[Closed] EU Referendum - are you in or out?

Yes I agree on the immigration thing, and if we vote out then immigration will still occur and we will have far more options and flexibility to take in more non-EU migrants with a completely different skill set and background - maybe more doctors, nurses, computer scientists, research scientists, instead of plumbers and strawberry pickers. And keep out Europe's fleeing murderers and rapists - we have enough of our own murders and rapists to deal with.

rkk01 - logic fail on your part i'm afraid in blaming pensioners who've paid into the system all their lives rather than immigrants who haven't contributed at all. Most of those pensioners you talk about have paid into the system all their lives and have been significant net contributors to the system. Millions of EU migrants suddenly 'flooding' the country, alot coming with significant and expensive health problems some of which had been eradicated from the UK, have not contributed anything. The NHS is not a charity, nor is it a bottomless pit of money and there is more money going into the NHS now than ever before and the NHS budget is protected by successive governments so has not been cut. Not sure how you think it is logical that if you flood any system with limited funding with significant increase in demand that it won't come under severe stress or even break at some point. The NHS is funded by people, taxpayers, not 'The Government' so each individual pays into it and from time to time uses the system. The NHS relies on the fact that generally most people pay more into it that they take out of it over their lifetime, but now with people living longer that model is already being tested and strained, so a sudden massive increase in demand would break it.

I have no idea if the scare stories of millions of immigrants flooding our country is true to not, but if true it is clear that the NHS will come under even more strain than it is currently under as most migrants seem to want to come to either the UK or Germany.

rkk01 - logic fail on your part i'm afraid in blaming pensioners who've paid into the system all their lives

Most of those pensioners you talk about have paid into the system all their lives and have been significant net contributors to the system

he increased unfunded demand is from pensioners with multiple complex problems. That is where the model breaks. Funding over 30-40 years of working and paying taxes does not match the draw on the kitty made by people who are now living 30-40 years in retirement.

If you want to lecture folk on logic then dont do it with a fallacy/ straw man
[b]Definitely dont do it with a straw man that is not even true[/b]
Some days I love STW 😆

[url= http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/05/20/british-deserters-will-face-the-consequences-warns-eus-juncker/ ]http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/05/20/british-deserters-will-face-the-consequences-warns-eus-juncker/[/url]

Threats from a desperate EU Commissioner. Show me where I tick 'out'!

@tmh Osbourne managed to weasel out of the request last time as Junker agreed a contribution would be very negative wrt the Referedum. You can remind me of our contribution after the Greek default/debacle etc

That is not answering the question. You are making a big point of this so

1. How is the ESF funded and by whom?
2. What is our role?
3. What did we contribute in the past?
4 What will we contribute in the future?
5. As an out country, will we stil be exposed via IMF etc?

I have no idea if the scare stories of millions of immigrants flooding our country is true to not, but if true it is clear that the NHS will come under even more strain than it is currently under as most migrants seem to want to come to either the UK or Germany.

If only there was somewhere that published the figures so you could check.

I assume by migrants you mean the refugees? as convenient as it is to shoo them away there is a humanitarian crisis going on that Greece isn't big enough to cope with.

As for EU migration it's not that big, those that come pay tax and contribute as opposed to those born here who take out for a good 18 years before contributing anything.
The solution to NHS capacity isn't putting a full sign up it's about working out how to fund it properly.

I spent yesterday morning in the local hospital. If you'd emptied out all except the white British people (patients and staff), I'd have been on my own.

Good or bad is another question.

Threats from a desperate EU Commissioner.

Anyway brexit says we will be able to negotiate ace terms and when they say no the argument is look we must leave as they are bullies

Essentially either option "proved" your view. Hence why debate is so difficult.

Out

Reasons why:

Non elected officials with immense legislative power; operating under a practically autonomous remit.

Non auditable budget in which they spend my taxes

No control over borders. This isn't a xenophobic attitude, I'm proud of this countries historical immigration record, we are essentially a country of immigrants. However I believe we should have the right to control over who we left in and who we chose to expel.

We are the 5th richest nation in the world, we will have access to European and worlds markets. People state we will lose our bargaining power by going alone, we will increase our bargaining power. As stated we are the 5th richest nation, we will go into negations in our own right without the burden or a predominately failed Europe. You take Germany and to a lesser extend France out of our European economic bargaining power and you effectively have more dead weight than anything that gives Europe additional bargaining power. We are propping up what are effectively failed states, states that have failed due to massively mismanaged tax regimes and corruption.

I have no idea if the scare stories of millions of immigrants flooding our country is true to not, but if true it is clear that the NHS will come under even more strain than it is currently under as most migrants seem to want to come to either the UK or Germany.

