[Closed] EU Referendum - are you in or out?

And perhaps he would like to live in a liberal democracy?

The Canadians are all xenophobic's as they have full border control and no likelihood of ever agreeing Freedom of Movement with anyone. I'd also wager welfare, social care, state health provision and workers rights are all far weaker than in the UK.

"And perhaps he would like to live in a liberal democracy?"

Why not? Canada's ace.

It's just not in the EU.

if you love the EU so much, go and live there

Yeah, well I used to live there till you ****ed it up.

The referendum result showed a near 50/50 divide so I would have hoped for government policy to reflect that in some way.

@kimbers don't take this the wrong way but .. IMO you are interested in Canada as they speak English. This great EU Freedom of Movement "benefit" is useless to most of us as we in the UK are hopeless at languages (me included, barely passed my German and my French is poor). As we are quite rightly "poking you in the ribs about" you love the EU so much you are moving 3000 miles away 🙂 Canada is also on the US's doorstep and if you get citizenship getting into the US is much easier with all the fabulous study and work opportunities that provides.

Make no mistake I like Canada, my oarents applied for immigration there in the 1970's - we didn't go - and I was speaking with a number of fellow Brits who have lived there 40-50 years at my friends wedding last week.

The Canadians are all xenophobic's as they have full border control and no likelihood of ever agreeing Freedom of Movement with anyone. I'd also wager welfare, social care, state health provision and workers rights are all far weaker than in the UK.

Sounds right up your street, when do you leave?

Jamba - all borders should come down, all trade should be free and all countries should be consigned to our primitive history. Discuss.
Not sure what Britain as a country (as opposed to a set of administrative units) has ever done for me - or anyone else

Graham its about the stagnant growth in the EU and our inability to forge bilateral trade deals with fast growth markets in Asia for example.

I get that, but personally I think we'd get stronger trade deals with those Asian markets as a member of 28 country trade block with a combined population of ~510 million.

I think that gave us more to negotiate with, even if the need for consensus meant the deals take longer (which I don't think is necessarily a bad thing either given things like TTIP).

Red tape is a secondary issue although a significant one.

What have you got against newts? 😉

So you agree with IDS [i]et al[/i] that the platitudes about adopting current EU law into UK law should be forgotten and we should have a cull on all those pesky regulations that impact profits (like the ones protecting worker's rights, the environment, equality etc)?

So jamba - you don't actually know but will wager?

Healthcare in Canada for example is almost all free at the point of use and an entitlement for all citizens regardless of ability to pay..

outofbreath - Member
"And perhaps he would like to live in a liberal democracy?"

Why not? Canada's ace.

It's just not in the EU.

sighhhhh

despite you continually misrepresenting my position (a spiffing example of a brexie tactic)

I have said that Im considering my options, I also said scotland was on interest, assuming they can stay within the EU

I am presently moving nowhere

Depending on how incompetent the brexies running the show are maybe we'd move to Canada- never been my wife loved it, I have family there, good mtbing!-
USA- lived there for a while liked it a lot, too much Trump
Norway, wife worked there for a while, lovely place, a lot of benefits of the EU
Spain, its great, science funding is ok, barcelona has one of the best located genome research centres Ive ever visited- right on the beach! Wife speaks spanish so that helps
Germany, been quite a bit speak enough german to get by, wifes not keen, good science funding, not enough coastline tho!
France, got quite a few collaborators there, mixed bag on funding, alps are tempting
NZ/Aus, maybe, gt a few friends in both, very good friend in NZ, not sure tho
Britain, speak the language, got family here, Science funding (my industry) is about to take a big brexit hit, economically seems determined to shoot itself in the foot, the politics of ignorance seems to be ascendant..

Eldest child is 6 so potentially big upheaval for them, ultimately would like to make sure they have the brightest future, in or out of the EU
We are lucky that we have the qualifications and enough capital that we have the options open to us

as I have repeatedly said Im keeping my options open, I love britain, sadly my country seems to be intent on self harm and racing to the bottom

The referendum result showed a near 50/50 divide so I would have hoped for government policy to reflect that in some way.

Spot on.

Instead we get a govt behaving as if the referendum was 99-1, with all 99 being Farage.

