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and I'm more than happy to get far far away from these loonies.
That'd be the flaw in your plan
We can't leave Europe, just lose* influence in the EU
*for sbob
That'd be the flaw in your plan
Ah, Blackadder.
"There was, of course, one tiny flaw in the plan."
"What was that then?"
"It was bollocks".
I do enjoy watching things like Blackadder and trying to draw parallels with Brexit.
It would be much better if old thick as mince Davis was more like Blackadder in that sketch (smart, but just pretending to be mad to avoid a cataclysm).
Or even like Baldrick (honest, but incredibly thick, but willing to be led by grown-ups).
Sadly he's lieutenant George. Incredibly thick, indoctrinated, and unwilling to countenance anything other than English 'superiority'.
But then they all get mown down equally at the end anyway, so what the heck. 🙄
tj, firstly I'm not convinced the 'impoverished' scenario is likely, as much as the doom mongers are pessimistic I'm optimistic...and secondly yes, it did come down to a decision that wasn't about money for me, it was done on the principle of rejecting an ever more integrated Europe, rejecting an over reaching European Court etc...if there is some financial penalty for that then I'm game, this country has been through worse.
You only have to look at how the EU treated Greece to see how big a bunch of pricks they can be and now with Poland and a few other countries being threatened with sanctions by the lovely EU for daring to administer their own immigration levels and not just taking the number the EU threw at them...i thought the EU was a collection of sovereign states free to make their own rules and laws?...the bureaucrats in Brussels don't seem to think so...nearly made me puke the other day when that prat O'Brien on LBC was telling a caller that countries in the EU have always been able to set their own immigration levels and that the EU has nothing to do with it!....in reality that's complete nonsense and the current actions of the EU towards Poland are a classic example of why I can't stand Brussels and the duplicity of conning people into thinking they (the EU) have nothing to do with overruling individual countries but dare to go against their decisions and they'll threaten you with fines, sanctions etc....classic bullying and I have no desire to live under that.
Part of the reason people like me voted to leave is so we don't have to deal with these euro freaks
You may find that we still have to deal with them - as I said before we will need to pair with them (and already are) to get anything our own way out of WTO. Also, we'll still live next door. Or are you leaving Europe?
Part of the reason people like me voted to leave is so we don't have to deal with these euro freaks
deviant, in what way do you have to deal with them currently? I'm dealing with some europeans, very congenial they are too.
I stood next to my lovely German colleague at our memorial service today. Lovely chap
It’s those poor buggers who have to deal with the euro poor things. We escaped that nightmare
deviant - Member
tj, firstly I'm not convinced the 'impoverished' scenario is likely, as much as the doom mongers are pessimistic I'm optimistic...and secondly yes, it did come down to a decision that wasn't about money for me, it was done on the principle of rejecting an ever more integrated Europe, rejecting an over reaching European Court etc...if there is some financial penalty for that then I'm game, this country has been through worse.You only have to look at how the EU treated Greece to see how big a bunch of pricks they can be and now with Poland and a few other countries being threatened with sanctions by the lovely EU for daring to administer their own immigration levels and not just taking the number the EU threw at them...i thought the EU was a collection of sovereign states free to make their own rules and laws?...the bureaucrats in Brussels don't seem to think so...nearly made me puke the other day when that prat O'Brien on LBC was telling a caller that countries in the EU have always been able to set their own immigration levels and that the EU has nothing to do with it!....in reality that's complete nonsense and the current actions of the EU towards Poland are a classic example of why I can't stand Brussels and the duplicity of conning people into thinking they (the EU) have nothing to do with overruling individual countries but dare to go against their decisions and they'll threaten you with fines, sanctions etc....classic bullying and I have no desire to live under that.
POSTED 7 MINUTES AGO # REPORT-POST
You forgot to mention the bananas. The bananas. Along with all the other nebulous stuff in that post you might as well mention the bananas.
Deviant - Brexit is already estimated to be costing us £600 per household per annum, which by my reckoning is £346m per week - so not quite the £350m that the EU wasn’t actually costing us.
So taking the real figure of around £180m a week, we were £166m a week better off before before we voted to leave.
Do you still think £166m better off is money guzzling?
Now that’s before we actually leave so a) we aren’t actually saving the £180m but we are paying out the £346m and b) that’s before we lose the free trade area and FoM of labour - so we’ve got a way down to go yet.
