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Jambers is out, and presumably if the vote is out he'll be back to live here from the land of the cheese-eaters?
[url= http://www.currencywatch.co.uk/latest-news/722-british-pound-to-euro-and-dollar-inflation-employment-and-retail-sales ]£ surges against € after new poll shows remain ahead[/url]
AdamW - MemberWe are IN.
OUT.
IN.
OUT.
SHAKE IT ALL ABOUT.igmc
You should copy right that as a song ... "IN, OUT, IN, OUT, IN, OUT ... !" (watch out you will create friction there)
Jambers is out, and presumably if the vote is out he'll be back to live here from the land of the cheese-eaters?
Leave. Will continue to move around the world I am sure, either Remain or Leave with very little impact on that either way.
In other news, is Junker not just best news for the Leave Campaign 🙂 ? Interviewed in Le Monde today (various UK news coverage). Two choice comments.
If there is a Brexit the UK shouldn't expect any favours as a deserter - what's he proposing, being lined up and shot ? We don't want any of the EU's favours thanks vsry much. We want to do a deal on a commercial basis. Simple.No favours asked and none expected.
That the negotiation with David Cameron was a waste of time. Well he's quite right there but what he fails to understand is how democracy works, just because Junker has come up with a "solution" doesn't mean we have to accept it.A democracy is when voters give their verdict.
@Lifer higher exchange rates bad for exporters. There will undoubtably be volatility in the run-up to the Referendum, we have the impending Greek debt payment in July too - when will the default/debt write down/next fudge be and how will that impact the euro
Jammers, mate - I've just watched, on channel 4 news, a picture of Nigel Farage on the top of an open-topped bus, with a sound system playing, without a hint of irony, the theme from the Great Escape!
Seriously?
FFS!!!
Have a look at the company you're keeping, and have a word with yourself
Juncker = fanny
Well done to the Austrian for standing up to the EU bureaucrats.
Go on EU please ignore the ordinary folks. Yes, the ordinary folks are not intelligent enough to think for themselves. Yes, the EU should tell the ordinary folks they are wrong.
Jamby Junkers is saying what we have all been saying. Post exit when we negotiate with the EU for access they wont be very keen on helping us acquire that access - shall we explain the reasons to you again?
YOu have spent half this thread telling us how much negotiating power we will have and now he says we wont it proves your case despite being the opposite of the point you made. No matter what happens you will explain how it proves your view
Most folk look at facts and form views you shoe horn the facts into your view.
"If the British should say No, which I hope they don't, then life in the EU will not go on as before," he said. "The United Kingdom will have to accept being regarded as a third country, which won't be handled with kid gloves."If the British leave Europe, people will have to face the consequences -- we will have to, just as they will. It's not a threat but our relations will no longer be what they are today
He has said the truth basically they wont help us if we leave - why a anyone is surprised by this "revelation" is a greater mystery than the fact he said it.
An analogy someone with more brains than the out crowd made...
Like divorcing your wife, but still expecting her to do your washing and cook your tea every night
Steady now Binners thats a threat and just more fear - the other approach to facts Jamby uses on this "debate".
And tonight my polling card turned up.
Even got my name on it.
According to the Treasury we are facing an 18% drop in house prices. Haha. Gideon is such a tosser.
Dave really should get him to STFU
Given I am an avid 'out voter', I would rather give him a bigger shovel.Dave really should get him to STFU
Brexiteers display a paradoxical inferiority/superiority complex. (Aside from all the other negative characteristics which are all too clear to see.)
On one hand it's all "Look how we get bullied all over the EU. They won't let us play with their ball. They get all the nice looking girlfriends and boyfriends. They outvote us whenever we try to change the club password." But whoa there, as soon as we leave, and we get our "sovereignty" (LOLz) back were suddenly going to be so awesome, the big boys are all going to be queuing up to play with us...even though they've mostly said they'd normally play with other clubs and not lone wolves.
This does show Tory ineptitude. We kept hearing that Cameron and presumably Osborne would keep an open mind about a view on Brexit prior to gaining a deal for the UK on membership. So which part of Camerons "peace in our time" agreement from months ago with the EU deals with stopping house prices dropping 18%?
He should have always stated he was pro EU and told back benchers to put up or shut up.
I would rather give him a bigger shovel.