The result was 16 to 17. Put 33 people in a room, split them, and one gets the casting vote. Their decision is implemented on all, in the hardest possible scenario.

Democracy my ****. In a democracy, everyone's view matters.

TJ. Yup. I am pretty confident.

Graham look at the listbof EU trade deals, link on here manyboages back. They have agreed deals with just about no one of any size. The EU is a [b]protectionist[/b] organisation. Its about blocking external trade and competition.

@matt - the Government tried to be more in the middle ground. The Referendum made clear we wanted Freedom of Movement to end, the EU made it clear thats non-negotaible with regard to "single market" access. As such we are trying to negotiate the best compromise. However if the EU continues to buggar about, stalling and coming up with ludicrous invented "bills" then we should just go and play very hard ball (imo)

The Referendum made clear we wanted Freedom of Movement to end

How do you figure that?

All countries, all trade deals and ultimately all clubs are essentially protectionist Jamba.

The UK willl be protectionist too when and if it leaves the EU - it'll just have less muscle to do it effectively.

"despite you continually misrepresenting my position"

I genuinely don't think I have, you asked me to post your exact words, and I did.

Moly - Jamba had a [i]special [/i]ballot paper

The UK willl be protectionist too when and if it leaves the EU

Yes. Seems like many leave voters want to increase UK protectionism. And many don't. It's going to be amusing, except for all the economic hardship.

I'll just leave this here - [url= http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-39441035 ]day 1[/url]

"The referendum result showed a near 50/50 divide"

Yeah, Cam was gonna resign anyway, he should have said "This is inconclusive, I can't reasonably do what it asks and therefore I resign. Sorry."

But then it's not just the one party is it? The opposition also take the view that 52/48 is good enough.

[url= https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2017/mar/30/uk-games-companies-leaving-brexit-vote-eu-workers ]40% of Games Companies are considering relocation[/url]

Jamba - then lets see something concrete - you said the EU held us back. Lets hear some examples

The Referendum made clear we wanted Freedom of Movement to end

No it didn't. There were many and varied reasons people voted leave.

you claim I dont give a toss about my kids EU citizenship because ive looked at moving to Canada

I pointed out that im looking at it as an option
for the next 2 years moving within the EU will remain relatively easy for us,
other countries require more bureaucracy and red tape (which sadly will soon be our future in europe too) hence why I said we looked at canada, partly out of curiosity..

I care very much that my kids are have the chance to grow up in a forward looking, open, tolerant part of the world

Being british and part of the EU used to seem like a good way to ensure that.
the hatefilled referendum campaign and the ongoing brexishambles have shown that might not be the case

To be fair Klunk, I suspect multinationals consider that sort of thing everyday anyway.
It's the percentage that go from consider to are relocating that matters.

40% of Games Companies are considering relocation

and

"Hi-tech financial firms flee UK amid doubts over Brexit
Leading ‘fintech’ player says ‘the exodus is beginning’ as members of £6bn industry start seeking other bases in Europe "

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/feb/25/brexit-fintech-exodus-begins-london-eu-luxembourg

The Referendum made clear we wanted Freedom of Movement to end

How do you figure that?

[img] [/img]
[img] [/img]
[img] [/img]

That seems a fairly clear element of the campaign.

Another thought, the rights for citizens is going to get messy. Really messy.
Speculation is there will be no cut off date on rights all the way up to the actual Brexit date.
And both sides say the want to preserve citizens rights after Brexit.
This is the messy bit now.
So if I move to (say) France for a week or two straddling the Brexit date, tell my bank and work I'm now in France (my director is awaiting his Irish passport so stunts will be appreciated) file the relevant paperwork (bound to be some) with the local mayor in France then let them know I'm taking an extended holiday in the UK - what's going to stop me?
If the two principles above are held to be true, vey little. But folk ain't going to stand for that (actually pick the right mayor in France and they might well) so the principles will be abandoned at some point and the shouting will begin.

its true, the daily mail , telegraph, sun etc, etc have spent years whipping up fear and spreading lies about immigrants, it was something the brexiters were very happy to capitalise on throughout the campaign

The Referendum made clear we wanted Freedom of Movement to end

No it didn't. There were many and varied reasons people voted leave.

