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We are going to have to increase the number of skilled professionals by providing training here. No longer will we be able to strip mine poorer countries for them.
Where are the workers coming from? The UK currently has c5% unemployment, technology can replace some jobs, but, you can't make anyone into a brain surgeon, training is not the only issue, some people are more motivated, some are more intelligent.
There is also the issue that educational costs have rocketed, pricing out many
Next move onto the bit of a mess that is the NHS, it is going to take a decade to train a consultant, almost as long for nurses. So what do you propose today?
Stark was so rude and arrogant this morning. A genuinely nasty man it seems.
Stark was so rude and arrogant this morning. A genuinely nasty man it seems.
Agreed. A real paradox of a man.
Somehow I find him a bit of an entertaining side-show.
mrmo - Member
...Next move onto the bit of a mess that is the NHS, it is going to take a decade to train a consultant, almost as long for nurses. So what do you propose today?
Part of the adaptation process. It's not going to happen overnight that's for sure, hence my description of it being like the aftermath of a war, perhaps one we lost.
"Where are the workers coming from?"
...anywhere. Nobody is advocating becoming North Korea.
Next move onto the bit of a mess that is the NHS, it is going to take a decade to train a consultant, almost as long for nurses.
I think we're going to see a pretty massive shortfall in nurses, regardless of the actual final Brexit terms:
Most migrants into the UK are from non-EU countries.
but it is still not as easy for non-EU migrants to get into the UK - currently there is discrimination in favor of the EU countries, so that in itself is rascist...
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Postman Tim.
They might come back. If our currency and living standards fall low enough, menial labour in the UK will become competitive again.
Nicely sums up the STW attitude, describing steelworkers as "menial labour".
Note which man looks apprehensive, and which one is smiling
[quote=binners said]Note which man looks apprehensive, and which one is smiling
Timbo looks decidedly more happy than the Donald.
I think we're going to see a pretty massive shortfall in nurses, regardless of the actual final Brexit terms:
Less EU nurses? Not really a problem for those of us who don't mind nurses with slightly different skins tones to ourselves.
How do you manage to turn the lack of EU nurses into some dig with racist connotations?
Less EU nurses? Not really a problem for those of us who don't mind nurses with slightly different skins tones to ourselves.
I don't mind different skin tones either - but we have to find a way to convince an additional 8,000+ qualified nurses to come here from those countries while the pound is still in the gutter.
I reckon robotics is likely to really take off now.
In twenty years time robots will do everything that eu workers used to do.
Those in jobs will live like kings and retire at fifty. Those without will live in an economic wasteland of deprivation and Duncan-Smitheque welfare rules.
Sbob - didn't have to give up a job. I'm guiding the company I work in in the direction of helping. Lucky enough to be senior enough and have enough latitude to do that sort of thing. You'd think, say, Jamba might be in a similar (or better) situation where he could guide his company into sorting out the mess. Assisting DIT that sort of thing.
outofbreath - Member
Are non-EU countries unwelcoming?
Can't say I've ever found that.
Have you ever stood in immigration at a New York airport. Unwelcoming?
Strangely in Phoenix, Denver or Chicago they're sweetness and light.
binners - MemberNote which man looks apprehensive, and which one is smiling
And note that in this other picture, there is a third party, if you look really closely:
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😆
we have to find a way to convince an additional 8,000+ qualified nurses to come here from those countries while the pound is still in the gutter.
Your point was very specific to EU nurses, it's wasn't about generally attracting less workers due to low £.
If low £ is your problem then that's trickier since I assume the low £ is considered desirable by some to encourage exports.
We'll have to decide what we want. More exports going out or more cheap stuff (including labour) coming in.
Have you ever stood in immigration at a New York airport.
You've got me there, I was hoping nobody was going to bring the USA up.
Happy to help OOB 😉
To be fair their job is to assess you not to be welcoming and I don't know what UK immigration is like with non-EU (shortly to be non-UK) national. Probably unwelcoming.
vile racist as wellmatt_outandabout - MemberStark was so rude and arrogant this morning. A genuinely nasty man it seems.
