[Closed] EU Referendum - are you in or out?

Well capn it's tough when [s]one[/s] [b]both[/b] sides tactic is to avoid negotiating if possible, true

Of course it's propping up the govt. while they can keep on kicking the can down the road, they can pretend they [i]are[/i] a govt. Once they have to make any concrete decisions the stand-off in the party will collapse. Hence not making concrete decisions. It's hardly rocket surgery.

Yes you do THM, though as always context is really useful there. The ROW has been negotiating those sort of deals based on the fact it's the only choice.

The main point remains though, a "Bespoke deal that ensures the best access for the UK" is as meaningless a statement as Brexit means Brexit and Red White and Blue Brexit, purely a soundbite.

UK is facing the fact that the EU won't move on it's key principles, it's up to the UK to now decide what it can live with and without and perhaps finalise discussions and get an agreement on payments to leave.

Anyway next up TM waffling on about some random crap and being very careful to avoid leaving any room behind her back - expect extra metal and Boris detectors to be in place and a few back benchers to drop some grenades while she is out of town.

So we come back to the idea that it's a negotiation !

Yes, between factions in the Tory party.

They are not even talking!

They are talking - just via the papers, it does appear internal tory politics seem to be a massive problem here.
Go on any bets that May will say anything other than meaningless soundbites? She is finished at conference if she upsets either side.

They always do themselves in over Europe (I may have also said that before 🙁 )

This is merely another example of Tory self destruction

She "may" try to indicate that she is taking a more central role. That "may" also be positive because ultimately May, Macron and Merkel need to sort this out but one if not two of those are preoccupied

Tick tock

I think the term "haggling" fits better. May would have had a better chance of getting the house if she'd but her offer in a sealed envelope rather than shouting her bid from the roof tops.

Who has the exact same deal with the EU as the one Switzerland has? No one. Bespoke.
Who has the exact same deal with the EU as the one Norway has? No one. Bespoke.
Who has the exact same deal with the EU as the one Turkey has? No one. Bespoke.
Who has the exact same deal with the EU as the one Canada has? No one. Bespoke.
Who has the exact same deal with the EU as the one South Korea has? No one. Bespoke.
Any deal we get, beyond "no deal", but no longer being a member, will be a unique bespoke deal for us.
May and her unless band need to decide if they are looking to move to a limited FTA, or something more akin to EEA.

And I'm ignoring the fact that we already have a bespoke deal that serves us and them very well.

[i]Apologies to all those that have pointed this out so many, many times on this and many, many previous pages.[/i]

So ANY deal, from the minimum required to stop food rotting in ports, to asking for agreement to stop or the delay the A50 process, is a "bespoke deal".

[b]A bespoke deal is a bespoke deal.[/b]

Negotiation - where one side demands things it knows the other side is not in a position to offer and the other makes it clear it can not offer those things.

See also: stalemate

I hope you’re right THM and there is some intelligent stuff behind the scenes - little sign of it so far.

[quote=Edukator ]I think the term "haggling" fits better. May would have had a better chance of getting the house if she'd but her offer in a sealed envelope rather than shouting her bid from the roof tops whist screaming no house is better than a bad house

FTFY

[url= http://www.theneweuropean.co.uk/top-stories/mitch-benn-winning-1-5196518 ]It's not over 'til Montserrat Cabale's had a warble.[/url]

Odd that so many people are currently in the process of negotiating one. How absurd is that?

I thought that until NI / exit bill/ EU citizens rights were agreed, no (trade / full Brexit) negotiations would happen?

This is merely another example of Tory self destruction

Every cloud & all that!

😆

From Woppits link:

The Brexiteers perverted democracy last June by bombarding the voters with lies and knowingly false promises and they’ve been running and hiding from “democracy” ever since. And now, as the lies are exposed, their case lies in tatters and whatever victory they won is left hollow, all they have left is insults, and moaning. So. Much. Moaning.

