[Closed] EU Referendum - are you in or out?

Trivialising and mocking those concerned about immigration is why UKIP are making such gains in Labour constituencies

Hmm, not sure the causation is correct there.

Can we come back to the bailout of Greece though, because my questions remain unanswered. Let's start with the ESF and how it works. Otherwise we rerivialising and mocking those concerned with how Greece will be sorted out.

1. How is the ESF funded and by whom?
2. What is our role?
3. What did we contribute in the past?
4 What will we contribute in the future?
5. As an out country, will we stil be exposed via IMF etc?

Just caught the last bit of Marr, who was the mad woman making totally spurious claims with a straight face?. I still can't work out whether these people believe/have come to believe this nonsense or whether they are just happy to lie? It's odd...

PJ Harvey WTF??????

Trivialising and mocking those concerned about immigration is why UKIP are making such gains in Labour constituencies

Spent much time in Labours Northern Heartlands (TM) of late Jammers? How were your recent visits to Rochdale, Oldham and Bradford? As thats a ridiculously simplistic view of what is happening. Since the dawn of Blairism, the traditional labour working class voters (of all colours and religions) have felt all but abandoned, their votes totally taken for granted by an Islington metropolitan elite who seem more concerned with equality (gay marriage etc) than they do about the decimation of the post-industrial north.

Immigration is indeed a part of that. But then so is the labour parties fawning indulgence of the financial sector. Its complicated.

Scotland have shown what can happen when a credible alternative to labour is offered. The fact that this hasn't happened with UKIP in the north tells you everything you need to know about how serious or credible an alternative UKIP is considered to be.

What the leave campaign have now been reduced to in this mornings papers can be summed up in 3 words:

Alarmist

racist

Lies

What worries me is that the likes of Boris Johnson, Gove etc are happy to stoke up racial tension because, for now, it suits their agenda. But once this referendum is out of the way, they're not going to have to deal with those inflamed racial tensions because, like you, they won't have to live in the communities where these divisions have been forced, to further temporary political ends

Quite frankly, I find the whole lowest-common-denominator, dog whistle racist approach incredibly destructive, with these people not even bothered about the long term effects of what it is they're doing. See also: Lynton Crosby's glaringly irresponsible London Mayoral campaign for Zac Goldsmith

Its absolutely disgusting!

Are you seriously unconcerned about the frankly ludicrous racist nonsense that your friends and allies are presently lobbing in to the 'debate' (such as it is), like hand grenades?

Trivialising and mocking those concerned about immigration is why UKIP are making such gains in Labour constituencies

Of course it is. 😆

So basically if you say it then it's true, if we say it we are mocking? How does that work?

Well said binners
Johnson in particular shwould be ashamed of himself

Jammers - if you want chapter and verse on why the northern working class is so disillusioned with the present labour party, then put Five Live on now and listen to the interview of Andy Burnham byJohn Pienaar.

Andy gets it! And thats precisely why he's now running for Manchester Mayor, and doing what Sadiq Khan has already done in distancing himself from the Westminster Labour Party.

Alternatively carry on with your ludicrously over-simplified black and white worldview

No we didn't go to Bradford, beautiful Lake District and Leeds. What I have done is read about the reasons for Labour's defeat from the parties own research.

The attempt to brand those who are worried about the consequences of immigration as racists is an attempt to intimidate and to close down discussion. All we are asking for is a system consistent with that which exists in the US, Canada and Australia. In fact the system which exists almost everywhere else other than the EU.

As Penny Mourdant MP said on Andrew Marr today, having new countries join the EU isn't a problem if there is control of borders, if there is no freedom of movement it can be managed. This is the difference between an Economic Community and a political union. We will not be able to veto Turkey joining the EU as Turkey will ensure its EU membership is central to addressing the migrant crises - why on earth do you think they've done pretty much nothing to stop a million people leaving their shores in boats ? Surprise surprise now they have been given €9bn and will be given visa free travel they are actually policing their coast and stopping the sale of boats to poeple smugglers.

great post(s) binners!

jambalaya - Member
No we didn't go to Bradford, beautiful Lake District and Leeds. What I have done is read about the reasons for Labour's defeat from the parties own research.

