[Closed] EU Referendum - are you in or out?

Interesting

Alfonso Dastis, the Spanish foreign minister, made it clear that the government would not block an independent Scotland’s EU hopes, although he stressed that Madrid would not welcome the disintegration of the UK.
He also said Edinburgh would have to apply for membership, a process fraught with uncertainty that is likely to take several years. But asked directly whether Spain would veto an independent Scotland joining the EU, Dastis said: “No, we wouldn’t.”

from meftys link

One reason may be that any argument which has something good to say about the nation state is met with a knee-jerk rejection.

Id say the opposite is true the entire brexit (and trump) campaign was built from a narrative that britain was broken, whipping up fear of immigrants etc, the Sun, telegraph Daily Mail and co are obsessed with running down the country, any excuse to spread some anti-EU hate

The failure is that of education, theres a reason that the majority of brexies had low qualifications...

and education is seen as the responsibility of the left (for some reason right wingers prefer preaching to teaching) so yes it is 'our' failure to an extent

The argument seems to be people are naturally xenophobic nationalists and the "cultural left" by trying to stop people being xenophobic nationalists only causes them to do this to a greater degree.

Not sure I'd call it very good.

An attempt to intellectualise a Daily Mail opinion piece really.

Spot on.

On a more obviously "let the remain side have a go at appealing to the lowest common denominator" was Hesseltine's little attempt the other week. Pathetic.

The Nick Clegg in Ebbw Vale programme was truly depressing. There was an awful lot of eulogising going on about the old steelworks, but I bet when the steelworks was fully operational the locals would have been bellyaching about pollution, blot on the landscape, health concerns etc.

I'm not saying this to be nasty, but what it shows is the extent that nostalgia for an era that never really existed influenced the older and more bitter people. Ahhh the 1950s. They were great weren't they? Rationing until the middle of the decade, brutal discipline in schools and killer fogs caused by incredible levels of pollution. It is an illusion that the Brexshit side preyed upon. Village greens with cricketers in impeccable whites, with impeccable white faces with a squadron of gleaming spitfires roaring overhead, piloted by smiling heroes with impeccably white scarves and impeccably white faces. It is like punk. It never happened to 99% of the population but there is a strong desire to 'get back' to those times.

killer fogs caused by incredible levels of pollution

I read that as 'killer frogs caused by incredible levels of pollution'. But you are right, I'm not so sure why 1950 is seen as a utopia by so many, guess basking in the warm glow of victory.

Dannyh not sure where you are from but I grew up in the valleys 9 miles south of Ebbw Vale and my mum was a nurse at the works. The works were so large that they had a hospital on site, it was demolished for the new train station, built with EU money. People would love the plant to come back, it gave jobs, pride, community and a social cohesion to the area. At the time Environmental concerns hadn't really been appreciated, the River Ebbw ran a different colour each day, and was dead as a door nail. I am sure there would be a lot of disquiet about pollution, Port Talbot has spent millions in addressing this problem. The Ebbw now is full of life which is something I always find amazing.

In contrast I would say there is no great want to reopen the mines.

I bet when the steelworks was fully operational the locals would have been bellyaching about pollution, blot on the landscape, health concerns etc.

I'll take that bet. The ambition of most of the South Wales people I worked with in the 80's was that their children would get a steady job in the nearest big plant/industrial concern to secure their future.

does anyone now think that Brexit will re-open and steelworks?!!?
The EU has a 75% anti-dumping tariff on chinese steel, the leavers favourite WTO option would offer no such protection

No Kimbers of course not 😆 my mum sadly has early dementia and last summer we went for a drive up the valley so she could see where she was born and the places of her youth and life. She was amazed that there is nothing of the works left at all. Well the main Office is still there and the south gate. She got quite upset, where do the people work now? was a question she asked.

The Nick Clegg in Ebbw Vale programme was truly depressing.

does anyone now think that Brexit will re-open and steelworks?!!?

Strongly recommend watching that piece.
No, the people asked didn't think leaving would get the steelworks reopened.
They voted because they wanted to protest about lost jobs, but were realistic about the vote solving anything.
They were angry about EU funds only making a "cosmetic" difference, rather than creating jobs.
Still weird that the anger isn't aimed more at those that could actually choose to employ people in the area (Welsh and UK governments and, most obviously, private companies).

[url= http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-39425373 ]Link to Newsnight piece[/url]

Edit: oh, and of course normal anti FoM and ECJ nonsense, despite the area being pretty much untouched by either.

I bet when the steelworks was fully operational the locals would have been bellyaching about pollution, blot on the landscape, health concerns etc.

The people there relied on the industry and very few wanted it to close as they knew the results for the community.

