Chewk, what is the objective of Brexit? What do people expect, more money? no immigrants, etc etc.
What ever emerges it will fail, those at the bottom will still be at the bottom. So what will they do when they realise that it is not going to get better. That deregulation will actually make their lives worse?
they will blame the EU for it all for not doing exactly what we wanted which will never happen - leave and yet still have unrestricted free access without paying or complying.
The RW press will still be being xenophobic
occasionally they will turn on "Us" for doing britian down by pointing out facts and the inevitable to them
PS WTF makes you expect a coherent answer from chewk or his online immigrant persona?
mrmo - Member
What ever emerges it will fail, those at the bottom will still be at the bottom. So what will they do when they realise that it is not going to get better. That deregulation will actually make their lives worse?
I think that is the least of the worries coz they are there already. i.e. they are already at the bottom.
The question is how far do they need to drag you down for you to understand them.
People have voted to leave EU. Too late to cry now after calling people fools for voting Brexit. Now you have to submit to the "fools" whether you like it or not.
Last I checked, our governmental system was a Democracy, not an Ochlocracy. It's the job of parliament to do what's best for the country and it's people, not what people want. If we had a referendum asking whether we should abolish taxes and give everyone a free solid gold house, I expect the number of "yes" votes would be astonishingly high; that doesn't make it a good idea.
The vast majority of "the people," myself included, are not equipped to make that sort of massively complex decision. (Arguably nor are half of the politicians, but in theory at least they should be.)
THEGUARDIAN.COM Junkyard - lazarus
they will blame the EU for it all for not doing exactly what we wanted which will never happen - leave and yet still have unrestricted free access without paying or complying.The RW press will still be being xenophobic
occasionally they will turn on "Us" for doing britian down by pointing out facts and the inevitable to them
PS WTF makes you expect a coherent answer from chewk or his online immigrant persona?
Blame EU? We don't even want them in the first place. 😆
As for the RW press etc ... that line or argument is so predictable it really is the norm now.
For 43 years the EU system has been sneakily trying political reform under the radar ... we see you coming. 😆
The question is how far do they need to drag you down for you to understand them.
That is the question that was posed above - what happens when the ones at the bottom find out that Brexit didn't get them the job, or the house, or the hospital bed they were promised. The ones in the middle will be inconvenienced, and the ones at the top will be doing very nicely as always. The losers will have nowhere to go but rioting in the streets.
The question is how far do they need to drag you down for you to understand them.
I will just emigrate and get a job elsewhere. Something that WAS as option for those at the bottom but who chose to whinge instead. There have always been jobs in the UK if you are willing.
Cougar - Moderator
Last I checked, our governmental system was a Democracy, not an Ochlocracy. It's the job of parliament to do what's best for the country and it's people, not what people want. If we had a referendum asking whether we should abolish taxes and give everyone a free solid gold house, I expect the number of "yes" votes would be astonishingly high; that doesn't make it a good idea.
Yes, you/we are still a democracy but you twisting your words means nothing now because the people have voted OUT in the Referendum.
As for using referendum or calling to use referendum frequently as "collective decision making process/tool" that is simply naive.
In theory you should look after yourself (whether you know or not another story) and keep out of harm's way and if everyone does the same then you have a "collective process" of doing the right thing. You trying to intervene unnecessary because the "collective" have voted against your views can only means you are trying to put a square pet into the round hole again ... by force.The vast majority of "the people," myself included, are not equipped to make that sort of massively complex decision. (Arguably nor are half of the politicians, but in theory at least they should be.)
Metalheart... that is how wars start. This madness must be ended now.
Can you imagine the rage the daily racist would have if a hard working plucky brit with 2 french kids was booted out of france?
Chewk ,most of us don't have a choice to run away to another country when things get hard. We will have to stay and weather the shit storm. You of course have had that freedom .
What have you got against me to deny me my freedom to go and live on the mainland?