Play fair him v Jamby in a televised debate 😉
He should have always stated he was pro EU and told back benchers to put up or shut up.
He always did
TBH I think he did it for two reasons
1. To stop UKIP killing his party/ get more votes in the election.
2. he thought it would be a coalition and he would not actually have to do it.
I was sure JY he said he would advocate leaving if he did not get a good deal for Britain. To be honest, I was voting to stay whatever deal he got. The deal was tepid at best, and now he is saying that leaving the EU would be bad for peace in the EU, bad for business and house prices would lose a fifth of their value. I am not sure which part of temporary benefits limits stops WWIII or keeps house prices up.
I was sure JY he said he would advocate leaving if he did not get a good deal for Britain
Yes he said that once he was negotiating but it was never really in any doubt that he would accept what he got and argue for it. He lied basically; its what all politicians do
They are massively over egging the pudding and they seem wedded to increasingly bad forecasts
Its like both sides are competing to see who can say the most bat shit mental thing. I guess this is what happens when it blue on blue
Have a look at the company you're keeping, and have a word with yourself
He's not part of Vote Leave and in fact they"ve been publically critical of him descdibing him as a liability. The fact his campaigning doesn't appeal to you is of no relevance - you are not the target demographic as you are firmly Remain. As for company you're in there snug as a bug with Cameron, Osbourne, May amd of coure M. Junker he of the great tax dodge. Plus of course Corbyn the man of principal who voted against his own government 500 times but who now is in charge has deleted all his blog posts critical of the EU and reversed a lifetime of opposition. Remember it was Laboir who fought an election with a manifesto pledge to Leave.
Junker - it just shows how he's lost the plot. No favours as we don't need any, we are in the driving seat. All he has is political influence in the club as he's the unelected Commision head and we can be out voted. Once you take that power away from him he's nothing, look at the refugee crises, Austria, Hungary, Slovakia etc they've simply ignored him and Merkel and done what they want. He's powerless. We should do the same. Junker is desperate to try and change the record from the migrant crises and euro debacle so any headline will do.
I must have said a dozen times TV debates are worthless showboating, the search for the ultimate sound bite. Having seen more than enough in the US decades ago my mind is made up. I won't be watching these and I certainly wouldn't take part in one.
Cameron's negotiation was doomed to fail as the EU knew he could not admit defeat politically, so they could offer little/nothing and he'd still accept and try and claim victory - I posted this before
[img] http://jeffreyhill.typepad.com/.a/6a00d8341d417153ef01b7c817f5b9970b-800wi [/img]
😀junkyard
I guess this is what happens when it blue on blue
Migration crises dogs breakfast. Greek coirt rukes Greece cannot deport Syrians back to Turkey - contradicting a key element if the EU "solution" to the crises.
[url= http://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/may/20/syrian-refugee-wins-appeal-against-forced-return-to-turkey ]Guardian[/url]
Cameron's negotiation was doomed to fail as the EU knew he could not admit defeat politically, so they could offer little/nothing and he'd still accept and try and claim victory - I posted this before
Of course they were it was done to appease the euro skeptics in his party and to give them something to cheer about. The cartoon is interesting, replace Cameron with Borris and you have the future or the UK out of the EU, just a sad little nation clinging to the belief that it matters.
@mike you've posted one of Leave's key messages, Remainers just want to do Britain down and have no confidence in our nation. We are one of rhe richest and most innovative countries in the world. Within the EU we are an economic powerhouse second only to Germany, far more successful and influential than Spain and Italy, France too imo. The EU needs us badly, they have quite rightly negotiated from a position of strength with regard to reform as we have backed ourselves into a corner with successive Treaties/agreements and Junker decided he could afford to bet on a Remain vote.
You are posting from a nation of 25m people which does quite nicely thanks. Independent, democratic with controlled immigration and without the beaurocratic ties of a lidicrous polital organisation holding it back
I'm posting from a nation that is looking to build closer ties with it's neighbours.
I'm not trying to put the UK down but point out that as part of a bigger group the UK stands taller.
The EU may need the UK, but it can live without it. I've still not see enough of a convincing argument that the UK can be better without the EU. Forgive me for coming back to this time and time again but most of the arguments you have posted have been proven to be wrong, made up or exaggerated.