For amusement purposes only. The Yorkshire Evening Post has re-run the referendum.
76-24 on over 7000 votes last time I looked. So a little less than in June but even so
NOn EU nurses? Soi yo are going to strip countries of their nurses - this can cause major issues for those countries and many non EU nurse qualifications do not count for UK purposes so we have to retrain them
How do you manage to turn the lack of EU nurses into some dig with racist connotations?
He is trying to suggest that because the UK is highly restrictive as regards non-EU migrants that some how the EU is racist. The UK government has recently added additional financial burdens on NHS trusts that wish to fill empty posts with non-EU staff, making recruitment of non-EU staff prohibitively expensive at a time when NHS trusts are struggling with their budgets already. The UK government has done this. Blaming EU migrants, or EU FoM for the anti-immigrant policies of our own government is standard tactics I'm afraid.
TurnerGuy - Memberbut it is still not as easy for non-EU migrants to get into the UK - currently there is discrimination in favor of the EU countries, so that in itself is rascist...
Which of course is a UK government policy, and nothing to do with the EU, we set rest-of-world immigration policy ourselves.
But it's a red herring, and I think an intentional one- an attempt to play the racism card. Leaving the EU isn't going to benefit rest-of-world immigrants, the goal is to cut immigration on all fronts. It won't make the lot of an african immigrant any better to make things worse for a French one.
Your point was very specific to EU nurses,
The problem [i]is[/i] very specifically a huge drop in EU nurses.
Saying "Oh we'll just recruit from non-EU countries" isn't a solution - we [i]already[/i] recruit from non-EU countries, as any trip to an NHS hospital will tell you, so we'd need to find an [i]additional[/i] 8,000+ nurses per year from those countries. That's a lot.
If low £ is your problem then that's trickier since I assume the low £ is considered desirable by some to encourage exports.
Low £ compounds the issue, as it potentially makes the UK a less attractive option to those non-EU nurses.
I think the only definite is that there is going to be a lot of anger directed by a lot of people at Brexies and let's-all-pull-togetherers for a long time.
Understandably of course.
NOn EU nurses? Soi yo are going to strip countries of their nurses
So what's your solution to that? Recruit Uk only nurses?
Are nurses exempt from the minimum earnings for non-EU nationals then? Otherwise how many of these nurses we're recruiting will be earning more than £35k pa? Given that the NHS were only given a 1% payrise this week I'm not sure that'll help fill the recruitment hole. We also have a drop in student nurse numbers due to the bursary being scrapped.
Must stay positive though.....
So what's your solution to that? Recruit Uk only nurses?
1) more new UK nurses needed - but UK government has scrapped the student nurse bursary, so fewer applying
2) more EEA nurses - but fewer applying because of UK government's approach to their rights and Brexit
3) more non-EEA nurses - but this now very burdensome because of UK government's new charges and requirements
4) retain existing nurses - but they are leaving because of working conditions in understaffed hospitals (see 1-3)
outofbreath - train more ourselves and also use EU nurses - spain for an example has a surplus
A few years ago there was a recrutment drive in the carribean. the only ITU on one of the main islands had to close as most of its nurses signed up to come to the UK.
If we recruit from non EU countries we should be paying them compensation to allow them to retrain more nurses
Indian nurses have to retrain to work in the UK
Main issue with UK nurses is 1/3 of them are approaching retirement age not that they leave the profession but we do not have enough in the pipeline to replace them
outofbreath - MemberSo what's your solution to that? Recruit Uk only nurses?
No. But recruit more. Hey, we could even try recruiting enough. Instead we're actively discouraging people from training, and driving qualified nurses out of the profession.
It's not just retirements though TJ, every nurse I know has moved to agency working, or private hospital jobs, or working overseas. Actually, I know one that hasn't, but she has applied to work in Australia… got offered a post but failed the immigration writing test… great nurse but never was great with the written word.
