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Now then, are we still doomed? Is the sky going to fall in on our heads?
Lets have it right. those folk from Bradford vote leave because they really wanted an Independence for Yorkshire referendum. It nowt to do with the EU they want the right to be tight in a free Yorkshire.
You've got to admire perseverance
They were angry about EU funds only making a "cosmetic" difference, rather than creating jobs.
I watched that Ebbw Vale thing too. The commenters didn't seem to understand that for any government to invest in your area you need a strong economy. The EU gave us a strong economic boost.
I think almost everyone in this debate is building arguments around the EU to rationalise their existing sentiments.
A lot of Asian voters voted leave in the hope it would open uk the UK for their families and friends rather than Eastern Europeans. No more complicated than that and in general as a community they value EU citizenship less than other folks.
It is interesting that the Indian government would only consider a trade deal in there was FOM - now that would send the kippers nuts.
Onwards and upwards, the world awaits
And a war with Spain. Oh joy!
It is interesting that the Indian government would only consider a trade deal in there was FOM - now that would send the kippers nuts.
It would, they want to carpet bag the UK like they did with Sri Lanka and the Tamils - partly out of revenge and partly to make money.
And now we don't have the umbrella of the EU to protect us.
Brexit was born out of the EU being totally sh.t
Just what I said. You only think it's shit because you already don't trust those foreigners and don't want them messing in YOUR country. You see them as different.
Personally I love feeling close to my neighbours and I love the fact that my offices are full of people from all over Europe who feel at home here.
What's the Spanish phrase? Mi casa es su casa.
Lobbing cruise missiles over Gibraltar would have me in hysterics and glued to the tv though - Chris Morris couldn't have made this shit up. I was jokingly saying the EU should try to take Gibraltar a few dozen pages back.
[url= https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/apr/02/eu-will-not-go-soft-on-gibraltar-brexit-talks-diplomats-say-spain ]https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/apr/02/eu-will-not-go-soft-on-gibraltar-brexit-talks-diplomats-say-spain[/url]
going really well then!
It is interesting that the Indian government would only consider a trade deal in there was FOM - now that would send the kippers nuts.
Similar sentiments to those expressed by Australia i seem to remember.
"I love the fact that my offices are full of people from all over Europe who feel at home here."
How parochial. I love the fact that my offices are full of people from all over the world who feel at home here.
This a good time for remainers.
Nine months of phoney war with the Brexies coming to an end.
You can't attack smoke and mirrors and that was all the Brexies put up the whole way along.
Until now. Now, since A50 as been triggered, concrete things will need to happen. And those will crystallise some bad things, possibly some good things, but real hard things that can be supported or attacked.
Finally we get to do something about this insanity.
I'm not looking to "go back" to anything. I voted Leave so that the UK was no longer part of the EU's superstate plan for the future.
Maybe you're not but I think (faux) nostalgia informed significantly one of the cohorts that voted leave. The leave vote was not homogenous. (Luckily that also means it's divisible).
I don't remember that Gibraltar was one of May's Red Lines, or did I miss that one?
FFS it's a negotiation and like any negotiation at some point EVERYTHING will come on to the table.
Oh, sorry I forgot, "it's having cake and eating it"...
Pretty obvious that trying to apply pressure via a thinly veiled threat to Gilbralter was going to backfire. By all means give Spain a veto as they have done and see where that gets them.
Slightly ironic Spain's position given they have two port enclaves in Morocco.
The EU will eat a lot of humble pie if UK and/or US block any Greek refinancing by the IMF.
As per the press and the article I linked to EU are highly dependent upon British Security Intelligence. Dangerous games they are playing.
^^It's all the EU's fault.
Today the Brexit press is fapping itself into a frenzy over blue passports. I'm sure imperial measurements were mentioned somewhere as well.
#lookingforward
Oh for the love of God shut up, May started escalating this rubbish with her threat about security.
Oh for the love of God shut up, May started escalating this rubbish with her threat about security.
This ^^^^^^
It's quite revealing that someone would contemplate for one moment the idea of considering security issues as part of a "deal" - using EU citizens as bargaining chips " is already deplorable enough.
Guys, Jamba is trying to keep the discussion to smoke and mirrors at a time when the Brexies actually have to start building something concrete. That will be new territory for them and territory they are singularly ill equiped to tackle.
Ignore his spin - stick to the tangible (of which admittedly there is very little).
When I end up in the "other nationalities" queue with my blue passport, I will feel pretty bloody humiliated. The country that rejected cooperation and solidarity for nationalism.
That's now how I think and it's not how I want my country to think.
So desperately hoping the associate membership thing happens.
It occurred to me that some companies might pay for or require certain employees to get this if it goes ahead. Would make cross border work way easier.
Yep, let me know how much to pay to keep my purple passport and I'll gladly pay
Leave was largely right wing.
In Sunderland and Stoke and and and and ....
The above statement is classic Labour Party denial and helps to explain why Remain lost and Labour are in free fall. Low/unskilled workers have most to lose from uncontrolled migration. Someone from Eastern Europe is highly unlikely to take my job and in any case a suitable candidate would get a work visa under any controlled system. So In/Out makes zero difference to me personally from a employment perspective
@igm there is going to be nothung concrete for ages just a steller amount of [b]Posium Posturing[/b]. The French (April/May) and German (October) elections will see to that. Candidates will be trying to out do each other on toughness. Meanwhile July is next big Greek debt payment.