There's your problem, the labour party hasn't a scooby either, it's why they are in terminal decline in the likes of Scotland, they have no idea how to fix it. So reading their reports will tell you very little.

Jambalaya - Member

The attempt to brand those who are worried about the consequences of immigration as racists is an attempt to intimidate and to close down discussion.

I don't particularly brand them racists, more like simpletons tbh.

The attempt to brand those who are worried about the consequences of immigration as racists is an attempt to intimidate and to close down discussion

No... in this case, its simply a statement of fact. Its pure dog whistle racism.

We will not be able to veto Turkey joining the EU

Turkey aren't joining the EU. Neither is Albania.

Just more lies. And more racism. The not-even-thinly-veiled implication is "pssst ... look at all those Muslims. Most of them are rapists, you know. Do you want them all coming here? Do you?"

it wouldn't be out of place on an EDL website

Its absolutely disgusting. And utterly desperate

Surprise surprise now they have been given €9bn and will be given visa free travel they are actually policing their coast and stopping the sale of boats to poeple smugglers.

So now you're criticising the EU for implementing a policy that has actually worked, in succeeding in what it set out to do? Bravo!!!! The hypocrisy is truly breathtaking

What worries me is that the likes of Boris Johnson, Gove etc are happy to stoke up racial tension because, for now, it suits their agenda. But once this referendum is out of the way, they're not going to have to deal with those inflamed racial tensions because, like you, they won't have to live in the communities where these divisions have been forced, to further temporary political ends

At the same time, that's very close to the whole 'don't talk about race' approach that we got under years of Labour, which left us with the only people talking about problems being the BNP

You only need to look at the abuse Anne Cryer MP got from within the Labour Party for 'stoking up racial tension' by tiring to talk about the abuse of teenage girls, that as a result went on unchecked for a decade.

At the same time, that's very close

Course it is yeah, Zulu. 😆

Regarding the EU spending, I can't particularly say it bothers me all that much, it's hardly a massive amount, in relative terms, ie the EU budget was 142billion yoyo.

http://europa.eu/about-eu/basic-information/money/expenditure/index_en.htm

Across 28 countries, that's not a lot when you consider the UK budget is about £760bn..

And the concept, of rich countries helping to try and drag up the poorer countrires. I really can't get my head around opposition to that..

Maybe it's just because I actually feel European.. But this argument baffles me, it's the usual nonsense about money and stuff. It's crap tbh.

Darcy - In fact, the same words "inflame racial tensions" we're used by the police when they got Channel four to cancel showing the 'edge of the city' documentary that revealed what was going on

I dunno labrat, you seem to want to talk about race a lot. So go on...what is it you're desperate to say about race?

Perhaps you can fill us in as to why decisions taken by a couple of police forces are now the fault of the EU?

Classy to bring up the Rochdale cases though. I love the fact that we now have a lot of rich, privately educated, home counties Tory's who have now had a sudden epiphany, and discovered an overwhelming concern for working class voters in places like Rochdale and Oldham.

On top of it being absolutely comical in its transparent opportunism, and obvious massive hypocrisy, it demonstrates that they've never actually been to anywhere like Rochdale and Oldham, and haven't got a ****ing clue about the issues that face the populations there

Eh? It wasn't me that brought up race, I'm just challenging that saying politicians should avoid "inflaming racial tensions" is a slippery slope & a mistake we've made before, and I say that as someone who was living a few miles outside of Keighley when It was being swept under the carpet. (I never even mentioned Rochdale or Oldham)

My point is that the Leave campaign are now so desperate that all they have left is blatant out-and-out racism!

The crap they're putting out today could have been voiced by Nick Griffin. The fact that its being used to further a short term agenda, by people who have not the slightest concern for the long term consequences of the divisions they are deliberately engineering is absolutely disgusting, and an example of how utterly morally bankrupt the main protagonists are!!!

