Sorry I looked away for a minute. Is this the why on earth are we committing economic suicide (while taking as many down with us as possible) thread or the who's the most racist thread?
That seems to be the long and short of it, just look at Express/Mail headlines or most of Farage's soundbites, who's great grandfather was an immigrant. 😕
That's easy - it's Morris Dancers. Allegedly.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/08/25/shrewsbury-folk-festival-bans-blackface-morris-dancers/
Once you learn that the purpose of debate is to persuade people to vote for your side, rather than generate facebook likes from like-minded individuals, you might actually achieve something.
And to be able to call out the other side and dare to ask them to provide proof for their claims.... Debating brexiters goes generally one way they argue a point, ignore requests to prove it and change the subject when provided with evidence. Followed by a bit if a flounce from the delicate snowflakes
Also for the record - I would never dream of dressing up like that.
When you have the established thing that brings everyone together and is generally regarded as a really sweet and community-driven moment, how would you proceed? Especially in a country where everything is slow to change as people default to taking everyone else's point of view into consideration. In my experience the issue is that they don't want to lose the coming-together, and falling out over the colour is harming that as well.
Overall the Dutch are keen to have good relations with everybody, they built everything on trade after all. Let them get on with adapting, but the harder you push they harder they want to push back [reminds me of a certain referendum]...
Anyway - I fear this is a little OT. Again, in case anyone wants to paint* me as racist: [b]I think it looks terrible[/b], but I also think only the Dutch know the meaning of the cultural event. Some things just can't translate - like "gezellig" "nog" or "slag" which just don't have English equivalents.
*pink with sparkles please.
He's actually generally said to be black from having come down the chimney,
I have heard that rationalisation - I'm not sure how chimneys give you curly hair and big lips!
After a good chat with her this morning on the way to school, here is the considered opinion of my 12 (nearly 13) year old....
Her generation have been totally betrayed by a much older, selfish generation who are inherently racist, and not very bright, and are depriving her of the opportunities that they themselves enjoyed
Difficult to argue with that assessment really
Would you like to come and join me - I've got tickets to The Black and White Mistrels show - they'll be singing Mammy ?We could take a pot of jam with us, you know, the one with the Gollywog on the top ?
No ?
I watched the B&W Minstrel show, I ate robinsons jam, I do believe that there was a toy golliwog in the toy cupboard, and there were frequent appearences in books.
Guess what? It didn't make me a racist, I wasn't at the time and I am not now.
I can even look at those images and not be a racist.
What exactly is your point? Apart from saying racism is ok in this country because it's worse in The Netherlands. 😕
I watched the B&W Minstrel show, I ate robinsons jam, I do believe that there was a toy golliwog in the toy cupboard, and there were frequent appearences in books.
Guess what? It didn't make me a racist, I wasn't at the time and I am not now.
I did too, and you know what? I'm not sure I can put my hand on my heart and say it never affected the way I saw things, if not now, at some point in my life.
I also read "Little Black Sambo" books, which incidentally are still on sale in Denmark.
After a good chat with her this morning on the way to school, here is the considered opinion of my 12 (nearly 13) year old....Her generation have been totally betrayed by a much older, selfish generation who are inherently racist, and not very bright, and are depriving her of the opportunities that they themselves enjoyed
Difficult to argue with that assessment really
Too bad our "leaders" are not as smart as your 12 year old 🙁
My daughter (older than 12) was not happy about discovering that in a couple of years she may only be able to see her mum on holiday visits.
DrJ - Member
He's actually generally said to be black from having come down the chimney
I have heard that rationalisation - I'm not sure how chimneys give you curly hair and big lips!
No it sucks. Anyway, I am sorry you had a bad experience here. I can only say from my time in Gelderland [pretty damn rural] the majority of people are kind, generous and don't want to offend. Your posts usually make me smile, so let me know if you happen to travel near Arnhem and we can have a beer and swap stories.
so let me know if you happen to travel near Arnhem and we can have a beer and swap stories.
Deal 🙂
Look on the bright side binners, if your daughter is that articulate at 12 then she is destined to great things!ww
+1 - it'll be smart people like her (and I'll add my similarly aged daughter to that) will be the ones who dig us back out of this mess.
and are depriving her of the opportunities that they themselves enjoyed
We are going to lose the Greggs Steak Bake when we leave the EU, how come this didn't emerge in the campaign, it would have been a game changer.
And to be able to call out the other side and dare to ask them to provide proof for their claims....