For once I agree with Jamba.
The old Left/Right labels are looking pretty tired these days anyway, but I don't think Brexit can really be painted as a right-wing thing. Tories and Labour were both split over it.
Anyway enough raking over why Remain lost. BBC2 Turkey.
God this fake sentmental claptrap about what have we become is irritating. Alot of people seem to be quite happy to justify anything the EU says because we deserve it because we voted against it - the EU is not some happy clappy church where everyone seeks to do good. Yet when we merely point out what we bring to the party, it is morally reprehensible and the country is going to the dogs - talk about losing any sense of perspective. Fortunately the politicians who will actually work things out are no longer in need of a pram so projectiles will not be deprammed.
I do not understand any of that mefty 🙂
slowoldman - Member
Leave was largely right wing.
If after all these years you (generally speaking those opposing not about you) still think about right wing whatever wing then you don't get it and probably will never forever. It has never been about that from the beginning. 😆
talk about losing any sense of perspective.
🙂
Indeed.
The above statement is classic Labour Party denial
but I don't think Brexit can really be painted as a right-wing thing.
If after all these years you (generally speaking those opposing not about you) still think about right wing whatever wing then you don't get it and probably will never forever
So what about that graph in the link I posted?
Brexies actually have to start building something concrete
they will just hire some consultants to figure this out
I believe I read somewhere this is seriously what they are doing and it's not just the passport tender, seems they are looking for consultants to figure out how the ship will sail
DrJ - MemberIt's quite revealing that someone would contemplate for one moment the idea of considering security issues as part of a "deal"
It is incredible isn't it. Leaving aside the crassness of it, it's incredibly revealing on the mindset- security cooperation is something we give to other people apparently, and they think we can demand consideration of trade deals in return. You know what we actually get in return for security cooperation? [i]Security cooperation[/i]. It's not our gift to europe, it's something we do because it's a damn good idea and everyone benefits, including us.
That an using the EU citizens here as bargaining chips. It does show clearly how poor the bargaining position is tho
Security cooperation. It's not our gift to europe, it's something we do because it's a damn good idea and everyone benefits, including us.
Oh but apparently it's what we are uniquely brilliant at.
As brexit was about a rejection of social democracy and im pretty sure that the likes of IBS and Rees-Mogg et al aren't democratic socialists then I don't see it as anything other than a lurch to the hard right.
Problem solved.
https://www.amazon.co.uk/Passport-European-Protector-Leather-Lizzy-/dp/B00NXY7CGK/
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It does seem weird to me though that the leavers would want a passport in blue and gold...
@Nipper sadly STW's most consistent left wing poster @ernie_lynch was a Leave supporter but can't be bothered with this thread. As such we are missing his input.
He posted Left Leave's rationale and it matched the dialogue from Tony Benn and Corbyn (who deleted all his anti-EU blog posts prior to the Referendum). Also rember Michael Foot fought an election on a Manifesto Pledge to take the UK out of the EEC.
Yep as said many times it's not left vs right. Some of the far left stuff was as laughable as UKIP, just praying for the death of the tory party while not actually proposing anything that would help people. The prospects for the poor and uneducated are much worse though. If you were struggling to find work during very low unemployment then nothing proposed so far will fix that.
The EU will be blamed, accused of and made the scapegoat for many more years of failing UK governments.
The latest sabre rattling over Gibraltar certainly shows the idiots we have let out recently, turns out everything on the table includes the military.
Jamba - I agree that nothing concrete has arrived yet, nor will it for a good while yet, what I am suggesting is that the Brexy campaign was smoke and mirrors from day one and there is no point in arguing with it. I know you would rather we kept arguing over every piece of fiction you post, but the best way to keep the Brexies in their place is not to argue. They will destroy themselves because fundamentally they have too many disparate views, too little common ground.
And you know that. The only thing that keeps the Brexy view together is a common enemy - keep the argument going and you can maintain the enemy.
Someone suggested the Brexies learnt their tactics from new labour - rubbish it was Orwell's 1984
I think you'll find the use of "a common enemy" was not a George Orwell construct. Try a bit of history for examples. Yorkshire has quite correctly been at the forefront of this concept for hundreds of years (with good reason).
Now that Scotlandshire has Spanish support for independent membership of the EU. It cannot be long before pressure will be applied to the Westminster overlord to grant Yorkshire its own independence. Can't see Gods country in the EU though unless its cheap.
@mefty - good post that, possible for to sensible for some.
@mt how do you know when the page turns so you have to come back and post the same thing? 😉
@mikesmith, I like to drop in now and again to keep up with the knowledgeable and reasoned arguments of both sides of the debate. I then like to add my own thoughts on the subject, I think they show about as much sense as all the others on here.
[I]The old Left/Right labels are looking pretty tired these days anyway, but I don't think Brexit can really be painted as a right-wing thing. Tories and Labour were both split over it.[/I]
I've always voted left (of centre) but it doesn't mean I agree with everything that is 'left', the same way I don't disagree with everything 'right'.
But fundamentally I'm a socialist/liberal/democrat who believes that Govt is there to serve it's people and help them to a better life, and for me Leave isn't that.
Leave IMO will end up with a less equal country, and listen to the promoters of Leave (including Jamba on here), this is what we will get.