However the money isn’t the real reason to support the EU. The real reason is why it was originally set up - to bind us together to stop wars in western Europe, which it’s been quite successful at.
The Indy has been quite outspoken about that.
http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/eu-leave-vote-remembrance-sunday-dont-bother-wearing-a-poppy-a8043711.html
My German colleague mentioned the Indy article. Shameful
Deviant - the EU is terminally fu@@ed but that doesn’t mean we can or even would want to stop trading with its member states. The two issues should have been separated at the start
But it was always a tough sell for remainers to remind people that we avoided nearly all the fundamental shit the goes with being a member state but got nearly all the benefits. It was brilliant but now we have to find an alternative
rejecting an over reaching European Court etc
Which ECJ ruling do you find the most egregious? How about a top 10 of the times an ECJ decision has been detrimental to your life (or the life of anyone you know).
Did you read it, THM? They have a point, albeit the headline is a bit of a troll. Remembrance services are not what they once were either - do you recall the call to old soldiers of all nations to walk as brothers their battles behind them? I haven’t heard it recently.
Strangely you’ve reminded that I’ve worked with the odd German both here and in Germany, I knew Germans at university and there’s a German lives next door - and I’ve yet to meet one I didn’t like. That must be chance. There must be some I wouldn’t like.
Skim tead in truth. Almost as bad as reading the Wail
Remembrance services are not what they once were either - do you recall the call to old soldiers of all nations to walk as brothers their battles behind them? I haven’t heard it recently.
Topic mission-creep slightly here, but I have noticed this slip towards nationalism as well.
All the poppy prejudice, tying remembrance to patriotism, it is symptomatic of what caused the referendum result in the first place.
Last year at our village remembrance service the hymn "I vow to thee my country" was sung. A brilliant tune undoubtedly, but I felt it was inappropriate.
Prejudice and entitlement are so easy to give into if you don't want to think too hard.
Deviant. It will be utterly disastrous economically. We are already suffering increased costs and reduced income and we haven't left yet. We are talking recession to make 1`930s look like a boom.
What ECJ judgement don't you like?
We are talking recession to make 1`930s look like a boom.
No we are not. Stop being silly or at least please use a smiley
No we are not. Stop being silly or at least please use a smiley
You're right. At least we were notionally self-sufficient in energy and, to a lesser extent, food in the 1930s.
Whatever, what a price to pay for 'taking back control'. Of course, we will have less control as a result as we're just opening ourselves up more to global economic forces. Flotsam on an ocean of cheap labour. Guess how we will try to 'compete'. A combination of a race to the bottom for the 99% and bending over for the 1% to bribe them to do business here.
Pass the lube, might as well make the best of a bad job, eh?
No we are not. Stop being silly or at least please use a smiley
That aimed at me? Thats the consensus from neutral economic folk. already growth is badly affected, already we are wasting huge sums of money on preparations for this with the amounts due to accelerate. already we are suffering huge loss of inward investment and flight of the banks that keep us afloat financially.
Hide your head in the sand and pretend its going to be allright or believe the experts. Oh thats right - we have had enough of experts
Crashing out with no deal which looks more and more likely will be utterly disasterous. Of course you could always pretend that the negotiations are going well and those dastadrly furriners will soon come to their senses.
Lets put it this way. Everything I and other remainers has said is going to happen has happened. Everything the leavers said will happen or the hopeless optimists have said will happen has not
Its already cost us hugely and we have not even left yet
THM - read more carefully, disregard the posturing against the Brexies and there is a very valid point.
On the whole remembrance versus nationalism thing can I cross-post and old thread of mine please. I’m from a family of non-combatant conscientious objectors (medical orderlies, miners and soup kitchen drivers across two world wars). This guy is a quiet hero of mine.
http://singletrackworld.com/forum/topic/my-faith-in-humanity-rose-a-little-last-night
TJ - I’ve seen 15-18% of lost growth. That’s not the same as a 15-18% recession.
It overruled a 2005 decision by Charles Clarke, then home secretary, to refuse entry to a French national known to be involved in terrorism.
In 2013, when the government was trying to refuse entry to a known terrorist with a French passport, the ECJ ruled in his favour after his lawyers argued that under the charter he was entitled to know the grounds for excluding him, potentially compromising sensitive intelligence.
In 2010 Aso Mohammed Ibrahim, a Kurdish asylum seeker who caused the death of a 12 year girl in a driving accident, avoided deportation.
