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... next thing you know we are shitsurfing the wave to Trumpsville,
Phrase of the year. 😀
is there something unrepresentative about people who wear odd clothes to ride bikes down slopes?
Well if the STW audi driving IT manager stereotype is true, then these people presumably possess at least a few braincells which would explain the one-sidedness on this issue. And if it is an out vote, the people who will vote us out are not on here, but either propping up the bar in some hellhole flat-roofed local or sitting around in gentleman's clubs reminiscing about the empire days.
@dazh a post dripping with stereotypes plus of course the "if they don't agree with me they must be thick" swipe too. My parents are lifelong Labour supporters and voted "for" in '75, anti-Monarchy too btw.
All is well in Europe ... left wing youth's reaction to Hollande's attempt to reform Labour laws and reduce unemployment .. political union anyone ? Chapeau to the male (armed) police officer for maintaining his cool after a molitov cocktail was thrown into the back of the car whilst he and his female colleague where inside
By the way the Channel ports of Le Havre and Caen where blocked again today (3 days now) as truck drivers complained about being undercut by Eastern European companies
Is that video supposed to show what greater political union with Europe means. Are they showing clips of EDL marches on French TV's and saying the French people would be better off if Brexit happened as we want no part of this type of politics? I doubt it. You are just peddling fear again Jambers.
Which one of these things is eu law jamby@mike and others - the point being that this is the tone of the EU ('heart of' isn't the same as 'running it' is it ?), it is this logic which is sat across the table from us and it is this thinking which out votes us again and again. If we are outside the EU we can focus our negotiating efforts, like the US are doing, on growth markets and regions like Asia
So basically it's not the fault of the eu but you needed something to point at. Well at least leave is consistent.... The French could change their labour laws without the eu stopping them. [b]FACT[/b]
To recycle an old phrase
If you can't say something without making stuff up then don't say something.
Or perhaps like Boris appears to be you are starting to believe yourself.
The French seem to love violence protest don't they? I mean can't they protest properly without using violence like the British unions? Or should British Unions emulate the French? Burn cars, damage properties, going awol etc? I mean firebombing a policeman in his car? How low is that?
So far from you chewkw, if we stay in the EU we are to be scared of an onslaught of millions of shifty types bearing Turkish passports, and French trade unionist protesting methods. What should we be wary of next, Austrian child minders with a sideline offering basement conversions? I hate to be crass but some of the reasons to leave are ridiculous, divisive, selfish and full of fear.
athgray - Member
So far from you chewkw, if we stay in the EU we are to be scared of an onslaught of millions of shifty types bearing Turkish passports, and French trade unionist protesting methods. What should we be wary of next, Austrian child minders with a sideline offering basement conversions? I hate to be crass but some of the reasons to leave are ridiculous, divisive, selfish and full of fear.
I am afraid those are inaccurate assumptions as I am not trying to peddle fear on people but then you would disagree wouldn't you?
Anyway, the answer is there is Nothing to fear so just Vote OUT.
At the end of the day if the outcome is not decisive then we should witness a divided society in the making. I am sure the Vote OUT can always do the "Sturgeon" again. i.e. referendum after referendum until there is a decisive outcome. I think a decisive outcome should be around 65% to 75%?
After more than 60 years it's time to get out. Change is good is it not? The whole system need rejuvenation and you can only do so by taking the lead and not being led.
Nothing to fear but am really bored with this EU bureaucrats now ... Simply bored! Am bored! You know bored? You know?
After more than 60 years it's time to get out. Change is good is it not?
Who knows perhaps you'd like to try the next 30 years as a woman, after all nothing to fear, change is good etc.
Nothing to fear but am really bored with this EU bureaucrats now ... Simply bored! Am bored! You know bored? You know?
Really it's as if you come across as a toddler with the remote control
My point is this shows how difficuot it is to form a political union with such disparate countries, and the French are one of the most developed and most like us. Poland is currently trying to ban abortion nearly totally, as it is 100.000's of Poles go abroad for abortions amd we have people dying in Ireland as "we don't do abortions here"
mikewsmith - Member
Who knows perhaps you'd like to try the next 30 years as a woman, after all nothing to fear, change is good etc.
Do you have to wait that long? There is always every term isn't it?
No, you do not have to have gender reassignment to try again.
Will [b]you[/b] live that long to see change that is the question?
Really it's as if you come across as a toddler with the remote control
Funny that is exactly what I am thinking. The toddler is the system that has to rely on a larger EU bureaucratic system for guidance as they cannot stand on the own feet. Guess who and which system I am referring to?
