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Some really crap bickering and insulting each other on here. Please stop.
Anyway. Interesting thought earlier - if the country does go to the dogs because of Brexit, most brexiteers won't believe that (they'll be in denial) so they'll have no-one else to blame but May. Could result in a kicking at the next GE perhaps?
When it comes to the real thing, rights of citizens is never going to be in doubt. Both sides have completely aligned interests.
Which so far has not made a difference to the people it impacts, simply writing that into the bill would do and make things much easier for people planning university and schools for their kids or trying to secure a house.
as the line goes
the road to hell is paved with good intentions
(partially) True mrmo.
We shall see if it makes any practical difference. Ping pong anyone?
When it comes to the real thing, rights of citizens is never going to be in doubt.
There is doubt right now, and we should remove it. People don't know for sure if they will be able to stay here (even when they have family and work here). People are leaving, taking their skills and family with them, or jumping through beaucratic hoops (with a 25% failure rate) in order to keep their right to stay. All avoidable damage to people's lives, and the U.K. as a whole.
What a bunch of non-elected nonsense.
They act as a moderator on the "confederacy of amateurs" in the lower chamber.
Anyway. Interesting thought earlier - if the country does go to the dogs because of Brexit, most brexiteers won't believe that (they'll be in denial) so they'll have no-one else to blame but May. Could result in a kicking at the next GE perhaps?
No, I think you will find some brexiters so far in denial that what ever happens it won't be brexits fault. We can only know one outcome, we can model plenty of others, but they involve experts... So because what you experience can not be framed against an alternative it is quite easy to look for reasons that don't fit your opinion.
If for example there is a 5% reduction in GDP, that won't be brexits fault, it will be foreigners not buying British stuff. If there is a return to the troubles in NI it won't be because a hard border has been imposed, it will be because foreigners refused to allow the porous border to continue. Any issue in Gibraltar will be Spains fault, etc etc etc.
I think you will find some brexiters so far in denial that what ever happens it won't be brexits fault.
That's what I said.
They could decide to blame May for not managing it properly rather than the project itself.
This is the thing, it creates a lot of good will, i see no way that 3M can actually be deported, so might as well be upfront and clear and frame the debate about how you respect the rights of those who are here.
Which is all very well until the EU don't agree to respect of our citizens rights until we have agreed a leaving bill in isolation of the future arrangements. It is a negotiation, you don't concede a point unless you are receiving a concession. We offered to take it off the table, our offer was rejected.
Well we are merely showing our lack of experience in negotiation mefty. Tactically inept, true, but we now have a warm glowing feeling inside.
Let's see what happens in HoC now....
Perhaps when assigning blame we should look in the mirror first. Who lost the easy argument? Who is now trying to obstruct the process? Who is being responsible?
warm glowing feeling
Which is of course fantastic for funding hospitals, social care etc, bugger the money, we are on the moral high ground, shame it is in the middle of a quarry.
Anyway surely Brexit ping pong should be called whiff whaff.
😀
Which is all very well until the EU don't agree to respect of our citizens rights until we have agreed a leaving bill in isolation of the future arrangements. It is a negotiation, you don't concede a point unless you are receiving a concession.
Even if other countries choose to withdraw rights held by UK citizens, we should still tell people currently living and working here perfectly legally that they can stay post Brexit, and, in fact, that we value them and want them to stay. Doing so is entirely in the interests of this country, and is an opportunity for us to grab, not a price of negotiations.
Which is all very well until the EU don't agree to respect of our citizens rights until we have agreed a leaving bill in isolation of the future arrangements. It is a negotiation, you don't concede a point unless you are receiving a concession. We offered to take it off the table, our offer was rejected.
I always thought that the UK was a pretty accepting and overall alright place which is why so many people wanted to come here. Taking the high ground and saying we will not punish anyone who already live in the UK just because they are not from here is a welcome change to a lot of the hate that seems to be out there. If we want to pretend we are in control of the situation and are global leaders it is a good start.
When it comes to the real thing, rights of citizens is never going to be in doubt. Both sides have completely aligned interests.
Well, you say that, but it would be handy to know if MrsJ should unpack her suitcases, or if she should leave them as is while waiting for a knock on the door from Theresa's storm-troopers.
I have packed some boxes and I am not undoing them for sure 😀
DrJ - we have a spare bedroom to hide her (both of you) in if it kicks off. I'm sure others will do the same.
According to the vote half (possibly more) of the country aren't racist gits.
i see no way that 3M can actually be deported
Is it really only 3 million? All depends how far back you go and on what grounds doesn't it?
For example, mother and father in law both from Belgium but have been in UK since 1960's. Are they on the deportation list?