Take your pick, there's loads more but I got bored of looking them up...no foreign court should be able to override the highest court in the land.
Your opinion may differ, I think it's a bizarre thing to live this way and call it democratic, sooner it's over the better.
It’s not a foreign court though
TJ - I’ve seen 15-18% of lost growth. That’s not the same as a 15-18% recession
Let him has his bit of fun. The same misunderstanding of the basics is becoming repetitive but it allows people to easily falsify the fanciful claims about being right on .....nothing
Sorry I normally like reading alternative views but the Indy was too much. Remembering my colleagues great grandfather who fell on day 2 was enough for me today. I apologised for the UK-centric service but he hadn’t even noticed. Special moment to hear his views. So don’t want to spoil that with Indy tripe
ibanks that keep us afloat financially.
That was v funny though. Just wait until tag team member #1 reads that. Wow
Fair enough. Read my cross post. It’s a hard time for a lot of people.
Easier in that my ancestors survived perhaps. But out after Dunkirk, in a few days after D-day, all the while serving but refusing to kill. My grandfather told me stuff near the end that he said he hadn’t told his wife or kids. Distance I suppose.
It is - lest we forget
(Appreciate the links though. Thank you)
I don’t know. Perhaps it is time to forget. For the most part, most of us have done the forgiving. How long are we going to nurse this national wound?
Of course perhaps the cross-post tells you I’m not entirely ready to forget yet.
No, we absolutely must never forget.
The problem I have is that remembering the sacrifices made hasn’t stopped us going off to fight more wars.
I should stop before this gets a little raw and ranty.
I disagree. Remembering the appalling futility of war was the reason behind my last BBC outing when I was criticising CMD on his Syria policy!!
To lift the tone, nothing like Glasgow gallows humour..
BBC outing? Were you doing a Graham Norton biography?
there's loads more but I got bored of looking them up...
Why are you looking them up? How have any of these effected you? Are they ECJ or ECHR?
The home office often walks a tough line between security and rights, and we should always have courts involved in that. When those issues involve border security and other nationals, a court that can be involved that is intranational makes sense. We will still be involved with other intranational courts, even if we remove ourselves from ECJ court (and other courts) that cover Europe. Chances are we'll end up with a new parallal intranational court that just shadows the ECJ, much like the EFTA one. We may stick with ECHR as well, despite May and the Mail being dead against that.
The problem I have is that remembering the sacrifices made hasn’t stopped us going off to fight more wars.
I disagree, wars have happened, true, but more wars would probably happen if we chose to ignore the lessons of the great wars.
Indeed and anti-Tory gov don’t you know. Outside standing up to bullies, I am a proper pinko pacifist at heart and was v critical of CMDs Syria policy on the broadcast
The problem I have is that remembering the sacrifices made hasn’t stopped us going off to fight more wars.
I have always maintained that while it seems possible to pass on knowledge to the next generation, it is impossible to pass on wisdom.
Kelvin, THM - we could probably do a sensible, thoughtful debate on this. As you can tell, my mind is somewhat divided on the issues. I’m all for thoughtful personal remembrance, but national remembrance with the military in full uniform? I struggle with that.
And do we learn the lessons? Well “history teaches us that history teaches us nothing” is a cliche for a reason.
However for now can we agree to respect each other’s position - however muddled mine might be?
Of course.
My view on this is clouded by being a military child, I suspect.
Indeed another thread. Respect your thoughts. It’s a tough subject. Good night
All views on issues that big are potentially clouded.
A history of conscientious objection in the family probably clouds mine.
deviant - Member
In 2010 Aso Mohammed Ibrahim, a Kurdish asylum seeker who caused the death of a 12 year girl in a driving accident, avoided deportation.
What was the ECJ’s role in the decision in 2010 by UK immigration tribunal and the 2011 decision by the court of appeal?
deviant - Member
In 2010 Aso Mohammed Ibrahim, a Kurdish asylum seeker who caused the death of a 12 year girl in a driving accident, avoided deportation.
love that Deviant has managed to give a brilliant example of why the brexit vote was built on ignorance
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-13015824
scapegoating the EU for perceived failings of the british government, is tragic
guys - we have a couple of other threads running about rememberance
Can’t find anything further on the French passport claim than the telegraph op-ed he quoted from so can’t really comment on that or the Charles Clarke claim from the same piece.
Do you have more information on them deviant so we can see the details?
