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I imagine dropping it will be a thorny issue for the Irish who would have a veto, as I would be surprised if all their civil servants and politicians can speak Irish.
Ireland has previously notified that its official language is (Irish) Gaelic.
It is (the last time I checked) the only official language of the EU into which EU documentation has not been translated, as it simply doesn't have the vocabulary for modern technical terms and/or legalese.
Of course English won't be dropped - it is the lingua franca of the workers in the various institutions, let alone the world in general. And it would continue to be so, even if it was "dropped".
We have the USA to thank for this convenience rather than the UK.
Treaties are translated into Irish, but other matters won't be, although this will change in 2022 when it is to be fully adopted. Translators are being recruited now apparently. Whilst Ireland notified Irish, they knew at the time English would also be an official language because of the UK joining. If the UK hadn't joined, would the same decision have been made? I guess it would be the same reasons that it is the first language and if it had no doubt that would have boosted the importance of the language.
I appreciate it is a compulsory subject but how many people in government are truly proficient do you imagine?
We have the USA to thank for this (in)convenience rather than the UK.
Unfortunately attempts at a logical, supremely regular international language failed to gain support. English is a right royal pain in the arse to learn.
I appreciate it is a compulsory subject but how many people in government are truly proficient do you imagine?
Indeed, you make a good point. Everybody knows a little bit. But all business of government is conducted through English. I used to be fluent (thanks to a fluent mother and sister - both went to fully Irish speaking secondary schools so we would go for weeks speaking only Gaelic at home coming up to exam time). It once used to be compulsory to have achieved a certain level at Leaving Certificate to gain entry to university (no matter what degree) but I think even that's been relaxed. If you answer an exam paper in Gaelic, you get extra marks (10% of your achieved score) - at least you did in my day, but not sure what applies now.
Curiously, it's regained popularity slightly in the form of [i]Gaelscoils[/i] (literally: School of Irish) [pronounced Gwale-skull] where the middle classes have found a way to exclude working class children (traditionally no interest in Gaelic) - a kind of Irish version of Free Schools. 🙂
It's useless as a modern language, but it's no bad thing to have kids learning two languages from childhood anyway. There's some fantastic literature in Gaelic but then again, if we hadn't had English forced upon us, the rest of the world may never have had Joyce, Yeats, Heaney or Shaw.
I imagine, as you say, that Ireland would push to prevent any dropping of English as an official language of the EU. It would be disastrous for them.
I think the plan I referred to earlier was to create a "Euro-English" dialect that was better suited to the needs of the EU.
Beyond that I don't know anything about it. But you could imagine that as a starting point, lots of more obscure words could just be dropped, which would make life a lot easier to start with. Words like "inch" and "gallon" for example.
"Euro-English" dialect
It has existed for years in practice, my attempts at rephrasing letters when I was in the Netherlands fell on stony ground as "it wasn't English as it is used in Europe" - put me right in my place.
I think the plan I referred to earlier was to create a "Euro-English" dialect that was better suited to the needs of the EU.
Genius! Create a version of English with regular verbs, second-language-speaker-friendly vocabulary, nothing specifically British and inundate the Anglo-Saxon world with it via films, culture and media. The ultimate raising of a single digit. 😀
Edit: I tried to explain to a Swiss company with English as its official language that the "key account" was the customer and the "key account manager" was the person looking after the "key accounts". They persisted with "key account" as the job title. I worked out that if I translated word for word in to German and it made sense it was best left alone no matter how clumsy it sounded.
I think you will find the key account is where they deposit their illicit earnings.
Here's another question for you: My wife's family are essentially trapped inside the USA. They cannot leave for more than a holiday, unless they get really lucky. Is that a good thing, do you think?
This is what the Brexiteers wish to impose upon us and our kids, as the price for their "control".
We get England, Wales, and presumably (please correct me if I'm wrong) Ireland as the UK has a common travel arrangement with Ireland. And on the assumption Wangland is perceived as "the UK" so the agreement stands - not an easy case to make.
Side question - presumably the easiest route to EU residence for an English or Welsh person is to move to Ireland, is that right?
(Yes it looks like it: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Common_Travel_Area#British_citizens_in_Ireland)
oldnpastit - Member
A friend of a friend works for the EU and one of his projects was replacing English. His report was apparently recently dusted off....
Good example of our waning relevance, cheers Brexshit
Ssshhhhh! Don't tell the brexies
Mr Callinan also highlighted the existence of internal divisions on the British side just weeks out from the start of formal withdrawal negotiations with the EU, saying it was clear there was “no single, settled position” on Brexit in London.