And you know what, by doing so you fell right into their trap, as Dominic Cummings made clear, the £350 million figure was a tactic, they knew it was an exaggeration, but also knew while everyone discussed our EU contribution, Leave were gaining votes. The Leave campaign are no doubt grateful for your efforts, you were really stitched up like a kipper.
The Leave campaign are no doubt grateful for your efforts, you were really stitched up like a kipper.
In a bigger way they stitched up the people ho believed them, those that will suffer the most and gain nothing.
Regardless of the way of the modern world it's just not cricket as they say.
Look on the bright side binners, if your daughter is that articulate at 12 then she is destined to great things!
Luckily she takes after her mum Hurty! 😉
And you know what, by doing so you fell right into their trap, as Dominic Cummings made clear, the £350 million figure was a tactic, they knew it was an exaggeration, but also knew while everyone discussed our EU contribution, Leave were gaining votes. The Leave campaign are no doubt grateful for your efforts, you were really stitched up like a kipper.
Is this what our democracy has come to - tricking people into voting a certain way by avoiding substantive debate? Sad.
binners daughter for PM!
Leave were gaining votes. The Leave campaign are no doubt grateful for your efforts, you were really stitched up like a kipper.
I think that nicely exemplifies what the right are all about these days
I can only say from my time in Gelderland [pretty damn rural] the majority of people are kind, generous and don't want to offend.
Currently watching Braindead on Amazon Prime which is a stunningly good show, quite appropriate to this thread in many ways. They (re) made the point that people can be lovely individually but vicious when you get them together.
Funny that, isn't it?
Is this what our democracy has come to - tricking people into voting a certain way by avoiding substantive debate?
Yep. As I've always said, the concept only works if everyone is a rational actor. And we are far from that. So how to fix it? As in almost everything in the world, the bottom line is EDUCATION.
@gofastr as a point of order I made no comment about Black Piet, I do know my mate with a Dutch wife thinks he's a very "dodgy" chatacter in today's world.
tjagain - Member
I find the allegations of racism in the netherlands being worse than here laughable. I have family in the netherlands and while there is some racism there and they even have their own farage figure the racism and xenophobia in the netherlands is nothing like as prevalent as it is in the UK
TJ "Holland's Farage" is on track to be the largest party in Parliament after the elections. The Dutch where sufficiently hacked off with the EU to pass a law requiring ANY Treaty modification to require a binding vote in Parliament. They are arguably far more Eurosceptic than the UK.
Being concerned about the level of immigration amd the inability to control it is neither racist nor xenophobic, its just asking that the UK be like the 150 other countries in the world not part of the EU
tricking people into voting a certain way by avoiding substantive debate?
Remain totally failed to show what the real figure was, eg "its ok it's only £190m" per week and how that represented value for money when we have a trade deficit.
£363m a week comes from Government Budget report. You can ask the EU what our net contribution is and you will get more than 30 different answers. Chaos.
@br I am willing to bet our "exit" payment will be limited to MEP pensions or less. EU is facing massive budget problems with cost of Greek default and contagion, increased NATO member spending demanded by Trump, excessive national debts giving little room for manoeuvre all in the face of very weak economies already facing youth unemployment of 25-50%.
Kimbers. - why is leave synonymous with the right?
. The Leave campaign are no doubt grateful for your efforts, you were really stitched up like a kipper.
:D. A tad too subtle perhaps!!! 😀
Is this what our democracy has come to - tricking people into voting a certain way by avoiding substantive debate? Sad.
You misunderstand the tactic, they weren't trying to trick people to vote for them, they were trying to trick the other side into spending time arguing on territory that suited them. You always want to fight on the terrain that suits you, that has been the case since time immemorial, Cicero certainly understood its importance.
Kimbers. - why is leave synonymous with the right?
Because the right are wrong and Leave is wrong too.
]£363m a week comes from Government Budget report. You can ask the EU what our net contribution is and you will get more than 30 different answers. Chaos.
Jambas you guys won. It's ok. You do not need to keep posting stuff that is untrue. Enjoy the victory but don't kick the unfortunates when they are down. That too much!!!
At least he is partially correct 😉
they were trying to trick the other side into spending time arguing on territory that suited them. You always want to fight on the terrain that suits you,
Always true but leave were also weak on those grounds, the lies were there to make it all sound worse and keep the lies in the press.
Oh, it was indeed cranberry that posted the 90% figure! Sheesh, I should coffee before posting. My apologies, Jambalaya.