Cameron's negotiation was doomed to fail as the EU knew he could not admit defeat politically, so they could offer little/nothing and he'd still accept and try and claim victory - I posted this before
Still doesn't make it true.
Cameron talked a lot of tosh about a reformed Europe hence there were absurd expectations re the negotiations. They were never going to produce reforms of Europe. They were about clarifying the UK's position with Europe especially re €, Schengen, borders, legislation and then the trivialities that Brexiteers like to pretend are important - money sent home (yes those squillions). He secured most of what any sensible person would want - although the eh exiting squillions remain gazillions - and (overselling apart, OK massive overselling apart) largely did a good job.
Does the summary need to be published for a fourth time?
The thing that has disappointed me most in this is that out camp haven't really explained what our post exit trading arrangements will look like. They knew a year ago that we were going to have this poll and I think if you campaigning for change you need to spell out what your plan B is as you are saying "plan A is not working."
We all know that the EU is not perfect. its a group of 28 countries so I reckon its certain that no one will like all aspects of the EU all the time. But I'd to think that the people campaigning for out can at least explain why it would be better.
Even some basics would help. We are clearly going to have to negotiate with a pissed off EU, so it would be worth knowing what we would expect to give way on and what we know the EU would have to concede.
I thought Gove's intervention regarding the NHS presented a very compelling argument...
Especially with yesterday's NHS deficit figures and analysis of the causes
Surprised it hasn't been picked up on here!
Gove - Best "Remain" speech of the week 😯
you've posted one of Leave's key messages, Remainers just want to do Britain down and have no confidence in our nation
I have no confidence in my ability to win a world Downhill event I am not doing myself down I am accurately describing reality. You ought to try this one day rather than wrap yourself in the jingoistic flag of patriotic hope.....in Paris.
Does the summary need to be published for a fourth time?
I have yet to find the number of times that jamby needs to be shown a fact to accept it. Generally he tells you what one of his friends thinks
Endured Gove on the radio and his "absolute" confidence in his made up data. Don't they feel embarrassed?
Forgive me for coming back to this time and time again but most of the arguments you have posted have been proven to be wrong, made up or exaggerated.
Thats just bollix @mike. You are starting to reguritate the nonsense of others. If we Remain we'll be dragged into the mire of a sovereign debt crisis which is going to make 2008 onwards look like an afternoon tea party. Add that on top of the economic stagnation in europe today and you have the future of Remain. Talk me through Australia's new trading arrangements - they accept freedom of movement, a court and un-democratic law making body superior to their own, they make a big net payment in return for exporting less than they import. They will NEVER sign such an agreement. Australia's controlled immigration doesn't even let you live where you want in the country if accepted - Perth yes, Sydney no.
@tmh not a single sentence of Cameron's agreement is legally binding, its a memo of understanding as it where. Its a fantasy.
@arnieb - the US and China have no trade agreements with the EU, if we don't neogtiate one which [b]suits us[/b] we don't have to bother. You don't need a trade agreement to trade and thencurrent EU setup doesn't suit us. The the flip side the EU needs our trade flows so its my view they'll be keen to secure one. Combine that with the economic disaster above and you have our negotiating position. The politicains at the EU commision are already pissed off at us as we didn't join the euro (fiasco).
Remind me of the U.K. Contribution to the European Stability Fund?
So do you think that the UK is going to part of the Euro, that Schengen doesn't apply to us etc.....?
Gove is an odious little toad
But his comments yesterday were fascinating - essentially 5M EU "economic migrants" will sink the NHS.
Sorry, that's a classic case of logic fail....
Let's put migrants to one side, for one moment. The UKs "cradle to grave" welfare system, including the NHS either works or doesn't.
The system is designed to be taxpayer funded. The deal is:
- you're born
- the state provides an education
- you work, paying tax & NI to fund the system
- the state provides healthcare and pension support
- you die
Yesterday's NHS deficit figures were clear. The funding crises has two clear causes
1. Reduced budget provision (Govt austerity)
2. Increased demand
BUT. the increased unfunded demand is from pensioners with multiple complex problems. That is where the model breaks. Funding over 30-40 years of working and paying taxes does not match the draw on the kitty made by people who are now living 30-40 years in retirement.