“Even within the British government, there are very different views,” he said.
Well that shouldn't come as a huge surprise to many.
The British government is slowly realising Brexit is “an act of great self-harm” and that upcoming EU-UK negotiations must seek to limit the damage, the State’s top Brexit official has said.
Or alternatively, don't do it!
Crikey, I hope Callinan wasn't wearing a woolly jumper eh jambalaya?
I notice on that Irish Times pages Deloittes are right in there touting for business on the back of Brexit. So it's an opportunity for exactly the sort of people I imagined it would be.
Siracha sauce has gone up by 25p, I blame this on the fact that the pound had dropped so much against the $.
We are so much better off having regained our sovereignty 🙄
Talking of the Irish Times...
This was an interesting article too - from a unionist pondering the conundrum in front of unionism.
So it's an opportunity for exactly the sort of people I imagined it would be.
Jambalaya and his ilk no doubt.
Same type who think the below is good business no doubt.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-norfolk-39592454
or do you support the union (outside the EU, possibly diminished by the departure of Scotland, and with the rise of a new form of English nationalism which will have no interest in the Celtic fringes)
Oooff!
Says it all really. Business is the only important thing to some people.
We where discussing the need for immigrant employees
No, you were.
We where discussing the need for immigrant employees
Well, you were, obviously - that's sort of the point.
The questions asked, that you "answered", were…
1) How do we define necessary?2) Issuing visas based on existing demand excludes people who might come here to actually start businesses, doesn't it? Many EU migrants have done just that, and their successful economic activity creates growth. We'd lose that contribution.
3) Would visas be tied to jobs? So if the job ends you have to go home? People cannot build a life on those terms so you will lose a lot of skills and workers as they head elsewhere to settle. This will be economically damaging don't you think?
"Employees", especially those that will get through new beurocratic hoops, are but a subset of the people that currently move countries and contribute to the place they move to. People need not be a government sanctioned asset of a large company to be welcome here. Not yet, anyway. The visa scheme you so love might be good for large multinational companies looking to bring in a few key staff for short projects, but would keep away the people this country really needs, including, importantly, young families.
As for language English is the most useful language for global communication, nothing to do with the EU. Europeans learn English for travel and work. When two Europeans meet each other they are most likely to speak English as their common language - I see this all the time with my European friends and colleagues. None of that is going to change.
So, no attempt to address the limitations of visas compared to our current system we share with the other EEA countries?
When two Europeans meet each other they are most likely to speak English as their common language - I see this all the time with my European friends and colleagues. None of that is going to change.
German does very well especially up around the netherlands and denmark.
Things will change, many things will change - how is your Mandarin coming along?
jambalaya - Member
As for language English is the most useful language for global communication, nothing to do with the EU. Europeans learn English for travel and work. When two Europeans meet each other they are most likely to speak English as their common language - I see this all the time with my European friends and colleagues. None of that is going to change.
Jamba, my child, have you heard of Latin, and later French? Of course it will change. The only question is how fast. Like countries, languages are not forever, nor is their dominance
I imagine those left behind in the UK will speak an increasingly archaic form of English, one where many words fall out of use and are forgotten: trade, business, co-operation, avocado, and so-on.
But it will gain new words - perhaps words like "to leadsom", meaning to know of nothing but tea and cake, or "the Johnson", signifying a volume or region of pointless hot air, or "cameroning", meaning taking something and royally screwing it up.
Once outside of business circles I find a combination of French, German and Spanish gets me around continental Europe better than English. Asking directions on a crowded terrace in Belgium in French got me nowhere, nor English, when they realised I spoke German they went and got the cook from the kitchen to direct me. In SW France the adults usually speak better Spanish than English, kids have about the same level in both. My son left school with both a French Bac and German Arbitur, but no English qualification. The older generation in Spain speak French and the younger generation English and Italian. Italians often have good French or German in Border areas. The Swiss speak dialects but also speak one non-English language well if they have to. In Demark German seemed to be widely spoken and everyone of my generation I've met from the old Eastern Block speaks Russian pretty well. Edit: I forgot the Dutch who seem to speak everything, and love having someone to speak French with.
If you speak to people in English they'll reply in English but that doesn't mean it's their second language. Anyhow, have a look at [url= https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Langues_dans_l%27Union_europ%C3%A9enne ]Wiki [/url], English isn't as dominant as you might think.
