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Why?
Offer certainty ASAP and keep it out of the negotiations.
Why risk months or years of uncertainty?
The thing is, you trust May on this issue, where as those actually effected by this look at her track record.
Yes as I said that makes it all warm and fuzzy but does little to protect the interests of UK citizens resident in the EU. Is empathy only a one way street?
Given that you appear to have v little trust in our politicians - probably correctly so - odd that you don't have the same concerns about their EU counterparts.
"Don't look at how May has treated nonEU people living here, she won't let that happen to your EU friends and family living in the UK, honest… they don't need any legal status set out, just trust her to sort things"
[I]The EU can't tell the Swiss, EFTA or even EU member states how to handle non-EEA passport holders. [/I]
Interesting, so this negotiation won't actually include the rights of UK citizens in EU countries IF we're not in the EEA post-2019?
First time I've heard that.
odd that you don't have the same concerns about their EU counterparts.
Some will handle it well, some will no doubt be damn awkward; after we've left they'll be major differences between each EEA country over how they handle our people in their countries, in fact, there already is.
But you are happy to leave the interests of UK citizens in the awkward countries unprotected, With friends like you, they certainly don't need enemies do they?
I've already spoken to people I know living in 8 different EU countries, and all feel their position is best protected by the UK unilaterally sorting out the position of EU citizens living here. Politically it is the far smarter move according to them, and they understand the political dialogue of the countries they live in far better than me.
May just wants to play hardball with the interests of "foreigners".
Her time at the Home Office should set your expectations there.
Kimbers you ae right, hyperbole is the feature of the current narrative eg, storm troopers, confusing EU and non EU stories for effect, hissy fits, bargaining chips etc
You're right - "storm troopers" was an exaggeration, just like the stories of vans going round telling foreigners to go home. Oh, wait a mo. That was actually fact. I wonder whose idea it was? Probably not someone we should trust to deal fairly with immigration.
But you are happy to leave the interests of UK citizens in the awkward countries unprotected
They aren't made any more protected or unprotected by May's refusal to do the decent thing and protect the rights of EU nationals in the UK.
No really....
Have a quick look at political developments across Eur right now Dr. And then type the same statement...
I agree that May's van slogans were appaling and crass but again lets remember what they said - illegal immigrants not foreigners. Still in the land of hyperbole details do not matter do they. Lets scare the sh!t out of folk instead - empathy non-personified.
Who is trying to scare folk?
If the government spells out who will and won't be legally allowed to stay in the UK then fear will be removed for many.
It will and I hope they DO priorities this as I hope the EU does the same thing. It's in no ones interests to have such uncertainty. Agreed.
Still in the land of hyperbole details do not matter do they. Lets scare the sh!t out of folk instead - empathy non-personified
No comment on the letters telling EU citizens to go home? Have you been taking a correspondence course at the Jamba School of Argument?
Have a quick look at political developments across Eur right now Dr. And then type the same statement...
Your comment makes no sense. If May wants to protect UK citizens in the EU, she can do so. If (e.g.) the French refuse to protect Brits, despite Fr in the UK being protected, she can easily retaliate in other ways - extra tax on smelly cheese or whatever. Oh - sorry - that costs money - so f*** you and your sentimental attachment to your family.
I read the article - have you? More exaggerated claims...plus ca change
Have you been taking a correspondence course at the Jamba School of Argument?
Are you missing Jambas today - was it four anti-Jamba posts in a row yesterday? That's quite some obsession you have there. Perhaps you should see a doctor?
I am honoured to have you full attention today though - directly and indirectly (your IFS thread quote was a corker)
Your comment makes no sense. If May wants to protect UK citizens in the EU, she can do so. If (e.g.) the French refuse to protect Brits, despite Fr in the UK being protected, she can easily retaliate in other ways - extra tax on smelly cheese or whatever. Oh - sorry - that costs money - so f*** you and your sentimental attachment to your family.
Judging by the quality of argument displayed there, I can fully understand why you might struggle to see sense in my comments. I cannot compete at your level, sorry.
Lack of response noted, THM.
Good, nothing to comment on. Exaggerating a cock-up into policy is simply absurd. Papers should know better.
Whereas:
and as we see there is no rush on TM's part to make an agreement
1. Flies in the face of all the evidence that this is one area that is being prioritised, and that
2. Barnier is saying the same thing
But keep scaring your wife unnecessarily if it makes you feel better and more empathetic (sic). The irony is noted.
But keep scaring your wife unnecessarily if it makes you feel better and more empathetic (sic). The irony is noted.
The swear filter won't let me reply suitably to that.
I'm out of this thread from now on, and not engaging with you with you in any way.
Should have learnt that lesson sooner many would say.
Over and out…
But keep scaring your wife unnecessarily if it makes you feel better and more empathetic (sic). The irony is noted.
You have no clue what my wife's circumstances are, so you are not in any position to judge whether she should be scared or not, are you?
Au revoir kelvin
Correct Dr, but you do and chose to tell her about Stormtroopers gathering to kick her out etc. I would imagine that she finds that far more frightening than the truth. Which is worse?
Its your choice what you tell her, nothing to do with me. Personally, I WOULD avoid scare stories though.
Au revoir kelvin
Poor show THM, really.
Its French - meaning until we see each other again mol ie, look forward to Kelvins return when he has got over his upset.
In the spirit of EU togetherness a bit of French never hurts anyone
Thanks for the marital advice THM. I will file it where I usually file such things.
Perhaps you imagine that my wife is not perfectly capable of making her own assessment of her situation. You'd be amazed what women can comprehend!