I work in the NHS as agency, as such I get to experience multiple sites

There are many areas in the country where my daily work list is predominately foreign nationals, these are also in the main not people that will be having a net positive financial contribution to the UK.

[img] [/img]

On Any Answers on Radio 4 at the moment, the calm and measured Outers are quoting Goebells desire to create a European superstate. They''ve not graduated onto accusing Junkers of being a genocidal mass murderer yet, but I'm sure they're just getting warmed up.

Nut jobs!

deadlydarcy - Member

Excellent!

We have another supporter from [b]deadlydarcy to Vote OUT[/b].

I went to a pub yesterday with work colleagues so they started the topic on IN or OUT and they asked me who I would vote for. I just told them I would Vote OUT. I think both of them are Voting IN but very reluctantly ...

Anyhoo, they changed the subject after hearing my rational. Cut long story short I told them I would vote against extremely large bureaucratic system (that's what you lot are heading for if you Vote IN). I think they did agree with me but somehow are still unsure of the future of IN or OUT. 😆

Non elected officials with immense legislative power; operating under a practically autonomous remit.

Non auditable budget in which they spend my taxes

No control over borders.

we will have access to European and worlds markets.

People state we will lose our bargaining power by going alone, we will increase our bargaining power.

One day we will get a rational Brexiter able to state facts...its not today though.

Junkyard - lazarus
What did obama say again on this point?

I bet he was seen playing golf with the One Billion US$ Dollar PM from the far east (a certain PM that seem to have One Billion Dollar fund suddenly appearing in his personal account - not proven to be his because he said the fund was donated by the Saudi). Yes, One Billion US$! How much are all the Presidents and PM earn in a year combine by comparison? One Billion US$? Can you beat that?

Way to go President Obama I bet your Post Presidential income will now be secured for generations to come.

Junkyard - lazarus

Just a lie. Please see fact check

Fact check

its payments have been consistently found subject to significant error for the past 18 years.

It's ok kids, the accounts can be audited. 😀

That the figures don't add up to the tune of billions I'm sure isn't the salient point here. 💡

What did Obama say again on this point?

That we'd be back of the queue for TTIP.
Result! 😀

sbob - Member

What did Obama say again on this point?

That we'd be back of the queue for TTIP.
Result!

Let's play golf and tell me how to make more money?

tell me how to make more money?

Sue a government. 😉

In what sense is a smaller economic power more powerful than a more powerful one? What did obama say again on this point?

One day we will get a rational Brexiter able to state facts...its not today though.

In what way have you quoted the [b]facts?[/b]

You have countered my augments with nothing but flawed opinion

FWIW Ive already stated how our "smaller" economic power is in a stronger place to negotiate trade deals

You have countered my augments with nothing but flawed opinion

[b]One day we will get a rational Brexiter able to state facts...its not today though.[/b]

Random,

[b]facts[/b], you can't handle the facts.

FWIW Ive already [i]stated [/i]how our "smaller" economic power is in a stronger place to negotiate trade deals

Simply stating something doesn't make it true, something both sides seem to have a problem with although from my perspective the bullshitometer tends to go way higher with the outers pronouncements

Simply stating something doesn't make it true, something both sides seem to have a problem with although from my perspective the bullshitometer tends to go way higher with the outers pronouncements

The other chap is the one that brought up the issue of "facts"

Ive stated my opinion and not claimed it to be anything other than that

The vast majority of whats been posted here is opinion, ive seen no disclosures stating such so far.

FWIW both sides are arguing predominantly unknowns

In my opinion the Brexit side of the argument seems more aspirational versus Bremain who's biggest argument seems to be the terrifying aspect of going against apathy.

the other chap is the one that brought up the issue of "facts"

Why "facts" what you said was just untrue.

If i say Boris is not an MP , not a Politician and has green hair, its not really an opinion its just untrue. Your claims about the EU were that unfounded
Yours

the other chap

FWIW both sides are arguing predominantly unknowns

You say that like it is a bad thing that I pointed out your claims were factually incorrect

It seemed as if you were stating you're assertions were facts when they are your opinion (and largely wrong). I'll concede the argument on the audit in so far I was keeping it brief.

I should have stated they've been audited but refuse to sign off on it due to it highlights gross mismanagement of tax payers money

It then becomes a technicality as to the merits/value of the audit...in essence it may as well not exist

According to the annual report of the European Court of Auditors, seen by The Telegraph, £5.5 billion of the EU budget last year was misspent because of controls on spending that were deemed to be only “partially effective” by experts.

The audit, published this morning, found that £109 billion out of a total of £117 billion spent by the EU in 2013 was "affected by material error”.