So, for all that we successfully “reclaimed” it quite early on in proceedings I’ve decided I’m not going to use the word “Remoaner” any more, not even ironically. We’re REMAINERS. We’re not whining. We’re winning.

The dexeu White paper on science was particularly disappointing, there's no way we can get back the input we had in Horizon 2020, going from the most influential partner to a non voting associate.

There's nothing that the gov have produced so far to change my view that Brexit is an exercise in anti-intellectualism and regressive and damaging for the UK.

Instead of doing something to mitigate the damage, the government are busy squabbling amongst themselves for the sake of their own egos.

https://www.newscientist.com/section/news/

Guy tells RTÉ so far he hasn't seen workable solution to border problem put forward by UK side.

[i]TICK[/i]

He can imagine NI being in a customs union and single market but it's [i]up to the UK[/i] to develop a unique solution.

[i]TOCK[/i]

'Full and humiliating climb-down', please!

It's time to call this whole thing off, isn't it?

Humiliating? Well, when you actively put yourself in a position to be humiliated you can't really complain when it happens.

But what about the 51.9% of people who voted that voted for Brexit?

Easy. Ignore them. Again - if you deserve to be ignored........

In the meantime tick...tock...tick...tock...

We could just stop this nonsense now, save ourselves a lot of bother (and decades of impoverishment) and what is the price? Well-earned ridicule. I'll take that.

Worth a read from Todays Guardian regarding the cloud-cuckoo land Boris and his chums are inhabiting

[url= https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/sep/20/saboteurs-tory-hard-brexit-eu-boris-johnson-theresa-may ]The real saboteurs are the Tory fantasists backing a hard Brexit[/url]

[i]Some Tories have moved on from the question of what needs doing – the referendum answered that with the single word “leave” – and are applying themselves to the problem of how it might be done: how to protect industries that rely on the single market; how to organise the Irish border; how to support agriculture without EU subsidy. Others shrink from that challenge. They find comfort in the saccharine simplicity of restating the original cause. “Hard” Brexit is the place to which some Tories retreat to avoid getting their hands dirty with compromise. If things go wrong, they can blame the pragmatists for sullying the dream.[/i]

Ok it's the guardian but nonetheless that is a very shallow piece of analysis and lazy journalism

I don't agree with Brexshiteers let alone hard ones. Nonetheless it's always worth trying to understand their position if only to prepare for a worst case secenario. There are some very able minds on their side in addition to the rabid ones. They have produced some work that challenges much of the accepted narrative which is always a good thing. Hence dismissing this as saccharine simplicity is remarkable naive - even for the remoan rag

teamhurtmore - Member
Ok it's the guardian but nonetheless that is a very shallow piece of analysis and lazy journalism

I don't agree with Brexshiteers let alone hard ones. Nonetheless it's always worth trying to understand their position if only to prepare for a worst case secenario. There are some very able minds on their side in addition to the rabid ones. They have produced some work that challenges much of the accepted narrative which is always a good thing. Hence dismissing this as saccharine simplicity is remarkable naive - even for the remoan rag

POSTED 54 MINUTES AGO # REPORT-POST

Yeah, but it's still going to be a ****ing disaster.

Leku - Member

Odd that so many people are currently in the process of negotiating one. How absurd is that?

I thought that until NI / exit bill/ EU citizens rights were agreed, no (trade / full Brexit) negotiations would happen?

correct. And May and co have wasted so much time there is now zero chance of getting a bespoke deal

The EU will not even consider anything on trade until those 3 things have been sorted. As at lest one of them is insoluble then thats it. No trade deal

Maybot and co also have hardly anyone with the expertise to even try to reach a deal

If there are so many able minds working on it, why haven't any of them presented a plausible solution to the Irish problem?

Oh good some brinkmanship. Who will blink first?

Tough question ?

It was you THM. 8)

Que?

You answered your own who will blink post.

Sorry, facetious I know.