My wife is Belgian and been here since 1970's (was born in Belgium) and is married to me (UK citizen). IS she on the deportation list?
Are the 3 people above on that 3 million?
Kerley, basically depends on whether they are British citizens or not.
I'm thinking my sister in law and her daughte( my niece) has quite possibly lost her right to live in the U.K. Said she had ILR but has been out of the country for long enough for a zealous border guard could just take it off her next time she tries to visit. As in that recent case in the news.
Poorly handled by May, she should have seen this coming and put it in the bill.
Millions of EU citizens shouldn't have their lives put on hold because of our own country's referendal stupidity.
Senior French researcher leaving do on Friday, as she said she's been working and paying taxes here for 10 years,but if she's no longer welcome makes sense to get out sooner rather than later if there's gonna be a flood of EU professionals heading home to look for jobs.
[I]Anyway. Interesting thought earlier - if the country does go to the dogs because of Brexit, most brexiteers won't believe that (they'll be in denial) so they'll have no-one else to blame but May. Could result in a kicking at the next GE perhaps? [/I]
Based on the Stoke by-election turnout you could argue that the 'Brexiters' only came out for the referendum vote, so less of a worry for the Tories - and who would they vote for instead?
As far as the EU citizens living in the UK, originally I thought it's best left for the negotiation but TBH I'm now coming around to the belief that we need to provide guarantees if only to protect the UK.
Not sure what these 'guarantees' could be, nor how they could be administered nor even do we have a 'cut-off date'. Otherwise we could be creating ourselves an even bigger problem, if that was actually possible...
And, anyone with a non-UK citizenship that's been working here, make sure you write to HMRC to get your state pension statement - keep it in a safe place.
https://www.gov.uk/check-state-pension
Have the bags by the door Dr, the storm troopers are being readied as we speak
If "professionals" are leaving their jobs because they "are no longer welcome" then you have to question just how professional they are. More academic than common sense ? Can they get tickets given that the queues are already full of bankers rushing home too?
Of course both sides are going to place securing residents rights at the bottom of the list just after bananas and marmalade
The mass hyperbole continues
Kerley, i don't know the exact number so maybe out a bit. But basically if you don't qualify for the right British passport you don't have the right to stay.
https://www.gov.uk/types-of-british-nationality/overview
This also includes those born here and their parentage. So you can be born in the UK and live your whole life here but have no right to stay.
Part of the issue is that people have used freedom of movement to move and then why bother applying for citizenship if you don't need it? Why bother collating documentation when you don't need it etc.
Just found this, which gives an idea, but as UKBA is basically incompitent, (as amended by TM) no one really knows. so all based on surveys and best guesses.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-uk-leaves-the-eu-36745584
And expect ID cards to be back on the agenda in the near future, it will be the only way to prove who are allowed to stay in the UK.
Kerley to answer your specific questions and i am not a lawyer. My understanding, Do they have indefinite leave to remain? IF yes then they can stay subject to certain regulations, like not leaving. If they don't, then even though they have lived here for decades they don't. I would strongly suggest having a chat to an immigration lawyer and getting some proper advice.
My dad is an Irish citizen and has been here since the 50's, and having no need for UK citizenship to stay never bothered. Who knows what the situation is there now!
Its real people being affected - and don't forget those UK citizens overseas.
2 friends of mine in Scotland face losing their right to stay. BOth running businesses as well. One is certainly making plans to leave. Then my sister. Lived in the Netherlands for 25 years. Where does she stand? Again she runs a business
What about all those UK pensioners in spain? - they are going to lose their healthcare rights
Its an absolute disgrace May wants to use these people as bargaining chips no matter the cost to them.
You may say - well just apply for citizenship - if only it were that easy. it will take dozens of years to even process all the claims at current rates of progress
If "professionals" are leaving their jobs because they "are no longer welcome" then you have to question just how professional they are.
You have a serious problem. Sort yourself out. Try some empathy. People want to know that their families won't be split up, and if the only way to guarantee that is to move country, of course they will look to do that, no matter what their work responsibilities.
Empathy includes not scaring people unnecessary with exaggerated stories simply to create a false narrative. How empathetic is scaring a spouse with stories of storm troopers?
That's what needs sorting out.
False narrative? People's fears that they won't be able to stay can be alivieated by telling them they can stay. May needs to do that. We know why she won't. She has past form when it comes to families with a non-EU member, and people have very real fears that families with a rEU family member will be treated the same when the time comes.
Empathy includes not scaring people unnecessary with exaggerated stories simply to create a false narrative. How empathetic is scaring a spouse with stories of storm troopers?
Scare stories about EU citizens receiving letters telling them to leave the country, you mean? Is that false narrative? Or just an inconvenient truth?