Like a moth to the flame.
chewkw - Member
captainsasquatch - Member
Armed with the information we have now. I wonder which way a 2nd referendum would go. I see no reason not to have one, the first was voted on with false info (some say from both sides). We have more info now, so let's go for it.There will be No more referendum on the same issue.
Your (remainders) fate is already sealed in 2016 😆
It's almost like yu're scared of a second referendum. it's almost like you know you'll get your arses kicked and it's not by remainers, it'd be by those who feel betrayed becasue they were taken for mugs.
Keep being taken chewkw. 😆
In theory you should look after yourself (whether you know or not another story) and keep out of harm's way and if everyone does the same then you have a "collective process" of doing the right thing
There was a story about that. It's called the tragedy of the commons.
A second referendum would be a walkover for remain, not just because of the realisation of the economic consequences of leaving and the lies the leave campaign told but because, I believe, most non-voters were remainers who didn't believe people would actually be so stupid to vote leave. And when chewkw and jambalaya are the main cheerleaders for your cause, well, good luck with that.
zippykona - Member
Metalheart... that is how wars start. This madness must be ended now.Can you imagine the rage the daily racist would have if a hard working plucky brit with 2 french kids was booted out of france?
No wonder you lot are so detached from reality because you are so cocooned in your own "reality".
All the [b][u]extremely very hard working[/u][/b] Non-EU people that I know have to endure the hardship of immigration law until they are given the rights to settle. i.e. Russians, Libyans, Syrians, etc ...
That example is not even a single bit comparable to the stress of the people I know. Yes, they all have family and children too.
Yes you have to all those English speaking countries all over the world. As for EU you need to ask yourself this question can you speak or write in their language if not then your choice is only English speaking country like I am.Chewk ,most of us don't have a choice to run away to another country when things get hard. We will have to stay and weather the shit storm. You of course have had that freedom .
What have you got against me to deny me my freedom to go and live on the mainland?
Nobody deny you to go where you want but why do you impose on us for 43 years?
I think that is the least of the worries coz they are there already. i.e. they are already at the bottom.
The question is how far do they need to drag you down for you to understand them.
So the big plan for Brexit is to put everyone in the gutter?
corroded - Member
A second referendum would be a walkover for remain, not just because of the realisation of the economic consequences of leaving and the lies the leave campaign told but because, I believe, most non-voters were remainers who didn't believe people would actually be so stupid to vote leave ...
😆 EU bureaucratic system has been trying on the political union for so long which bits of economic consequences are they capable of managing that you are referring to? Greece? Italy? Spain? Portugal? etc
All the extremely very hard working Non-EU people that I know have to endure the hardship of immigration law [b]until they are given the rights to settle.[/b] i.e. Russians, Libyans, Syrians, etc ...
Rights to settle?
I thought the leave campàign was telling us how easy it was for immigrants to come and take our jobs; and that we needed to take back our borders... Sort your arguments out, sonny.
Chewk please list the English speaking countries where I can freely go and live.
I love Australia and have lived and worked there. I had the choice when I was of the right age to apply to live there.
As much as I love that country it has been stolen from it's rightful owners and there's no way I could have called it home.
captainsasquatch - Member
It's almost like yu're scared of a second referendum. it's almost like you know you'll get your arses kicked and it's not by remainers, it'd be by those who feel betrayed becasue they were taken for mugs.
Keep being taken chewkw.
Nahh ... not giving you a second referendum. Nope. Nada. 😆
Coz people have voted OUT.
Not even considering your (remainders) request. No. Out of the question. Never. 😆
captainsasquatch - Member
Rights to settle?
I thought the leave campàign was telling us how easy it was for immigrants to come and take our jobs; and that we needed to take back our borders... Sort your arguments out, sonny.
That's why you are sooo detached from reality. 😆
Nope, the govt have been kind to people who have good qualifications ... like medical, science and engineer related etc ... Not easy but eventually they all settled down.
You are way out of touch matey.
Nahh ... not giving you a second referendum. Nope. Nada.
¡Es que no tenéis cojones, machote!