Yeah, but it turned out that, much as all of us think he's a ****, Nick Griffin was unfortunately telling the truth.

as Jamba said [i]The attempt to brand those who are worried about the consequences of immigration as racists is an attempt to intimidate and to close down discussion.[/i]

Just like it was in 2003 with Anne Cryer and the edge of the city documentary

Yeah, but it turned out that, much as all of us think he's a ****, Nick Griffin was telling the truth

I think we can now discard any further contribution you've got to make.

Thanks for demonstrating that what the leave campaign are today advocating most definitely isn't out-and-out racism though

It wasn't me that brought up race

No, but it was you who appears frustrated that no-one is allowed to talk about race. So, again, go on, what is it you want to say about race Zulu? (Or perhaps want others to say about it for you?)

Actually they might be onto something it would seem. [url= http://newsthump.com/2016/05/22/12m-turks-heading-to-uk-for-sunday-express-free-seeds-and-hosepipe-offer/ ]Seems the Turks are coming in their millions.[/url]

i think we can now discard any further contribution you've got to make

You seem to have made the mistake of believing that because he and his mates are odious Little *****, the allegations were not true

Turns out they were.

Unfortunately you appear to be doing the same with the Brexiters

You've heard of ad-hominem I take it?

Can you tell me exactly what it is Nick said thats come true then? He's said an awful lot. Is it the bits about black people being mentally inferior? Or the more general stuff?

And which bits about Turkish murderers and Albanian rapists put out this morning by the Out campaign are true too? Because to me it just looks like a lot of made up racism to appeal directly to racists

Cheers!

And the concept, of rich countries helping to try and drag up the poorer countrires. I really can't get my head around opposition to that..

@binners did Leave write those newspaper articles - I can't tell as I haven't read them ?

Turkey has made re-opening its "discussions" / negotiations a condition of playing ball on the refugee crises. They may not be doing it in the open but I am absolutely certain that's whats going on. Its 40 years since our last referendum and as I posted from the original leaflet the EU looks nothing like the vision for the EEC people voted on.

There is a very good chance Austria will today elect the "far right" candidate - the piece below should worry everyone, it certainly does me - if he does as he has suggested and disolves parliament the mainstream parties could be decimated.

[url= http://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/may/21/fear-of-migrants-austria-wels-norbert-hofer ]linky[/url]

@binners you yourself have pointed out how there has been no integration (a key demand of Austrian far right candidate is he insists on integration eg kids learning German language poems and nursery rhymes see the Gaurdian piece above) in cities in the North. Is Rotherham an integrated place, have accusations - or fear of - racism lead to people turning a blind eye to serious issues ?

As I said before on the Leave stall many people came up and admit they are nervous to speak about immigration in public as they are afraid they will be called racist. So they say nothing and hold their views in private until one day they are expressed at the ballot box dor the only party which is prepared to discuss them. Diane Abbot shut down the red Labour mug saying "immigration" at the 2015 GE - shut it down, its not us, not a Labour issue. Thats a mistake imho

As a co-incidence an hour ago a homeless person stopped outside our flat in Paris to shelter from the rain, laid down under scaffolding with his bags and put his head down

Actually all this wrangling about IN or OUT may prove to be pointless as the EU is doing an excellent job of falling apart all on its own!! Soon we will all be OUT however we vote.

the EU is doing an excellent job of falling apart all on its own!! Soon we will all be OUT however we vote.

Agreed

Tin foil hat Sunday is going well then 😉

Corbyn isn't responsible for anything outside his party yet, hopefully long may that continue.

Interesting comment from head of NHS today on Andrew Marr's show that the service couldn't cope with a disruption in the economy (if the economy sneezes the NHS catches a cold) this being a hint a Brexit was a bad idea in the scenario an exit caused a slowing in the economy. He seems to have ignored the impending collapse when Greece goes bust.

Austrian poll 50/50 with 98% polling votes counted, supposedly 14% of Ausrians vote by post and their results will be announced Monday so I imagine we cannot know till then.