I imagine nothing....certainly not jack-booted storm troopers kicking doors in.
I hope very much that your wife is safe and that her interests are protected as I do for all EU and UK citizens. As well meaning as the HoL vote was yesterday I doubt that it makes her position better, Sods law, probably/possibly the opposite.
But either way, she has my best wishes.
In the meantime, the gov calmly started that securing the rights of EU residents was a top priority that would be negotiated quickly on a bilateral basis thereby showing empathy to UK citizens resident in the EU.
And if those negotiations don't go as planned, you don't think there would be childish tit for tat stuff going on?
Why would you not guarantee it now, unless you are not 100% convinced you will never kick anyone out?
Quite possible which answers the second question
certainly not jack-booted storm troopers kicking doors in
That was very clearly a metaphor. These days it's a brown envelope with OHMS on the top. Effect is similar though.
First of all i should state i am completely anti brexit
Secondly i feel that using the lives of non uk born citizens as barganing chips is wrong
But I do feel slightly wary of offering guarantees to those that have moved to our country, without having similar guarantees in return for all those from the UK who are living abroad.
and a rather scary one at that - I would hate anyone using that in front of my wife.
So 3m brown envelopes on their way mol, is that correct? 😯
That was very clearly a metaphor. These days it's a brown envelope with OHMS on the top.
Though in the case of the Singaporean woman mentioned earlier it was a case of being bundled into a van and taken to a detention centre prior to deportation.
[i]But I do feel slightly wary of offering guarantees to those that have moved to our country, without having similar guarantees in return for all those from the UK who are living abroad. [/I]
But as said on the last page, if we're not even in the EEA then this isn't an EU-wide thing, but up to individual countries in how the 'treat' THEIR foreigners. Or as asked previously, am I wrong?
Taking the high ground and saying we will not punish anyone who already live in the UK just because they are not from here is a welcome change to a lot of the hate that seems to be out there. If we want to pretend we are in control of the situation and are global leaders it is a good start.
here here.
THM, have a word with yourself.
Easy to forget that May offered a deal in January to avoid all this aggro but it was rejected. Makes you think, or should do...
Anyway, most likely that HoC overdoes the rules and after the ping pong we carry on as before with hopefully Barnier and May leading in a positive direction
[quote=tpbiker ]
But I do feel slightly wary of offering guarantees to those that have moved to our country, without having similar guarantees in return for all those from the UK who are living abroad.
Why?
Why punish people for the actions of their government? As above, we have the opportunity to be the bigger man here.
I was immensely proud of Sturgeon's immediate commitment to EU nationals living in Scotland.
I was entirely not surprised by Fuhrer May's complete antipathy towards EU nationals living in England the rest of the UK.
I agree Bob, why? Especially as we seem to be benefitting economically from these people too! Isn't it a case of "cutting off your nose to spite your face"? I just don't see the logic, other than TM et al wanting to rattle their sabres at Europe before negotiations start, seems a pretty spineless reason though.
...and at odds with her trying to tie the whole issue up before negotiations began. Still hard to get frothy about that isn't it?
...and at odds with her trying to tie the whole issue up before negotiations began. Still hard to get frothy about that isn't it?
Well, not really. She can tie everything up without having to have everyone agreeing the same.
But I do feel slightly wary of offering guarantees to those that have moved to our country, without having similar guarantees in return for all those from the UK who are living abroad.
There's this thing called the moral high ground. British people like to imagine they occupy it, for some reason - when clearly we rarely do.
But I do feel slightly wary of offering guarantees to those that have moved to our country, without having similar guarantees in return for all those from the UK who are living abroad.
It was our electorate voted for Brexit, shouldnt we be accepting some responsibility for the upheaval it is causing?
The childish rejection of any responsibility by brexies or the government are as trump would say - Sad
br>> But as said on the last page, if we're not even in the EEA then this isn't an EU-wide thing, but up to individual countries in how the 'treat' THEIR foreigners. Or as asked previously, am I wrong?
Whilst the average Brexit voter is almost certainly ignorant of the fact that the EU doesn't supersede national sovereignty on such matters, it's disingenuous at best for Theresa May to rule out guarantees for EU citizens here based on her asking the EU for something she clearly knows it can't give.
True - but IIRC she offered the deal to all the other states earlier this year but a small number (was it 2 including allegedly Germany?) declined
I think mefty knows the details
May has made it clear that she wishes to grant EU citizens the right to stay. It is the EU which is playing politics with people's lives. As I noted on the Corbyn thread the EU said immediately it was supportive of a special deal for the Irish/NI border. It chose not to issue the same language and to play games
There's this thing called the moral high ground. British people like to imagine they occupy it, for some reason - when clearly we rarely do.
Well it's not the UK which has a Buhka ban or is passing legislation preventing EU citizens from claiming unemployment benefits whilst at the same time pretending to stand at the centre of the EU. It's not the UK government which agreed cosy triple-Irish tax breaks amounting to a 1% corporate tax rate. I have more but I think you get the gist ...
@Boarding (and TJ) did you see the STW'ers thread on his Polish son being excluded from 6yo's football in Scotland.
It is the EU which is playing politics with people's lives.
Nope it's both of them, the only one which has the power to grant anything in the Britain is TM, she could choose to do so. She doesn't on the basis that it could be a useful negotiating tool (IMO). Pretty heartless morally, and questionably not economically sensible either.
THM you are straying into ninfan territory, you seem to take great delight in antagonising people who disagree or have different views from you.