It means that the Brussels accounts have not been given the all clear for 19 years running

That's a huge amount of tax payers money (I'm not just on about the £117 Billion for 2013) that hasn't been correctly accounted for

It seemed as if you were stating you're assertions were facts when they are your opinion (and largely wrong). I'll concede the argument on the audit .

So we both accept they were audited and that your point was incorrect and your "opinion" on facts was wrong. I have rarely seen an admission of such a basic error so shittly or ungraciously handled.

Perhaps we can move on the bureaucrats now and you can insult me some more about you getting some other basic facts wrong ?

🙄

So we both accept they were audited and that your point was incorrect and your "opinion" on facts was wrong. I have rarely seen an admission of such a basic error so shittly or ungraciously handled.

Perhaps we can move on the bureaucrats now and you can insult me some more about you getting some other basic facts wrong ?

I made a "bullet point" statement that whilst in the realm of semantics is correct

You seem to have taken a couple of forum post massively out of context (with regards me insulting you lol) and got uber defensive.

I'm going to move on cheers, enjoy the rest of your rational discussion

I made a "bullet point" statement that whilst in the realm of semantics is arguably correct

. I'll concede the argument on the audit .

Bye

I'll concede the argument on the audit in so far I was keeping it brief.

At least have the integrity to correctly quote someone

MEPs are allowed £45k per anum of expenses without needing to provide a receipt 8O. Thats how corrupt the place is.

@tmh we will be told to make a very large contribution when Greece blows up. The IMF want out - they demand a debt write off but they won't be part of it. Somwe won't be exposed via the IMF (we rae currently) as the IMF debt will be repaid prior to the write off.

Interesting poll data on Economists site. Remain ahead but what really caught my eye was the big lead Leave have with low-skilled, un-skilled and the unemployed 49 vs 36

Good point Jamby why can they not have such bastions of expenses probity that are the UK MP's

I'm going to move on cheers, enjoy the rest of your rational discussion

Oh and I guess that will be you not insulting me for you being wrong again 😕

jambalaya - Member
Remain ahead but what really caught my eye was the big lead Leave have with low-skilled, un-skilled and the unemployed 49 vs 36

No surprise there to me because that is exactly how the system works.

This mega bureaucratic EU system exist as a form to maintain those elites in their positions by ensuring those with low-skilled, un-skilled and etc remain in theirs. No difference from other Politburo.

Leaked Government memo prepared earlier his year shows UK is missing out on a potential £2.5bn pa benefit of a trade deal with Latin America as other EU countries such as France are blocking it to protect their farmers

[url= http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/05/21/trade-wars-memo-shows-eu-is-costing-uk-billions/ ]Linky[/url]

Good point Jamby why can they not have such bastions of expenses probity that are the UK MP's

Never mind that! According to our calm, measured and honest Sunday papers, there are approximately 12 million Turkish and Albanian rapists who will be moving in next door to you if we remain in the EU!

I'm voting in, mainly on the ground that the majority of people who tell me they are voting leave seem angry or thick, and sometimes a combination of the two. I don't think either side has campaign a particularly compelling or believable argument. But looking at the pulsing viens on your average red faced leave advocate, it just makes me think if we do vote leave it's all going to go a bit 'lord of the flies' here.

Never mind that! According to our calm, measured and honest Sunday papers, there are approximately 12 million Turkish and Albanian rapists who will be moving in next door to you if we remain in the EU!

They won't be moving in next to you. They'll be immediately occupying NHS beds. Do get your facts straight.

They'll be immediately occupying NHS beds. Do get your facts straight.

Simultaneously claiming benefits.

And sending them all home to mum.

who gets the child benefit payments

I bet their sending all their criminals here 😉
[img] [/img]

British criminals hiding in Spain are being targeted by police who are displaying their photos on screens in popular expat areas.
A 13ft (4m) digital screen is touring areas such as Benidorm, Malaga and Puerto Banus as part of Operation Captura.
So far, 68 out of 86 people have been apprehended.
The images include people wanted in connection with crimes such as murder and drug trafficking.

Trivialising and mocking those concerned about immigration is why UKIP are making such gains in Labour constituencies. Immigrants from Turkey or Eastern Europe don't impact my employment terms but they do theirs. The lack of a coherant policy on immigration as well as Corbyn's "redefining capitalism" economics could do to Labour in England what the SNP have achieved in Scotland.

DrJ don't worry there are large numbers of spare hospital beds and school places and Drac EU immigrants claim a higher proportion of in-work benefits than do native Brits, the average claim (of those making a claim) is around £6k

@mike Spain has always been a popular hide out for British "gangsters" - I wonder why that is ? How much effort do you think Spanish Police make in tracking down British criminals ? But hey ho with the super efficient Spanish security services on our side we are mich safer remember.