If there are so many able minds working on it, why haven't any of them presented a plausible solution to the Irish problem?

Because the politicians are both dim and deluded as well as the fact there is no solution that satisfies the Eire government, The EU, the DUP, and the tories lunatic fringe

Because the politicians are both dim and deluded as well as the fact there is no solution that satisfies the Eire government,

So here's an idea. Why not make finding a solution a prequisite fior starting proper negotiations?. Why has everyone tihought of that already?

TM should go for the jugular this week and demand a "jobs first Brexshit"

That will teach 'em

Why not make finding a solution a prequisite fior starting proper negotiations?

Stop it with the sensible suggestions. Given that there appear to be enough idealogues on both sides, I reckon we've got about this >.< much chance of that happening.

❓

teamhurtmore - Member
Oh good some brinkmanship. Who will blink first?

As Mike said.

There is no brinkmanship from the EU here. They have a sensible and predictable position that they have stuck to from day one. Whereas may and co started from a ridiculous premise ( have our cake and eat it) and have no clear of coherent position on any issue.

Well hopefully the UK as they are bluffing, no plan, no solutions & no hope really.

That doesn't sound good

the EU and Ireland are completely right to point out flaws in these and reject inappropriate solutions.

How can they reject something that doesn't exist?

They have a sensible and predictable position that they have stuck to from day one

Quite. Avoid negotiations on substantive issues. Box U.K. Into a corner. Do what they always do. Only this time it's far, far riskier. Who will blink first ?

very insightful THM as always there, maybe grab a coffee first...

Perhaps if you didn't selectivly quote to remove context the statement would have made sense (like I wrote it) they are free to reject, comment and all the rest on anything the UK puts foward (in the future so it doesn't have to exist right now but it better had do soon - the UK is running out of time and not delivering anything near what it needs to in time for a decent discussion and negotiation - like the person who send you a report for review 2mins before it needs issued.)

very insightful THM as always there, maybe grab a coffee first...

Thank you x2 but there's enough froth already so will pass on the coffee.

Perhaps if you didn't selectivly quote to remove context the statement would have made sense

Perhaps .. but you did contradict yourself would you like cappuccino, latte or Americano?

they are free to reject, comment and all the rest on anything the UK puts forward

They are. Let's hope they are not waiting too long. When do you think the UK might have something to discuss?

the UK is running out of time and not delivering anything near what it needs to in time for a decent discussion and negotiation

You missed "and the EU" but otherwise reasonably accurate

The EU has nothing to deliver. It's not asking for brexit. It doesn't know what the UK is looking for (other than a mishmash of contradictory interviews and speeches from the three brexiteers and their glorious leader)

Yes it does and they are aware of the sticking points in what we would like to achieve. They are obvious to all.

Some small compromises have been reached but substantive issues remain - unfortunately the Eu doesn't want to engage on those issues yet. Very odd, unless it's a deliberate tactic

That's remarkable THM. You're trying to stick blame on the EU for the UK making inconsistent and impossible demands with no plausible solution.

THM, I demand you give me a unicorn. If you don't come up with constructive proposals towards my getting a unicorn, it will all be on your head.

No I am not

You may demand until the cows come home. It won't get you very far

I’ll give you a unicorn, it’ll be beautiful, it’ll be the greatest unicorn ever*

*Note; unicorn not guaranteed.

THM, you're fired. I'm negotiating with igm from now on.

Sorry thecaptain, I just remembered I want to do a unicorn deal with THM first.

And maybe start a war with someone. Not really bothered who, but it’ll be to defend the citizens of the Unicorn States of Amnesia when I do. I need a small isolated, easily defeated country.

Once you have found the unicorn I will start proper negotiations - that sounds reasonable doesn't it?

Er you what

Perhaps .. but you did contradict yourself would you like cappuccino, latte or Americano?