What we NEED are MORE working age taxpayers
In that respect, 5M additional taxpayer will only help the NHs
Paris at the moment indeed Junky. We (Mrs B and I) where talking about the future over dinner last night with a friend and ex-colleague of mine who's just relocated to Tel Aviv, sees little opportunity here and didn't feel safe enough to come back to Europe from Asia either. I think with a Remain vote we'll look at California if we can get in which will be difficult given my age, 2-3 year project probably to make it happen. Backup plan is Switzerland for part of the year at least. Having lived in Asia its quite stark how they see Europe as having the history and character but its not seen as a place of economic vitality, yes Chinese multi-millionaires buy in London as a bolt hole in case China closes down but economically the opportunity is in the East.
I've laid out my future for fhe EU, the euro debacle could happen as soon as July but probably 2017. Our bailout contribution (loan/gift) - £30bn, £40bn, £50bn who knows ? Europe sliding downwards economically and falling further behind the rest of the world. Let's see how it maps out, then we can come back and take stock here.
rkk01 - Member
What we NEED are MORE working age taxpayers
In that respect, 5M additional taxpayer will only help the NHs
Also worth reiterating, in that context, that EU migrants provide a NET BENEFIT to the UK.
What we NEED are MORE working age taxpayers
You're right, but there's a lag. There's a period between immigrants turning up and infrastructure being scaled to support them, and given the basic incompetence we have with doing anything in this country that is going to be a big if not indefinite lag.
So he's right too. Catch 22.
What we NEED are MORE working age taxpayersIn that respect, 5M additional taxpayer will only help the NHs
That only makes sense if you assume these people will leave the UK on retirement. We don't pay enough tax/ni to cover pensions and future nhs bills and so many of the new immigrants are in low paid work paying very little in taxes.
Staying in the EU will be devastating for ordinary working people. We already get pages and pages of complaints about income inequality, what will another 100m low paid new EU citizens with freedommof movement do to wages in the UK ?
@tmh Osbourne managed to weasel out of the request last time as Junker agreed a contribution would be very negative wrt the Referedum. You can remind me of our contribution after the Greek default/debacle etc
Cameron on Turkey and the EU. Off to fettle bike and go for a ride, see you all later
They definitely don't have immigrants working low paid jobs in California
You are starting to reguritate the nonsense of others
Others meaning everyone on the forum
No one defends your version of facts in any thread ever- see thm I told you it was loads
It like his argument...nothing at all.Remind me of the U.K. Contribution to the European Stability Fund?
@tmh not a single sentence of Cameron's agreement is legally binding, its a memo of understanding as it where. Its a fantasy.
Full fact say you are being inaccurate with the truth again- basically its all legally binding some under international law and some under EU law.
You are pedalling porkies again or as mike said
most of the arguments you have posted have been proven to be wrong, made up or exaggerated.
You just did again whilst refuting this point.
https://fullfact.org/europe/explaining-eu-deal-it-legally-binding/
SO that is how you are interpreting Junkers "bullying" that "proved your point". He has said they wont do this and everyone knows they wont. they will punish us to discourage others from following, its not in the EU interest for us to secure a good trade deal or to flourish as it will encourage others to leave, they want the UK to fail when we go and we still need them more than we need them as we harm them where as they cripple us. Amusingly you cannot even do the maths 🙄The the flip side the EU needs our trade flows so its my view they'll be keen to secure one.
I know you will claim this is bullying but is just "business" .
Your argument is contradictory, incoherent, illogical and utterly false in every possible way imaginable.
I suggest you get it chiseled as a pledge on a massive stone and carry it around with you 😉
I think with a Remain vote we'll look at California
I will get that chiselled in stone and use that as my campaigning slogan 😛
[i]BUT. the increased unfunded demand is from pensioners with multiple complex problems. That is where the model breaks. Funding over 30-40 years of working and paying taxes does not match the draw on the kitty made by people who are now living 30-40 years in retirement.[/i]
+1
My folks retired at 60 (now 80); Dad reckons he's got more out of the system in the last 20 years than he put in for the previous 40 years (decent earner too).
He's pretty much using the NHS every week including at least 4 weeks in hospital last year, and many many days/weeks before (due to long-term illness). He also has 4 carer visits per day and Mum gets £80 carers allowance on top of all the other allowances/pensions etc.
Mum is healthy, but still has the usual ailments that require too many visits.