Been racking my brains but no, you've lost me there. Seems to bear no resemblance to any system in the real world.
My point is this shows how difficuot it is to form a political union with such disparate countries, and the French are one of the most developed and most like us.
True but so what? We are not seeking greater political union.
Poland is currently trying to ban abortion nearly totally, as it is 100.000's of Poles go abroad for abortions amd we have people dying in Ireland as "we don't do abortions here"
True but so what? Not relevant to our referendum.
My point is this shows how difficuot it is to form a political union with such disparate countries
Ok so we cannot be in because of ever closer union and at the same time we wont ever be able to achieve it because we are so disparate...when you make your mind up what the issue is perhaps we could discuss it?
Poland is currently trying to ban abortion nearly totally
So it wants to be like Northern Ireland?
Again what is your point - we have diversity within the UK, we have diversity within the EU. Perhaps it was a complaint about religious folk?
Junkyard - lazarusOk so we cannot be in because of ever closer union and at the same time we wont ever be able to achieve it because we are so disparate...when you make your mind up what the issue is perhaps we could discuss it?
Was thinking just the same 😆
FYI
Paxman in Brussels .... tonight 20:00 BBC1
Ro5ey thanks - will catch that on iPlayer later
JY my point is an attempt at ever closer Union with a group of fundamentally very different countries is prone to be a disaster (yes Ireland, Poland and others are dominated by the Christian Church in a way I doubt you'd be comfortable with). We've seen it with the euro, you can't have a single currency (which actually works) when you have governments with such different policies (possibly legitimately due to very different economic circumstances - as Varoufakis says Greece needs a massive currency devaluation but it's can't have one) - apologies bracket diarrhoea
True but so what? We are not seeking greater political union.
@tmh that makes my point, we may not be [b]seeking[/b] it but that's what we will get getting whether we like it or not (we'll ave our say of course, all what 6% of it when it comes to voting)
No we won't - that is very clear and stated without ambiguity in the recent deal which I have posted three times already.
There is no guarantee that it will happen, but if it does (needs to if € has any chance) we are not involved. THERE IS NO AMBIGUITY HERE.
After more than 60 years it's time to get out.
I know time flies when you're enjoying yourself, but [b]60 [/b]years???
FACTCHECK time? I thought UK joined in 1973...
Nothing to fear but am really bored with this EU bureaucrats now ... Simply bored! Am bored! You know bored? You know?
Good to know that the Country is being divided over such prosaic concerns
rkk01 - Member
After more than 60 years it's time to get out.
I know time flies when you're enjoying yourself, but 60 years???
FACTCHECK time? I thought UK joined in 1973...
I think the whole concept started after WWII ...
Nothing to fear but am really bored with this EU bureaucrats now ... Simply bored! Am bored! You know bored? You know?
Good to know that the Country is being divided over such prosaic concerns
You think too much. Relax, chill ... Vote OUT.
Bureaucracy is a major concerned of mine ...
I'm adding Gove to the list of bare faced liars!
Remain MIGHT do better if they stopped telling such bare faced porkies....
this paxman program has been decent.
Not so sure about that
Absolutely no case for the Remain as far as l could tell
Actually lm going to take that back.
Nick Clegg was very good.
Sovereignty is "expanded" in EU
Remain MIGHT do better if they stopped telling such bare faced porkies....
Blimey my bad I meant Leave!
LONG DAY...
😳
Brilliant
Well written summary
http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/0ac5b098-1ce2-11e6-a7bc-ee846770ec15.html#axzz498bcOvTU
Odd bedfellows in this debate all round. Rarely agree with Stephens but he nails this one.
Ro5ey - Member
Actually lm going to take that back.Nick Clegg was very good.
Sovereignty is "expanded" in EU
preferred the concept of shared myself, but aye expanded works too.
I was surprised by the Paxman program, thought it was quite anti-EU. Was it, or is that due to my natural anti-EU stance?
fairly balanced I thought.sbob - Member
I was surprised by the Paxman program, thought it was quite anti-EU. Was it, or is that due to my natural anti-EU stance?
Just comparing it to the bias the BBC are accused of, where every left winger thinks it's a government run conspiracy, and every right winger thinks it's produced by commies.
I'm aware I could be prejudiced!
@sbob yes indeed
Leave MIGHT do better if they stopped telling such bare faced porkies....