I do agree that everyone seems to think it was better in the past and many want us to return to both a time that never really existed and one that we cannot ever really get back. We cannot be isolationist[ I mean stand alone the RW still want trade] as we once were nor be the global player we once were and without our friends in a large bloc we are small fry able to be bullied by other more [ economically] powerful neighbours /partners/trade opportunities. Brexit will most likely show who has the real economic power in this negotiation and trying to trade security for trade is not likely to help using either the short or the long term

the breit process willd demonstarte this pretty well as they

Kelvin, so basically the welsh workers were ****s who knew their vote wouldnt do anything other than take jobs away from other people - but decided to vote leave out of spite.

If I ever meet one in London looking for a job, I am going to be mightily tempted to tell them to **** off back to where they came from.

The steel works were wanted, BUT, they were inefficient, too many staff etc. Why did the ship yards go bust, because they didn't move with the times, and others countries could build cheaper.

Are the Cornish tin mines, welsh coal mines, steel works et al coming back, doubtful. Labour costs and markets aren't helpful.

The UK has been screwed by the UK, not by Brussels or anywhere else. In some ways winning the second world war was a bad thing. There was no reality check, no realisation that the past was over and that a new world was ahead. There was no need to come to terms with the past. The UK suffers from a massive amnesia about how it was so powerful. The narrative that we only had HK on a 99year lease for example that Jamba mentioned. Reality is that the UK beat the Chinese in the opium wars and got HK as part of the settlement. A similar situation that applies to Gibraltar.

[img] [/img]

Could the UK ever compete with a Bangladeshi breakers yard?

I can remember a H&S chat with a staff member at the steel works, deaths were common, and he remembered going to tell a bloke wife that her husband wasn't coming home. A situation he never wanted to be in again.

That red tape, that is the red tape that keeps people alive in many industries. We can scrap it and back to the days of sillicosis, of industrial accidents.

But the deaths were always to someone else, that is why people remember the way they do.

If I ever meet one in London looking for a job, I am going to be mightily tempted to tell them to **** off back to where they came from.

I tried to make a point, but did it clumsily.

What I was really trying to get at was how easy it is for manipulative politicians to create an illusory golden era. Where [u]everything[/u] was somehow better. They then focus on "what has changed?" They give a nudge in the direction of immigration and liberal conspiracy and let the public run with it. Get the Daily Heil et al to provide a daily dose of malevolence and drag people further into a spiral of insularity and anger and Bob's your uncle.

It is the same in many areas. Not just what is the romanticised notion of heavy industry (steel, coal etc), but also hosiery, shoemaking etc. It wasn't a dig at the people of Ebbw Vale (I shouldn't have used the term 'bellyaching'), but an expression of how depressingly easy it is to manipulate people. Membership of the EU is one of the best ways this country can insulate itself from a race to the bottom with the more rapidly 'developing' world, but that was rejected. Largely on the basis of lies.

@danny nothing in the Leave campaign was about the past. It was all about a better future outside the EU. The Remain campaign was about the social and financial Aageddon that woukd befall us if we left whilst saying the EU was flawed and we should change it.

I'm not looking to "go back" to anything. I voted Leave so that the UK was no longer part of the EU's superstate plan for the future.

I voted Leave so that the UK was no longer part of the EU's superstate plan for the future.

An extra layer of tinfoil on your hat would have saved us all a lot of trouble.

I voted Leave so that the UK was no longer part of the EU's superstate plan for the future.

Tom W1987 you said on another thread you like drugs, I suggest you stop taking them before you comment on Welsh workers.

it might even had stopped him endlessly playing the race card and demonising immigrants [ not the jewish ones just the Muslamic ones] whilst telling us all how utterly wonderful it would all be in his Brave New World

All you needed was more optimism than facts
This has never been a challenge for Jambers on any issue 😉

Its true to say that Dave doing project fear did indeed backfire as by the end the only think not likely to be financially ruined was my kids piggy bank They overstated it massively but everyone knows we will be economically worse off afterwards except for the most unhinged of Brexiters who are powered by ignorance and hope.

When reality slaps them they will blame the EU and "remoaners" when the obvious seed they planted blooms into the obvious mess everyone predicted.

tell them to **** off back to where they came from.

Tom's answer to everything.

@ Jamby.

Nothing explicitly about a return to the past?

Nothing about making Britain great [u]again[/u]?

Sorry mate, to pretend that there wasn't an attempt to create a fantasy 'old days' to aspire to return to is just bullshit.

So the chap who bankrolled Brexit hasn't done with us yet

[url= https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/apr/02/arron-banks-interview-brexit-ukip-far-right-trump-putin-russia ]Arron Banks: ‘Brexit was a war. We won. There’s no turning back now’[/url]

What I was really trying to get at was how easy it is for manipulative politicians to create an illusory golden era. Where everything was somehow better. They then focus on "what has changed?"

You mean like how the lefties whinge on about Thatcher?

ninfan, Prince of Whataboutery

You mean like how the lefties whinge on about Thatcher?

Well....