If "professionals" are leaving their jobs because they "are no longer welcome" then you have to question just how professional they are
Quite a silly comment - do "professionals" have nothing in their lives other than their "profession"? Are they not allowed to consider how comfortable they feel in their environment?
[url= http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/woman-irene-clennell-uk-deport-singapore-british-husband-durham-immigration-detention-centre-a7601441.html ]Scare story? [/url]
If this is how we treat immigrants, and you are an immigrant how would you feel now?
[I]Scare stories about EU citizens receiving letters telling them to leave the country, you mean? Is that false narrative? Or just an inconvenient truth? [/I]
What this kind of stuff?
And, needing to give up your passport for 4-6 months while they 'process' the application - yeah, like none of us ever need to go anywhere...
The Singapore case has more to it than we realise IMO, and as it's non-EU should be on a different post.
THM - MemberPerhaps when assigning blame we should look in the mirror first. Who lost the easy argument? Who is now trying to obstruct the process? Who is being responsible?
Ah, I know the answer to the first one!
David Cameron!
as it's non-EU should be on a different post
She has past form when it comes to families with a non-EU member, and people have very real fears that families with a rEU family member will be treated the same when the time comes.
If May hadn't made things so hard for non-EU spouses, and other non-EU residents, while at the home office, EU citizens would be far less worried about how she'll handle them if/when/once they have much the same status.
Looks like someone I know will be able to get Italian citizenship (he's never lived there) more simply than his other half, and mother of his children, can get her UK rights sorted out… the business is all in his name, on paper she's never worked here, a mistake in hindsight.
May can make it simple, sort out the rights of EU citizens here IN ADVANCE of negotiations, and disarm the issue. She may 'intend' so get this sorted early in negotiations, but why not remove the certainty now? In case you're wondering, every UK citizen I know living in rEU say that they want this to happen as well… if this is removed form the negotiations they think they have far more chance of getting their own statuses sorted soon rather than later/never.
as it's non-EU should be on a different post.
Presumably post-Brexit, in the absence of an agreement (and as we see there is no rush on TM's part to make an agreement), then EU [s]bargaining chips[/s] people will be in the same boat (perhaps literally) as Singaporeans?
If May hadn't made things so hard for non-EU spouses, and other non-EU residents, while at a the home office,
Not only - there is also the issue of requiring EU citizens in the UK to have additional comprehensive sickness insurance.
Thm, go and find a bunch of Europeans to have coffee with, especially those with families, onn 2-3 year contracts, with 10% of their industry funding blocked, no big safety net of cash or assets...
Ask them how they feel about the Tories morphing into UKIP, the prominent brexiteers now cabinet ministers, still spouting their jingoistic rubbish, the emboldened swivel-eyed xenophobes on any BBC article open to comments or the right wing press going even more hysterical with a daily hissy fit declaring Brexit the will of the people.!
Hyperbole it may be, but it's the major narrative being offered right now.
The Singapore case has more to it than we realise IMO, and as it's non-EU should be on a different post.
They always do, but it sets the tone. And as EU and non EU become the same thing.
Thinking a bit further, Swiss and Norway aren't in the EU, our agreements with both countries are via the EU, which basically means that any negotiation with the EU doesn't actually include these countries.
So going forward we may come to a trade agreement with bits of Europe and then have to have another round of negotiations with other bits of Europe!
Is that right or wrong???????
Kimbers you ae right, hyperbole is the feature of the current narrative eg, storm troopers, confusing EU and non EU stories for effect, hissy fits, bargaining chips etc
In the meantime, the gov calmly started that securing the rights of EU residents was a top priority that would be negotiated quickly on a bilateral basis thereby showing empathy to UK citizens resident in the EU. Bas@@@ds
The EU can't tell the Swiss, EFTA or even EU member states how to handle non-EEA passport holders. Very likely that each country will put their own measures in place… Ireland and Spain might decide that UK passport holders can carry on pretty much as before our exit… Germany might decide to make it super simple/quick to gain Gerrman citizenship, but insist that you must do so to keep your rights.
confusing EU and non EU stories for effect
Strawman. Plenty of clarification above about why the UK treatment of nonEU people living in UK is entirely relevant.
Yes and about as convincing as the Ford and Banker stories
Talk to some rEU citizens living in the UK. Listen to others. Try it. Empathy is essential.
It is and starts with telling the truth not scaring people with exaggerated stories.
Yes, they have uncertainty. No need to add to that. How is that empathetic?
We need to press on and deliver a fast bilateral agreement protecting the rights of both UK and EU citizens. Oddly that is what the government is doing. How very dare they....