullying us".

Pathetic.

I have a couple of friends who work in trades and say their incomes have been reduced due to wage competition from EU incomers. I've no idea if that stands up to scrutiny, but that's what they say and that's directly why they voted leave.

But, will their incomes go down even further if the economy slides?

[url= http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-39664537 ]Are economic problems starting?[/url]

Keith Richardson, managing director of retail at Lloyds Bank Commercial Banking, said that after record growth in 2016, the retail sector was slowing down.
"These figures suggest that the clouds are now gathering over British consumers," he said.

But, will their incomes go down even further if the economy slides?

I suspect one will be OK as his client base is "old money" and he serves them well so gets plenty of repeats. The other, yes, more likely.

Drank the tap water (drinking water directive)

Bloody red tape!

We were drinking the tap water at a place that produces 100 000 litres of wine ([url= http://www.agerretxakolina.com/en/ ]Agerre white wine[/url]) a year and the lady didn't seem the slightest bit put out.

[i] molgrips - Member
I don't think you did.. but we'll find out if it stops doing it won't we [/i]

Repeating yourself and your opinion that I'm too stupid to know I didn't want to be in Europe as it is, any longer.
And to think you might have posted something intelligent, rather than once again, attacking a leaver, playing the Man.
Still classy then 🙂

[i] Oh and that's not playing the man - that would be if I called you an idiot or some other abuse.[/i]
Ha, ha. You claim leavers didn't know what they voted for, but that's not insulting, or anything, is it..... Of course, it really is insulting, but you known that.
You know what you're saying.
You know you're being divisive, perhaps hoping to start an unnecessary arguement?
That wouldn't be for the first either, molgrips.

[i]And yes I fully appreciate the problems that huge numbers of people face daily. I do not live in a privileged bubble. However, I don't think those problems are caused by the EU, I think they could well get much worse after the vote.[/i]
So in other words you blindly ignore people like me so as to retain your beliefs in your EU is wonderful, paradigm.

Again, almost amusing. You claim to know the issues faced by those who felt they finally had no other choice than to vote leave, as if their issues, were yours, but you really don't know.
Have you ever considered a career in politics.
You will conveniently over look facts such as when David Cameron was shut into a room with most of the other EU leaders and told not to proceed with a referendum.
Why do you suppose that happened. Could it have been those in Brussels knew what was really happening, but seeing as they were doing Ok, they didn't mind that others would suffer during the continued implementation of the Brussels plan.

[i]If they improve (as I hope they do) it'll be because future governments have nowhere to hide any more and might start actually doing their job. [/i]
LOL, more insults from you, when you imply we can't see what you're really saying in that statement.

You now appear to be plumbing new depths of divisiveness on here.
Just slightly cringe worthy you think the rest of us too dumb we can't see what you're really trying to say.
Carry on!
😀

When trying to defend a claim of stupidity it was very unwise to write this

LOL, more insults from you, when you imply we can't see what you're really saying in that statement.

😆

Solo - you still haven't told me (or I've missed it) what daily injuries the EU did you.
What were they? Help me out here, before I start believing you imagined them. And I truthfully don't want to believe that.

To be fair to those suggesting that those voting leave didn't know what they were voting for, I think that the fact we still don't know what Brexit actually means (tariff free access or not, some form of continued free movement or not, ECJ or not - even the three Brexmigos change their tune regularly - except Fox, what happened to Fox) suggests there may be a grain of truth in that.
I accept that you know what you though you were voting for, what you wanted to happen I hope you will accept that isn't quite the same thing.

Solo - Member
...

TL;DR

Solo. You're not doing yourself any favours here.

I'm not calling you stupid. I don't think you are. I think *most* leavers are not aware of the good things the EU does. Probably the most important is that it facilitates trade. We will not get anywhere near as good a deal anywhere else.

You claim to know the issues faced by those who felt they finally had no other choice than to vote leave, as if their issues, were yours, but you really don't know.

I'm ready to listen.

I don't think we've had any specific examples of how the EU harms the UK, have we? It does stop Jambalaya from trading how he wants - this is interesting, and I'd like to know specifically what these rule are and why they exist. That could be a good concrete example.

ooops

[img] [/img]

oh.

You will conveniently over look facts such as when David Cameron was shut into a room with most of the other EU leaders and told not to proceed with a referendum.

Any chance of a link, Solo? Google throws up George Osbourne amongst others but not most of the other EU leaders.

3/10 for your rant solo.

Because that's about all you've done. Rant.

Long on hot air & short on facts.

Please be specific on what exactly the EU has done that's caused you grief.