The sad truth of the matter is that the 'disenfranchised' will remain so and that's nothing to do with whether were in the EU or not but more to do with globalisation and technology - as they are they're superfluous, nothing for them to do - there was a good bit on the World at One today on this (not just low skilled jobs but doctors and various other professionals).
A good case in point and pertinent to the referendum is fruit/veg pickers in East Anglia - to counter the risk of losing their workforce the whole Brexit bollocks has nudged the growers to automate - boom time for high tech agri engineers - with the result that those jobs won't be there to benefit anyone whether the eastern European worker or the ****less local who couldn't be arsed with the work in the first place.
What the answer there;how is exiting the EU and a free trade deal with Oz going to solve that.
zippykona - Member
Chewk please list the English speaking countries where I can freely go and live.
I love Australia and have lived and worked there. I had the choice when I was of the right age to apply to live there.
As much as I love that country it has been stolen from it's rightful owners and there's no way I could have called it home.
Can you speak other EU language fluently?
captainsasquatch - Member
Nahh ... not giving you a second referendum. Nope. Nada.
¡Es que no tenéis cojones, machote!
Translated = "It's just that you do not have balls!"
😆 Ahhhhaaaa ... good one that. Eunuch don't have balls but they too would agree with me that you should Not be given a second referendum.
Nope.
No.
No chance in hell.
Not forever ... 😆
Eunuch don't have balls but they too would agree with me that you should Not be given a second referendum.
I agree.
How long do we have to put up with Chewkw's non stop verbal diarrhoea? It's so transparent and tiresome.
There will be no second referendum, because May knows the anti-immigrant vote will keep her in power after the next election, so any slipping on freedom of movement is against her interests, Her job is now to keep the Conservative party both in power, and safe from getting into the hands of the more liberal elements of the party.
Of course, this means that we will get an exit deal that only satisfies the voters she is targeting, the majority of Brits do not matter. And, I assure you the majority of Brits would vote against the 'real' exit deal, including many Leave voters, when they compare it to the fantasy futures offered on the run up to the last referendum. So we will exit, and in a manner only supported by, say, a third of the country at best. Governments are kept in power by minority votes though, so May has nothing to gain form chasing a deal that would satisfy 50%+ of the population, nothing at all, even If such a deal could be achieved.
So, sitting back and waiting for a second referendum is a mugs game, it needs to be forced out of the current government… find a way to get them in a corner where a vote, referendum or general election, is needed for them to carry on.
All suggestions welcome…
If we don't come up with something, then we'll end up in a position that would never be supported by a majority of Brits, which doesn't sound like successful democracy to me. It is the avoidance of democratic oversight that is the driving force in blocking a second referendum, and trying to bypass parliament… the public and MPs can not have a say on the exit terms, because that would force the government to look for an exit deal that satisfies 50%+, and, well, I've explained why that isn't in our PM's interest.
Ther won't be another referendum as there is no need for one and as I posted before whatever the question was re the deal it would be rejected, eg I would vote against a soft style Brexit to force a hard Brexit in 2019. The democratic compromise to satisfy the 52% and "Leave the EU" which was the question.
zippykona - Member
Chewk please list the English speaking countries where I can freely go and live.
I love Australia and have lived and worked there. I had the choice when I was of the right age to apply to live there.
As much as I love that country it has been stolen from it's rightful owners and there's no way I could have called it home.
Zippy there is not another English speaking country aside from the UK which wasn't "stolen" from the original population, not Oz, NZ, US ...
Or the UK
(Romans, Saxons, Vikings, Normans)
It got a name - 'peak human' 😯
Nevermind, the Brexopaths have their super rose tined goggles on or perhaps they have shades borrowed from Zaphod Beeblebrox the Joo Janta 200 Super-Chromatic Peril Sensitive Sunglasses (could explain quite a lot actually)
The Joo Janta 200 Super-Chromatic Peril Sensitive Sunglasses have been designed to help people develop a relaxed attitude to danger. They follow the principle "what you don't know can't hurt you" and turn completely dark and opaque at the first sign of danger. This prevents you from seeing anything that might alarm you. This does, however, mean that you see absolutely nothing, including where you're going.