On other matters is it causation or correlation to link the mood of some posters and the name at the top of this list
https://www.oddschecker.com/politics/british-politics/next-prime-minister

Surprised Ugo Ehiogu isn't higher up on the list given some of the names....

Poor old Vince!

(Just submitting my analysis on impact of Brexshit that I co-wrote last week. Sods Law TM might actually say something important in Florence tomorrow and it will need a redraft!!)

TM might actually say something important

😆

Everyone knows you can't farm unicorns, they have to be reared free range or their horns fall off.

Maybot won't say anything that important, unless she's had a complete OS update.
At best some minor tweaks to EU citizens offer, nothing but unicorns for the NI border and a £20bn downpayment on our exit bill.

Will be interesting to see what the hard Brexit clowns in the Tory party have to say about that, I suspect Redwoods pulse may even breach 20bpm for a short while. Johnson will be ruffling his hair in preparation for the pre-arranged doorstepping, Mogg probably beating a servant with excitement that he'll get to be outraged on QT soon.

TM might actually say something important in Florence tomorrow

"Brexit means Brexit".

"Strong and stable".

"No deal is better than a bad deal".

"Deep and special partnership".

Right that's that done. What's next?

Sods Law TM might actually say something important in Florence tomorrow and it will need a redraft!!

I wouldn't lose much sleep worrying about that

Brexit means Brexit

repeat to fade....

TM might actually say something important in Florence tomorrow

I'll have a pint of whatever it was lead to this statement. 😀

Unicorns, we want unicorns!

I need a small isolated, easily defeated country.

I've heard that before.

a small isolated, easily defeated country

we resemble that remark...

Breaking news.

BoJo threatening to resign having found out May is speaking[b] in[/b] Florence. Apparently he though she was speaking to Ms Nightingale.

I need a small isolated, easily defeated country

Ireland?

Ireland?

Well they did kick the English out, or if your generous got a stalemate (NI) so probably not the best example.

"No deal is better than a bad deal".

Can you imagine starting divorce proceedings with that line?

"Okay, don't slam the door on the way out."

[url= https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/sep/21/liar-boris-johnson-europe-trust-britain-brexit-bill ]https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/sep/21/liar-boris-johnson-europe-trust-britain-brexit-bill[/url]

I don't know why anyone is worried about national humiliation as a result of asking for Brexit to be called off. Boris et al are achieving this anyway!

We need to back out of this quickly, before the rest of Europe realise truly what a bunch of insular muppets we really are!

No, we just need to make it work

The decision has been made

[quote=teamhurtmore ]No, we just need to make it work
The decision has been made

Cool. So when will thecaptain be getting his unicorn?

I don't know why anyone is worried about national humiliation as a result of asking for Brexit to be called off. Boris et al are achieving this anyway!

I'm just going to put this out there, in case it hadn't crossed your mind yet.... 3 words....

Tory. Party. Conference.

With the barking mad swivel-eyed loons most definitely in the ascendency, and still giddy on their 'victory', and with Euro-bashing, and 'I'm more Brexit than you' being the flavour of the day generally, can you just picture how toe-curlingly embarrassing its going to be?

An unholy cacophony of xenophobic, flag-waving, closed-minded, blame-Jonny-foreigner, 2-world-wars-and-a-world-cup babbling, as the blue-rinse cadavers in the audience cheer on in a rapturous, demented fervour, like some hellish undead vision of a Brit winning Wimbledon*

And these people are apparently in charge and running the country

To paraphrase Trainspotting

Some hate the Tories. I don't. They're just ****ers. We, on the other hand, are COLONISED by ****ers. Can't even find a decent culture to be colonized BY. We're ruled by effete assholes. It's a SHITE state of affairs to be in, Tommy, and ALL the fresh air in the world won't make any ****king difference

I don't think I can stand to watch it! It'll be like a BNP rally in a home for the terminally bewildered!

* A proper one! A nice boy from the home counties. Not some frightful interloper from the provinces.

binners - Member

I don't know why anyone is worried about national humiliation as a result of asking for Brexit to be called off. Boris et al are achieving this anyway!