Or even another of the many more examples you have with a bit more detail to discuss?
its not like british judges sit on the ECJ or anything ....
oh they do 😳
except they wont after Brexit, but UK courts already said theyll still have to consider their verdicts
Its like Brexit actually gives us less control & sovereignity
meanwhile at the daily mail
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wonder what could be causing such a squeeze?
and if anyone believes nonsense like flights over Europe and the UK will stop following no deal then they're delusional....things like that are as important to them as us,
But, without the proper regulatory agreements in place, it would be illegal. No scare mongering involved. These are some of the things that will need to be sorted out before we leave, and they will take time. Time that is ticking away. It's as simple as that really.
Like all bullies ^ they don’t like being stood up to.
As you showed us all last night when a couple of us did to your bellicose sneering.
Indeed so they don’t have to negotiate.
No, they don't. Why would they? Their sole aim is to make it absolutely transparent that Brexit is impossible. Those three points go a long no way to demonstrating that. So for all your sneering about wishful thinking, you seem to be wasting a lot of effort planning for (and stealth editing posts about) an event that can not happen. It's either hard Brexit or no Brexit. One of those, when the implications all become clear, will be far less politically difficult than the other. I'll leave your monumental intellect to work out which of those is which.
Its like Brexit actually gives us less control & sovereignity
Mind. Blown. 😉
In 2010 Aso Mohammed Ibrahim, a Kurdish asylum seeker who caused the death of a 12 year girl in a driving accident, avoided deportation.Take your pick, there's loads more but I got bored of looking them up...no foreign court should be able to override the highest court in the land.
Your opinion may differ, I think it's a bizarre thing to live this way and call it democratic, sooner it's over the better.
Typical Brexy b******s ... how is a UK immigration judge applying the ECHR anything to do with the ECJ? Don't let facts get in the way etc.
https://ukhumanrightsblog.com/2010/12/22/asylum-seeker-death-driver-case-was-misunderstood/
But it was always a tough sell for remainers to remind people that we avoided nearly all the fundamental shit the goes with being a member state but got nearly all the benefits. It was brilliant but now we have to find an alternative
So we currently have a deal with the EU that gives us loads of benefits without most of the associated hassle? Why would we be so stupid as to give that up?
[url= http://www.cornwalllive.com/news/cornwall-news/county-hall-calls-fair-migration-752290 ]Seems that some of the turkeys are getting cold feet as Christmas approaches [/url]
No, they don't. Why would they? Their sole aim is to make it absolutely transparent that Brexit is impossible. Those three points go a long no way to demonstrating that.
You’re learning. Well done
So for all your sneering about wishful thinking, you seem to be wasting a lot of effort planning for (and stealth editing posts about) an event that can not happen.
The fees suggest otherwise 😉
It's either hard Brexit or no Brexit. One of those, when the implications all become clear, will be far less politically difficult than the other. I'll leave your monumental intellect to work out which of those is which.
IGM - here’s your natural hedge on the pint (or 5 pint) trade!!
Great post Zokes. Do keep them coming.
Good to see you've calmed down after your sleep. I was beginning to get a bit worried about your blood pressure yesterday.
The grass is still growing in that patch just to the side. It's nice and long now.
Just drop the Brexit ball subtly and side foot it where it belongs and we can all get on with our lives.....
Nail on head from Parris today:
So we are on Saturday where we were before Friday: leaderless and drifting towards an act of grave national self-harm. This feeling of drift, this sense of an unholy mess, is deepened by a lack of leadership not just at the top, but among the two great movements engaged in a tug-of-war for Britain’s destiny: movements I shall call the Brexiteers and the Resistance.
From the Newsthump piss-take:
Racist tantrum
S****. 😆
If I were still a subject in The United Serfdom of Ruritania and I'd just read this, I might well be inclined to softly murmur "Oh bugger..."
[url= https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/nov/10/babble-brexit-progress-dave-ooze-defeat-barnier ]Lady appendages in the ascendant.[/url]
Is it me or are the Express starting to question Brexit?
Interesting.
Time for Boris the hero who reluctantly put his own beliefs to one side for the good of the country?
It's crap, but nice to see the Irish getting blamed for HMG's incompetence. Going to invade Ireland i guess to solve the border issue.
well them and the EU it certainly wont be the fault of the **** wits who voted for it or the fools trying to deliver it
Peculiar slant from the sun. Its been the case right from the beginning that the Irish position has been that it has to be an open border and the EU say you can only have an open border if you are in the single market. Desparate stuff from the bexshiteers
mrmo - MemberIt's crap, but nice to see the Irish getting blamed for HMG's incompetence. Going to invade Ireland i guess to solve the border issue.
tjagain - MemberPeculiar slant from the sun. Its been the case right from the beginning that the Irish position has been that it has to be an open border
Jesus Christ what did I just read.