Looking at that post again - the "cars catching fire" bit is odd. The Dutch set fireworks off in the street for newyears, EVERYWHERE. But they only do it for 4 days a year 'else it's illegal*.
Not sure what that has to do with anything, however.
*they do also do this, however. ALL THE SODDING TIME. FOR DAYS AND DAYS...
The Dutch far right party is predicted to get 21% in the legislative elections and have very little influence as it's a proportional representation system, Jamba. The Dutch population is very much in favour of the Euro and less eurosceptic than the UK. They express their euroscepticism by voting against changes to EU treaties and proposing reforms. Just as the UK could have done while still a member but will no longer have any say at all in.
[url= http://www.lesechos.fr/monde/europe/0211623127600-a-suivre-en-2017-les-pays-bas-premier-test-de-la-vigueur-de-lextreme-droite-en-europe-2055211.php ]Les Echos on the Netherlands.[/url]
[url= http://www.thedailymash.co.uk/politics/politics-headlines/no-really-whats-the-plan-though-may-asked-20170118120398 ]The Mash nails it yet again[/url]
TMH I'll keep replying as long as others keep posting. List of Remain campaign messages ...
"It's OK it's only £190m a week"
"We want to stay in the EU and reform it (translation = the EU is broken amd needs fixing)"
"Anyone worried about the pressure on public services and housing as a result of immigration is a racist and we know they are bad people"
Edukator, don't agree about the eurosceptism, see requirement for Referendum on any treaty change. Quite rightly there is zero trust and no desire for further movements towards a super-state. Younare right about the system of government, at present the other parties say they will not form a coalition but the reality may look quite different.
[url= http://www.thedailymash.co.uk/news/international/if-youre-being-a-tax-haven-we-only-really-want-london-say-investors-20170118120390 ]And unfortunately, they're probably on the money with this one[/url]
It's OK it's only £190m a week"
"We want to stay in the EU and reform it (translation = the EU is broken amd needs fixing)"
"Anyone worried about the pressure on public services and housing as a result of immigration is a racist and we know they are bad people"
What does the 190m do for the UK? How much will leaving cost?
What does leaving fix? Do we break more by leaving than we can by staying?
Anyone quoting lies about immigration and playing it hard, making stuff up and exaggerating things is probably a racist and ends calling one.
Is this what our democracy has come to - tricking people into voting a certain way by avoiding substantive debate?
Exactly what it has come to.
The same people voting so can't blame intelligence/education/gullibility on being tricked. All that has changed is the level of populism taking advantage of those who are unable to work things out for themselves.
We either have to stop populism/control the twisted BS or only let people vote when they have evidenced that they have a basic understanding of things they are voting on (not exactly democratic)
There's racism in every country.
In 20 years in the UK, I haven't seen more or less .
But the UK Is not United any more. The Politicians have really ****ed up this time.
only let people vote when they have evidenced that they have a basic understanding of things they are voting on
I've often thought that general elections would have very different results if after you made your vote you had to validate it by correctly selecting five manifesto promises from an anonymous set all promises made by all parties.
Or perhaps, start with that anonymous set, pick the manifesto promises you agree with and your vote is cast on that basis.
Not sure if someone has done this in the UK or not
https://votecompass.abc.net.au
Results are often interesting (liberal means right wing here)
But the UK Is not United any more.
It never was.
1940
What does the 190m do for the UK? How much will leaving cost?
^this
Even at the original £350 million, it's £5.50 per week per person in the UK. A truly earth shattering amount. And of course it's money for nothing as we get absolutely nothing back in return. Zero.
History will look back on this as one of the greatest cons of all time
TMH I'll keep replying as long as others keep posting
You could try replying with some truthful and constructive answers. That might be an idea.
Even at the original £350 million, it's £5.50 per week per person in the UK. A truly earth shattering amount. And of course it's money for nothing as we get absolutely nothing back in return. Zero
The smiley/irony emoji is on the upper right hand side of the posting box. Avoids anyone taking this seriously by mistake. 😉
I pay for club memberships all the time. I pay them money. But I get stuff in return.
(translation = the EU is broken amd needs fixing)
This morning I discovered the door in our hall has loose hinge screws so it doesn't close and needs fixing pretty urgently.
I hope that I don't get home later to discover my wife has moved all our stuff into a tent in the road and thrown away our house keys... 🙁
Johnson's lost the plot...
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