We knew what you meant 😉 Wheras Remain (IMF / OECD) give us only the most rose tinted scenarios in their favour
@tmh so in the future we have a political Union with all new members obliged to be in the euro if not already. We are protected by Cameron's letter - eh ? Its not protected via treaty change and some believe it could be annulled by the European Court. Europe is on its knees and theyve offered us nothing in the way of reform, what happens when the EU is stronger economically and more tightly bound with us on the outside, how will we be treated then ?
jamba, surely the 5th biggest economy in the world should be able to dominate with in europe?
I mean if a few eurocrats can boss the uk around within a EU, how does that bode for a UK outside the EU, when it comes to dealing with the other large economies, Ie us, china, japan and germany(backed up by the might of a USoE).
looks like a fairly weak position to me, never mind, boris, gove and farage will save us! 😆
I recognise the French anti-police riots where perhaps a sloght stretch but tonight the French Police have announced they believe the perpetrators came from Belgium specially for the "event" 😯
jamba, surely the 5th biggest economy in the world should be able to dominate with in europe?
We are easily outvoted and we are not in the euro. I long believed there where only 2 positions, in the euro or out of the EU and as such I thought the euro was the way to go. Now I see we dodged a bullet re euro but consistent with my old view we should be out.
so how do you square the circle of getting outvoted 10% of the time, while being in the EU, with being outside the EU, but wanting to have access to EU markets, thus having to abide by EU law, and having no vote on that law what so ever?We are easily outvoted and we are not in the euro. I long believed there where only 2 positions, in the euro or out of the EU and as such I thought the euro was the way to go. Now I see we dodged a bullet re euro but consistent with my old view we should be out.
the latter is a silly position, no?
I think the British people voting to leave the EU would be a louder voice than whatever voting influence we currently have.
ETA: I also think it could be the catalyst for great change, even if forum big hitters don't want to discuss it.
yet more of the establishment have been drafted in..
[img] http://ichef.bbci.co.uk/news/624/cpsprodpb/11412/production/_89747607_untitled-1.jp g" target="_blank">
http://ichef.bbci.co.uk/news/624/cpsprodpb/11412/production/_89747607_untitled-1.jp g"/> [/img]
The letter, organised by the Britain Stronger in Europe campaign, says: "Britain is not just stronger in Europe, it is more imaginative and more creative, and our global creative success would be severely weakened by walking away."
It adds: "Leaving Europe would be a leap into the unknown for millions of people across the UK who work in the creative industries, and for the millions more at home and abroad who benefit from the growth and vibrancy of Britain's cultural sector."
"We believe that being part of the EU bolsters Britain's leading role on the world stage. Let's not become an outsider shouting from the wings."
Perhaps not the passion demanded the leave lot but somehow well spoken and articulate language is more powerful for me. That and not making stuff up 😉
This is a major piece of my voting rationale. Neither Crney nor the IMF will mention it.
But as elephants in the room go, this was the smaller, Indian version. The equivalent of the bigger, African elephant was the shocking state of the eurozone after the failure of the single currency experiment. This went unremarked by Carney, although it is relevant to the debate about Europe.
[url= http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/may/20/brexit-best-answer-to-dying-eurozone-eu-undemocratic-elite ]Guardian (book advertorial !)[/url]
Guardian (book advertorial !)
Despite the book-pushing, that's the best argument I've read yet for voting out. It puts us lefty dreamers in a right pickle. Vote to remain part of a corrupt, undemocratic neo-liberal sinking ship, or vote for a new financial crisis and possible depression, and hand even more power to our own corrupt neo-liberal fanboys.
Jambas - not sure if I have mentioned it but we are specifically excluded from the € project. Might not be relevant, but thought it worth saying!!
I don't think you did, or more accurately if you did it hasn't registered 🙂 Did I mention that whether we are in the euro or not we are tied to its fortunes, not least via the European Stability Fund (the one George ran tail between his legs to Junker last year to avoid us being dragged into the Greek fiasco ahead of a Referendum he knew was coming but which we won't dodge in the event of a default/restructuring)
@daz if the not-neo-liberals (left?) had a complelling proposition we'd vote for them, its quite simple.
Perhaps not the passion demanded the leave lot but somehow well spoken and articulate language is more powerful for me. That and not making stuff up
To be honest, a bunch of luvvies is a very big turn off for voting Remain, but I will hold my nose.
So - page 60. Are we in or out?
plyphon - Member
So - page 60. Are we in or out?
We are OUT.
We are IN.
OUT.
IN.
OUT.
SHAKE IT ALL ABOUT.
igmc