He seems to have ignored the impending collapse when Greece goes bust.

Perhaps he does not read your posts?

He's not alone then .... in not being a mountain biker 😉

No one in authority will discuss as that would be "irresponsible". Its a bit like when the Government said there is no plan for the scenario Greece leaves the euro - except we where obliged to make one by the banking regulator, I know as I had to work on it.

YOu have confused me taking the piss with me wanting to engage with you on your pet hates

Forgive me.

Why does immigration have to be linked to racism?
I object to immigration purely because we are bloody well full!
I also see issues that are attached to immigration that are only getting worse. I go to a variety of schools that are slowly being filled with kids who speak not a word of English, are several years behind ours because their home country starts later and there is no funding to support them. And why should there be, no one deserves special attention at the expense of the majority.
By the way I don't object to the school system being different, it just doesn't match ours.
I have no racist agenda, I just want less people and I don't care who they are. If we could send native Britain's elsewhere then immigrants are welcome.
Also
"And the concept, of rich countries helping to try and drag up the poorer countries. I really can't get my head around opposition to that." I can. When we are sorted let's try it.
I'll buy into the idea when those who preach it practice it with their own resources.
Personally I cannot see why we can't do a Switzerland or Andorra type thing and have our own little niche.

@matt I agree totally - the Remain side use the word racist to intimidate people into keeping quiet, you see the same with UKIP

Can we take it back a page or two. I'm still struggling with this bit:

chewkw - Member
jambalaya - Member
Remain ahead but what really caught my eye was the big lead Leave have with low-skilled, un-skilled and the unemployed 49 vs 36

No surprise there to me because that is exactly how the system works.
This mega bureaucratic EU system exist as a form to maintain those elites in their positions by ensuring those with low-skilled, un-skilled and etc remain in theirs. No difference from other Politburo.

I very much understand that demographic being more anti-EU. The dangerous assumption is that they are just thick and racist. Probably more accurate to say that they have been on the receiving end of 35 years of shit, are perhaps more easily influenced by the brazen bullshit (because it taps into their poor expectations), and yes, possibly because of the level of educational attainment / degree of interest or critical appraisal of current affairs...

What I DON'T UNDERSTAND, is the assertion that it is

mega bureaucratic EU system exist as a form to maintain those elites in their positions by ensuring those with low-skilled, un-skilled and etc remain in theirs.

Are we asking for success and high attainment to be handed out on a plate? I thought Tory ethics were all about success through hard work, discipline and achievement? Surely being low-skilled / unskilled is the primary cause of this segment of the population's poor life experience...

Are the right wingers on here asking for success to be given out to lower achievers on account of being British rather than immigrants?

The world truly has gone mad

jambalaya - Member
@seaso My priority is to my fellow citizens

"And the concept, of rich countries helping to try and drag up the poorer countries. I really can't get my head around opposition to that." I can. When we are sorted let's try it.

So you're against immigration, and against helping poorer countries. Has it occurred to you why people in other countries want to come here? Think about it for a second, you never know a few braincells might spark into action 🙄

I object to immigration purely because we are bloody well full!

Bloody well full - no really!! Any criteria for judging "full"?

jambas - perhaps the CEO of the NHS knew his industry better than the xenophobic outers who pretend that the service is inundated by nasty foreigners. Just a thought?

rkk01 - Member
Can we take it back a page or two. I'm still struggling with this bit:

These ultra elites strive for individual personal wealth only by putting themselves above many. Yes, you might think that they are merely administrative but have you encountered administrative power?

During the bad times these people will not be affected as they have all the resources require to move around unlike you the poor that will have languish with your locals. The poor are only their stepping stones to maintain their positions coz they are no different from any others that exploit.

The main issue here is why give them more rights or power to exploit and to mess up lives?

Go think about this.

jamba and chewkw, what a tag team! 😆

seosamh77 - Member
... we are EU citizens.

seosamh77 - Member
jamba and chewkw, what a tag team!

My priority is to my fellow citizens