I'm a Southern Irish nurse, trained in London 1996-99, worked for the NHS since 1999. I'm leaving NHS and England, no certainty of rights to live/ work/ earn, NHS going to pot and insulting pay rises all factors.
I would categorically discourage anyone from doing the training now and would not do it myself - paying how much per year for the priviledge of being free staff in wards while training? No thanks.
Give it a few years and it will be doomed. As above, it is immoral to strip developing countries of their qualified staff to work here and as for train own people - having a laugh, see above about pay/ conditions/ paying to train.
So immoral to use Nurses from outside the Uk, and impossible to recruit within the UK!
Until we find some nurses in space I guess we'll just have to manage without Nurses!
NHS going to pot and insulting pay rises all factors.
I would categorically discourage anyone from doing the training now and would not do it myself - paying how much per year for the priviledge of being free staff in wards while training? No thanks.
Give it a few years and it will be doomed.
I think you could almost say the same for teaching. Only I don't think we recruit many teachers from overseas.
But if you don't have enought staff, pay ought to rise (eventually). i just doubt it'll happen in our time.
I'm a Southern Irish nurse, trained in London 1996-99, worked for the NHS since 1999. I'm leaving NHS and England, no certainty of rights to live/ work/ earn
Irish citizens have had a right to live/work/earn in the UK since long before the EU existed.
Regards nurses, We are already turning away thousands of non EU nurses:
http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/adam-hamdy/uk-government-turned-away-2700-nurses_b_10275224.html
Or you could say what I did and not tweak it to suit your message? In case you couldn't read it all, I am not from the U.K. - it isnt immoral to use outside staff then but the complete devestation of local workforces is. I said it was immoral to perform the stripping of staff from these areas - I have experineced mass recruitment drives to these areas going over for weeks at a time and recruiting large %ages of local staff leaving them compromised and unable to provide for their own population.
Its that attitude you demonstrate that will leave here in major crisis in the not too distant future - good luck!
Edit - Ninfan - yep that has been true but due to the complete refusal to provide indication of the on-going guarantee this uncertainty is fueling worry for people. And if the EU decide on Hard Border/ restriction then it doesnt really matter what the U.K. want as EU members the Republic will need to comply.
Here's a thought.
Sounds like May now accepts a deal won't be done inside 2 years and a transition will be needed.
If the EU say well yes to a transition but only within the realms of an A50 extension, then that would leave the A50 negotiations straddling the general election.
Now that would be interesting - especially as the EU are making noises about getting the UK to retract its A50 letter.
Now May could reject the extension offer - but that would see a cliff edge on the economy 12 months before the general election.
That would also be interesting.
I think this comes down to whether the EU actually want us to stay (and they may not).
Or you could say what I did and not tweak it to suit your message? In case you couldn't read it all, I am not from the U.K.
I don't have a message, just making the observation there is a shortage of public sector staff in the UK and it going to get worse.
Its that attitude you demonstrate that will leave here in major crisis in the not too distant future - good luck
What attitude might that be?
Give it a few years and it will be doomed. As above, it is immoral to strip developing countries of their qualified staff to work here and as for train own people
You say that, but there are loads of unemployed nurses in the Philippines.
but due to the complete refusal to provide indication
NHS going to pot and insulting pay rises all factors.
I do not think pay rise solves this all - working conditions and morale are a more fundamental issue.
I think this comes down to whether the EU actually want us to stay (and they may not).
My expectation is that before the leave date, the UK could, in practice, change its mind and the EU would accept that.
Philosophically I don't think the EU has a desire or means eject a member against its will and A50 doesn't mention it.
Tusk's face tells the story of how he feels - and note he also made a point of mentioning the 48% at the very beginning of his speech. (In 9 months May has never done that).
Experienced politicians know tides can turn very fast and the EU is better with the UK in.
So I don't think it's down to if the EU want us to stay, it's down to us, within the next 2 years, to ask to.