Was there ever any doubt that the north and if needs be peace would be sold down the river in the face of brexit? As for blaming Sinn Fein, the Irish government has been quite open about their stance on this for some time.
Jimjam - the irish governments position has not changed at all. The GFA states there must be an open border. The irish government supports the GFA. The EU will not accept an open border between the EU and non eu .
this is why the UK government suggested a border made of pixie dust.
the NI issue has no solution acceptable to all parties. Hard border, breach of the GFA, unacceptable to the irish government. Open border. Illegal from an EU standpoint. Unacceptable to the EU. Border in the Irish sea. Unacceptable to the NI unionists
There simply is no solution to this issue
tjagain - MemberJimjam
My post wasn't questioning you TJ, just the Sun article. It's literally fake news.
Ah fairy snuff. the perils of text based communication again.
Johnson now caught in an outright lie
Boris Johnson is facing questions about the government’s links to key individuals named by the FBI in its Trump-Russia investigation, following the emergence of a photo of him with Joseph Mifsud, the “London professor” with high-level Kremlin contacts.This development comes less [b]than a week after Johnson denied meeting the professor[/b], and at a time when concern is growing about possible Russian interference in the Brexit campaign, in which the foreign secretary played a crucial role.
Boris lying is not news
Boris being caught lying is not news
the tories doing nothing about either of these is not news
And on the back of that Sun article, people wonder how we got into this situation!
A media that lies and politicians who fail to condemn and in fact actively colude screws any democracy.
Sinn Fein are down 5% in today's polls, so not sure how the sun reaches its conclusions - oh yes they just make shite up.
We don't really have a government at the moment.
It's more like 'Yes Minister' mixed with Eastenders mixed with Allo Allo.
I haven't got enough bile to cope with this any more.
I'm slowly creeping towards this point of view at much the same pace as this ****ed-up brexit approachs.
Senior EU officials have accused Theresa May’s government of putting its own survival ahead of the interests of the people of Northern Ireland, as they said they had lost all confidence in Downing Street’s capacity to navigate the Brexit negotiations successfully.
the NI issue has no solution acceptable to all parties. Hard border, breach of the GFA, unacceptable to the irish government. Open border. Illegal from an EU standpoint. Unacceptable to the EU. Border in the Irish sea. Unacceptable to the NI unionists
Yep this Ones a right little gem ...... This should have been nailed in principle before we started rushing to the exit.
Excluding fairy borders an unicorn crossings Sweden and Norway managed to get an acceptable solution in place so there is precedent.
Still if we crash out it’s someone else’s border problem maybe?
(BTW Wondering not hoping)
Brexit is Kobayashi Maru
So we need a Kirk , but we got a May.
Dude of doom - there is also a hong kong / isle of man type solution. Trouble is both of them rely on NI remaining in the single market with a border in the irish sea. Unacceptable to the brexshitters and to the DUP
tjagain - MemberDude of doom - there is also a hong kong / isle of man type solution. Trouble is both of them rely on NI remaining in the single market with a border in the irish sea. Unacceptable to the brexshitters and to the DUP
It's really the only viable solution. A hard border can't be implemented unless it's policed - that will be a massive red flag to dissidents who'll try to kill security forces doing the policing, and so you'd end up going back to military bases, which will mean more harassment, more unrest, more dissidents........
An Island Ireland with one border would be fitting justice for the bunch of creationist bigots who sold out "their wee country" and spun lies for 40000000 Rubles.
Its the only viable solution. However it won't fly 'cos the DUP won't accept it nor the little englanders
tjagain - MemberIts the only viable solution. However it won't fly 'cos the DUP won't accept it nor the little englanders
I can tell you right now (as I look across the border) that it'll have to. They'll have to dress it up, paint it a different colour, call it a different name but that's the only workable solution that won't cost lives and waste billions.
Varadkar and the EU are basically on the same page with this. Sunlight is the best disinfectant and hopefully this'll shine a light on what a bunch of crooks are in power at Stormont.
Well there is a viable solution perhaps. Re-align the border along the line of the leave/remain vote. Then stick up concrete and barbed wire.
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