She was a bit of a bitch you know..

DRJ, No, it's entirely relevant - where the hell do you think the Brexiteers learned their tactics?

The Brexit campaign didn't operate in a vacuum, it was Born out of New Labour failure to take everyone with them, it was born out of the lefts deliberate use of immigration to "rub the rights nose in diversity"

Start taking some responsibility yourselves, the collateral damage that the left caused in their campaign to destroy the right was entirely to blame for Brexit.

Funny, I thought Brexit was a far-right thing.

Funny, I thought Brexit was a far-right thing.

You heard it on the night - "the council estates have voted"

You mean like how the lefties whinge on about Thatcher?

Yawn you boring oaf

DRJ, No, it's entirely relevant - where the hell do you think the Brexiteers learned their tactics?

Yes, of course, that makes perfect sense now you put it like that. Brexit is the fault of the Labour party and nothing to do with the ruling Tories. Silly of me not to realise before.

You heard it on the night - "the council estates have voted"

As you will see here:
[url= http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/eu-referendum-result-7-graphs-that-explain-how-brexit-won-eu-explained-a7101676.html ]7 graphs that explain how Brexit won[/url]
Leave was largely right wing.

You are Emily Thornberry, and I claim my £5

They're not left wing homes.

You are Emily Thornberry, and I claim my £5

Tom's answer to everything.

A few hundred pages back, you lot were proclaiming you'd vote against the interests of the demographic that was mostly responsible for Brexit. 😆

That's the world that Brexit ushered in, one in which you look out for your own clan. My clan is London and the southern tech hubs - with their diverse adaptable populations and their equally diverse economies. 😆 😈

I wouldn't actually do that, but it will tickle me no end if Northerners and the Welsh have to start emigrating to London after Brexit.

You know those George Crosses flying on council estates? They're not left wing homes.

But of course, they're not far right either - oh no, they are 'patriotic'. 🙄

Insularity, xenophobia and (to a lesser extent, but still importantly) racism played pivotal roles in the campaign. The posters that were used were absolutely disgraceful. What was even more disgraceful was that they 'worked'.

Again, there are sweeping generalizations flying around here, and it is very easy to get drawn into the game, but ask yourself this question and answer honestly.

What reception do you think a couple of British born Hindu chaps would get in one of those Council estate boozers if they went in and ordered a pint?

You know those George Crosses flying on council estates? They're not left wing homes.

But of course, they're not far right either - oh no, they are 'patriotic'.

My clan is London

[img] [/img]

all this is my clan is seems to be most of the problem...

It is.

But they won't register it as a problem until they've experienced it themselves.

I'll add a more specific pub.

What reaction do you think a British born Hindu would get in the pub in this story?

[url] http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-39470487 [/url]

These substantial pockets of violent xenophobia and racism exist, folks. There will also be plenty of golf club bars where wheezing old farts will be saying stuff like "they should have separate buses in the first place".

It is an undercurrent that has been shamelessly tapped into by the Brexies.

We could start a new type of hate?

Could we use 'Leaver' or similar terms as an insult to offend half the voting public perhaps.. now there's a thought!

EDIT: Damn beaten to it a few hundred pages ago.

😳 complaining about hate while spreading hate 😳

These substantial pockets of violent xenophobia and racism exist, folks. There will also be plenty of golf club bars where wheezing old farts will be saying stuff like "they should have separate buses in the first place".

It is an undercurrent that has been shamelessly tapped into by the Brexies.

If it was that simple, then why did Two thirds of those describing themselves as Asian vote to remain, as did three quarters of black voters, but Asian communities in Bradford and Slough vote overwhelmingly to leave

(White voters voted to leave the EU by 53% to 47%)

Edit: [i]A number of jurisdictions with large South Asian populations delivered Leave votes, including Luton (56.5% Leave), Hillingdon (56.4% Leave), Slough (54.3% Leave) and Bradford (54.2% Leave). All have South Asian populations of 25% and above. It’s not unreasonable to think that such Leave votes could not have been delivered without a significant number of Asian voters opting for Brexit.

And more recently released ward-level data from the West London boroughs of Ealing and Hounslow provides strong support for the idea that Asian voters were more inclined towards Leave than the polls suggested. In these two multi-ethnic boroughs, non-white ethnicity was associated with voting Leave, defying the wider national trend.[/i]

Source, LSE http://blogs.lse.ac.uk/brexit/2017/02/20/the-british-asian-vote-for-brexit-contains-a-few-surprises/

Because the lot up in Bradford don't like Eastern European immigrants as they assume they are racist.

The lot in London have learnt to get on with them as they are actually exposed to European immigration.

As is always the case with prejudice, I work for an Indian company who are very pro Brexit because they think that it means one they - they'll be able to abuse the Tier 2 system again and bring in their lower castes from their provinces, keeping it Indian, in the family/province and cheap. It buys votes back home.