Ther won't be another referendum as there is no need for one and as I posted before whatever the question was re the deal it would be rejected, eg I would vote against a soft style Brexit to force a hard Brexit in 2019. The democratic compromise to satisfy the 52% and "Leave the EU" which was the question.
So you except that only a minority of people in the UK will be happy with "how" we will leave the EU, but don't want democratic oversight over how we leave, because you are one of those who want out at any cost, against the wishes of the majority.
£341bn – difference between taxes raised and expected spending by 2050.
jesus ****ing h christ 😯
I believe, most non-voters were remainers who didn't believe people would actually be so stupid to vote leave
So a huge number of remainers who think of themselves as the intelligent side of the argument weren't smart enough to get off their backsides for a one off referendum and go and vote? But the thick racist xenophobes all went and voted? Who's the smart side then?
Ther won't be another referendum as there is no need for one
There was no need for the first one. But if you are going to ask people what they want, you would be better off asking them when they have an idea of what it actually means.
irc - indeed
Kelvin - we do not need a second referendum. A very simple question was put to the British people along with a commitment to exercise that decision. We lost but that's democracy for you. There is no point in a referendum on the nature of our exit for the very simple reason that we are not in control over that. That wil be determined by negotiations with [s] Frankfurt/Berlin[/s] twenty seven states not simply by what we want.
So the only sensible and democratic course of action is to trigger A50 and to get on with exercising the decision that was made. The result will only be determined at the end of that process. The rest is simply noise.
The next GE will officiate as Brexit referendum. And the way it is going it might be sooner than expected.
I love the concept of 'negotiations' as exemplified by Leave means Leave begging message to EU business interests this week
we will get what we are given and lump it
fakecontrol all the way...............
We wil get what we negotiate - pure and simple
So we need to get on with it quickly and end the fannying around
How can a GE be a vote in Brexshit when both major parties (including Labour here for simplicity) are totally split on the issue?
Of course there won't be a second referendum, Brexshitters have no confidence on a landslide victory, which is what I would expect after 6 months of convincing us that to leave is the way forward. There are times when even Jamba doesn't sound convinced.
As for clockworkchewkw... 😆
There is no need for a second referendum. The result of the first is very clear. The population is almost equally split on leave/stay. The nation is divided. Lurching into one action (leave or stay) will result in considerable dissatisfaction. In my view what the government ought to be doing is looking at the result of this (advisory and non-binding) referendum and deciding what can sensibly be done to come to some consensus agreement. That isn't going to be achieved by triggering Article 50 or by leaving the EU as it is.
SOD - the question was simple
Should the United Kingdom remain a member of the European Union or leave the European Union?
The result was a choice to leave. The only thing the gov should be doing is honouring the commitment to respect the result. Nothing can happen until A50 is triggered, so this should be done ASAP. Then and only then, we can start to negotiate from our respective contradictory positions.
We HAVE to stop fannying around and pretending the bad result didnt happen. It did. Live with and make the best of it. Thats what makes good leaders not those pretending that anything else is possible. Leave that to the SNP and their fantasy land (bingo)
make the best of it
But where 'the best of it' is worse than the current status quo and factor in that none of the Brexopaths in their wildest dreams could have foreseen a Trump presidency - we leave one of the world's main trading blocks just as another (our biggest non EU exporter) is about to embark on a macroeconomic version of the Good Life. I would say the circumstances have changed.
Circumstances always change - yes the future is worse than the status quo IMO but I/we are in the minority. Accept and move on. Change is not an excuse for us fannying around.
Trump has nothing to do with this - hopefully the DC machine will wrap him up and keep him (and us) out of trouble.
You and I must have drastically different ideas on what constitutes a 'good leader' then. If anything this entire episode has been the epitome of bad leadership and management from the very beginning.
make the best of it
Where "best of it" means a divided nation. I suppose compromise is what makes me a wishy washy liberal.