Out and out racism by some Leavers like UKIP, and the tacit endorsement of that racism by the rest of the leavers with their happiness to go along with it (or, at the very best, their refusal to condemn it) were a huge element in the result.

To deny that is frankly laughable

"you claim I dont give a toss about my kids EU citizenship because ive looked at moving to Canada"

Unfortunate and unhelpful turn of phrase I used, but yes, I think that being in the EU cannot be *that* important to you if you're considering emigrating to a non-EU country, when there are 27 EU countries you could move to with any climate/landscape you could ever wish for.

...and you also mention Spain as a possibility, which is being crippled by the Euro to the point it might well have to be the next country to leave the EU if the EU won't let then leave the EZ which they're obliged to be in by the Treaty of Maastricht(sp?).

So yeah, sorry about the tone, not sure why I chose those words, but the point is not misrepresenting you at all, being in the EU isn't a deal breaker to you.

Binners he said "we" - not "some of us".

Plenty of people voted leave because of the bus and other reasons. Some just as an anti-London protest.

If another country leaves, things will get REALLY interesting.

And they know that, so I think they will bend over backwards to keep Spain and everyone else in.

Part of me is thinking that might be good if more people leave, cos then they might be forced to scrap it and start again with something else, to which we can join up again.

The end of the euro might not be a bad thing, it is one of the less welome parts of Europe, but the EU is overall brilliant and everyone but the racists and xenophobes (and people with specific chips on their shoulders) will miss it when it's gone from these shores.

That seems a fairly clear element of the campaign.

Out and out racism by some Leavers like UKIP, and the tacit endorsement of that racism by the rest of the leavers with their happiness to go along with it (or, at the very best, their refusal to condemn it) were a huge element in the result.

its true, the daily mail , telegraph, sun etc, etc have spent years whipping up fear and spreading lies about immigrants

Enough people voted leave due to the NHS-bus for the leave campaign director to think they may not have won without it.

The EU is a protectionist organisation. Its about blocking external trade and competition.

It's a trade block. Part of its job is protectionism, no?
i.e. If it gave tariff free access to the whole world then what would be the point of the block?

Don't forget that we benefit(ed) from that protection too, e.g. the non-EU tariffs on lamb/mutton prices that keep our sheep industry viable.

The Referendum made clear we wanted Freedom of Movement to end

Nothing on the ballot paper mentioned Freedom of Movement. Several of my Brexit friends gave other reasons for wanting out (sovereignty, trade deals, self determination etc) and said they would be sorry to lose FOM.

So no, I don't think you can claim that at all.

It was clearly an element of the campaign and no doubt a motivating factor in [i]some[/i] of Leave votes, but not [i]all[/i] of them.

For Erasmus, Switzerland is a useful case study. Used to be an Erasmus member, got unceremoniously kicked out because they don't allow free movement, that's a proven red line. As damage limitation they built a custom alternative called SEMP which does some of the same things, less well, but needed a ton of extra work and spending and gives access to far less institutions- for which the Swiss have to pay the costs both for their students going abroad, and for all exchange students travelling to Switzerland.

This all caused a reported 40% fall in exchange students to and from Switzerland, and sadly destroyed a lot of students' plans and some longstanding institutional relationships, it was massively disruptive. This could possibly go better for us since it was a cliff-edge for them, but equally we might just keep repeating "erasmus means erasmus" and have it be a total mismanaged disaster.

One key difference often overlooked is that they had been a full Erasmus member for only a couple of years and so didn't have it as inbuilt or as many exchange partnerships in place as the UK does after 30. For us it's both more integrated and more valuable.

What does that mean in practice? Basically, while the SEMP program is good, it's not quite as good at anything as Erasmus. After all the key point of Erasmus is commonality and simplicity. It doesn't usually offer enough to make it worth the extra trouble of setting up new partnerships with a Swiss institution instead of an EU one, in fact we've broken off several. And there's equally little reason for our students to deal with the extra trouble and limitations of going there instead of an Erasmus partner.