Anyhow, have a look at Wiki , English isn't as dominant as you might think
Ok. 🙂
The most widely spoken language in the EU is English
😆
Your anti-English rhetoric is bordering on the silly.
love the detailed analysis there sbob...
Most spoken first language German
English the most spoken second
German and French both joint second as second languages, there is probably some stats to be done but looks like there is a good chance you could converse in French and German more easily, UK out of the EU and 2nd language choices may well change more as opportunities change.
mikewsmith - Memberlove the detailed analysis there sbob...
It's the most pertinent fact.
Unless you want to include Edukator's "three languages are better than one" revelation. 😆
It's the most pertinent fact.
lol like I said detailed analysis or picking the easiest and most obvious conclusion.
It tells me that French or german will get you a long way, if you don't speak English then it's not going to be first choice - especially as there will be a lot less English to deal with - like the Brexiters like to think why don't they speak our language...
Did I mention having taught English for years in Spain and France, sbob. And having my own language school for 10 years. People generally learned English because they were sent to us by their employers. When they were paying out of their own pockets Spanish was popular. I think Brexit will change attitudes with French, German and Spanish becoming increasingly attractive to employers.
I think the need for a passport to visit the UK will further increase the cost of school trips to the UK and be dissuasive for many. Exchnages no longer work because Brit parents consider all the French to be pedophiles. Paid host families are less and less hospitable (they often fall into the DM reading Brexit demographic and won't eat or talk with the kids). Add a load of administrative hassle and teachers will take their kids elsewhere.
Madame has organised a trip to England every year for the last 16 years. Next year there won't be one and teachers are debating whether to organise a ski trip, or a trip to Ireland or the Netherlands instead (go where one is welcome, eh). The "sections euro Anglais" in French schools have gone as of this academic year and the priority is now two foreign languages from earlier in a child's schooling. English is being diluted in favour of other languages.
Edukator - Reformed TrollDid I mention having taught English for years in Spain and France, sbob?
It's no wonder, what with English being the most widely spoken language in the EU.
It's pretty handy around the rest of the planet too.
How popular is it in China and Indonesia? How will English fare in the eu without the UK there? It will be off the table at discussions and not in regular business.
What language do the speak on Brazil?
Bet they will love being expected to speak English the the people begging for trade.
But it will gain new words - perhaps words like "to leadsom", meaning to know of nothing but tea and cake, or "the Johnson", signifying a volume or region of pointless hot air, or "cameroning", meaning taking something and royally screwing it up.
That. Plus the armies of unemployed will develop a rich variety of words to describe the different types of garbage that they spend their days sifting through in the hope of finding something worth selling on.
mikewsmith - MemberHow popular is it in China and Indonesia?
I've never been to China, but I've had employees go over. Business was conducted in English.
Haven't been to Indonesia either.
English use is quite widespread in central and southern America, from my experience.
I remember my other half finding it hilarious that all the Indians we spoke to thought I was German, though they asked me in English.
How will English fare in the eu without the UK there? It will be off the table at discussions and not in regular business.
It makes sense to use the most widely spoken language in the EU, but if people choose to use a less understood language then Spanish would be the logical choice I suppose.
It makes sense to use the most widely spoken language in the EU,
Once you remove the UK from the eu what is the most widely spoken language?
mikewsmith - MemberOnce you remove the UK from the eu what is the most widely spoken language?
Sorry, should have said Europe which we are not leaving, but is the answer still English?
Eating dinner so haven't done the maths.
You really think the widespread use of the English language within the EU and worldwide population is in any way tied to continued UK membership?
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https://www.babbel.com/en/magazine/the-10-most-spoken-languages-in-the-world
Top spoken language in the world of course, or is it just the one spoken loudly and slowly.
mikewsmith - MemberTop spoken language in the world of course, or is it just the one spoken loudly and slowly.
It's the [i]lingua franca of business, travel and international relations[/i], according to your source. 🙂
Once you remove the UK from the EU, the most widely spoken language in the EU is English.
I've worked pretty much in every country in Europe and a fair few across the globe.
Use of language is easy, for business use it's in the following order.
1 Local language
2 Language of mother company
3 English
For personal use, lose No. 2.
I learnt German because I was working a lot in Germany. But it's pretty much no use in any other countries except Germany, Austria and a bit of Switzerland. A bit like French; great for France, parts of Africa and the Caribbean and Montreal (etc).
But English works as a second language EVERYWHERE, always has and always will (well, in my life anyway).