In theory you can still do study abroad in Switzerland. I say in theory because since they left, nobody's done an exchange there because it's as much or more hassle as doing it in the States, Australia or Canada, offers far less choice, and has no real benefits unless you really like fondue. And if you want to stay closer to home, you probably do Erasmus, because why would you not? Again more choice, and less hassle, and no reason not to.

Going the other way is important too- and we do have a bit of an advantage over the swiss because of the language. But not over Australia, Canada and the States, or Maastricht or other English language european institutions, all of which are more welcoming to foreign students already, never mind after Brexit.

And of course, Erasmus isn't just about exchange students- we send staff abroad on erasmus exchanges, there are erasmus traineeships and internships, and as far as I know the Swiss have lost it all.

(there [i]is[/i] one marginal benefit- people who don't know anything about it are sometimes more impressed by being a SEMP scholar than an Erasmus scholar, because Erasmus has a bit of a soft gap yah rep whereas nobody knows what SEMP is outside of the trade)

Basically, this all sucks for the Swiss and it will suck similarly for us. Some might consider this a price worth paying, and fair enough if you do, but anyone that claims there's no price and no damage is lying to you, and it's kids that'll pay that price.

Eldest child is 6 so potentially big upheaval for them

My parents looked at emigrating to Germany about 50 years ago (mum was German) but held back because of us kids. I've never been convinced it was the right decision.

The EU is a protectionist organisation. Its about blocking external trade and competition.

It's about regulating rather than blocking. I buy guitar parts from Warmoth in the US and pay the import duty with a smile - they respect the rules so the value of the goods is accurately stated in the paperwork. I used to import stuff for my business, pay the duty, no problem. However, I feel very miffed when a Hong Kong company sends me something in a white envelope and there's nothing at all to pay when it arrives.

tjagain - Member

It really does amuse me how far detached from reality the leavers are. I loved Merkels slap down of May over trade deals.

May has almost no bargaining chips here. The EU can survive without the UK quite easily and playing hardball is in many ways to the EUs advantage

Come on you leavers - give me one reason why the EU will give the UK any concessions?

I'm not a leaver (should probably get that tattooed) but you are making the mistake once more of viewing the EU as one entity, which it is not (yet).
We do not trade with the EU.
We trade with individual member states, or businesses within those member states.
You can dilute the effect that a loss of trade would have by dividing it by all the EU member states if it suits your argument, but it is false to do so.
As an example, if an unfavourable trade deal resulted in us buying fewer German cars (the UK is Germany's biggest customer of car exports), who would suck up the loss of trade and jobs? The EU?
Portugal or the Czech Republic aren't going to suddenly compensate Germany for their loss.
It would be Germany alone that would suffer, and it would be political suicide for a German politician to facilitate such a situation.

Of course, this has been pointed out before, but then there are far more posters willing to ignore than a willing to repost.

🙂

Just to pick one German car manufacturer yes sbob I would expect Portugal and the Czech Republic to take some of the hit - see below.

Volkswagen has factories in many parts of the world, manufacturing or assembling vehicles for local markets. In addition to plants in Germany, Volkswagen has manufacturing or assembly facilities in Mexico, the US, Slovakia, China, India, Indonesia, Russia, Malaysia, Brazil, Argentina, Portugal, Spain, Poland, the Czech Republic, Bosnia and Herzegovina, and South Africa. In 2011, Volkswagen was named in the top 25 largest companies in the world by the Forbes Global 2000

Kids are dependent, teenagers are independent, but grown ups are interdependent. The UK is throwing a teenage strop.

Germany (and to a slightly lesser extent, France) will find a balance between loss of exports due to tariffs and a further loss of stability to the EU. They'll tell the rest of the EU what has to be done. A few ministers will stamp feet but essentially, a balance will be found that both parties will go back to their people and describe as a "they need us more than we need them" win. Their people will suck it up and thump a few tubs. The rest of the EU will (more or less) do as it's told. As thm is fond of saying (and I agree with him on this one), a deal will be struck - it won't be better than the current deal for either party but it won't be as one sided as pessimists or optimists believe.

I've read several times that the big German car firms will prioritise EU integrity over exports to the UK.

& it's not like their sales are going to stop, even if they take a hit.