I'm just going to put this out there, in case it hadn't crossed your mind yet.... 3 words....

Tory. Party. Conference.

With the barking mad swivel-eyed loons most definitely in the ascendency, and still giddy on their 'victory', and with Euro-bashing, and 'I'm more Brexit than you' being the flavour of the day generally, can you just picture how toe-curlingly embarrassing its going to be?

An unholy cacophony of xenophobic, flag-waving, closed-minded, blame-Jonny-foreigner, 2-world-wars-and-a-world-cup babbling, as the blue-rinse cadavers in the audience cheer on in a rapturous, demented fervour, like some hellish undead vision of a Brit winning Wimbledon*

And these people are apparently in charge and running the country

To paraphrase Trainspotting

Some hate the Tories. I don't. They're just *. We, on the other hand, are COLONISED by *. Can't even find a decent culture to be colonized BY. We're ruled by effete assholes. It's a SHITE state of affairs to be in, Tommy, and ALL the fresh air in the world won't make any ****king difference

I don't think I can stand to watch it!

* A proper one! A nice boy from the home counties. Not some frightful interloper from the provinces.

Posted 6 minutes ago # Report-Post

Yep, this fiasco and football hooliganism - what a wonderful public face we show to Europe.

teamhurtmore - Member

No, we just need to make it work

The decision has been made

Posted 12 minutes ago # Report-Post

Brilliant!

So, no need to worry, then. Let's just "make it work". Phew.

Boris Johnson and Liam Fox's 'strategy' summed up beautifully.

"Details, details, don't bother me with details, just tell me when it's done".

No, we just need to make it work

And can it be "made to work" before March 2019? Not a cats chance in hell. This isn't about whether it is a good idea or a bad idea. Just is it practicable. Can customs get a system in place, no, can border force get officers in place, no. etc etc etc.

As for the laughable idea that a decision has been made, what decision was that? To give power to the Tory party? Sorry no one won the last election despite May carrying on like nothing has changed. Seem to be seeing some questions over the DUP bung and how long till that fails to materialise. It was not a binding referendum and certainly no more binding than another election.

If Kenyan courts can overthrow the result of a "democratic" election, why can't the UK courts do the same when the same questions have arisen?

Remember it has to be done, here come the Unicorns
[img] [/img]

Danny I am working very hard on the details that affect me and making the necessary preparations. Perhaps you could do the same. It's going to happen however much you might complain

Get ready
Get on with it

teamhurtmore - Member
Danny I am working very hard on the details that affect me and making the necessary preparations. Perhaps you could do the same. It's going to happen however much you might complain

Glad your working on your bit but you are still screwed if/when Tory self destruct hits it.

No, we just need to make it work

The decision has been made

If that's how British politics works, why aren't the Whigs still in charge?

Are you working on the NI border issue?
What about the trade deal?
The exit payments?
The FoM issues?

[i]Someone Else[/i] will sort that stuff out.

Otherwise just be a quitling and GET ON WITH IT!

No, we just need to make it work
The decision has been made

Cool. Looking forward to the unicorn. Glad it's not my problem to find one. I'll have a red white and blue one if that's ok with you.

teamhurtmore - Member

Danny I am working very hard on the details that affect me and making the necessary preparations. Perhaps you could do the same. It's going to happen however much you might complain

Get ready
Get on with it

Posted 20 minutes ago #

I really, really hope you are missing the point wilfully here in an attempt to get a rise. Otherwise, well, you're just making yourself look silly. 😐

Danny I am working very hard on the details that affect me and making the necessary preparations. Perhaps you could do the same. It's going to happen however much you might complain

Get ready
Get on with it

Yes, I'm in the process of signing a contract with a German company, and have looked up the possibility of relocating my company to within the EU in case that becomes necessary for future contracts. Apparently Estonia is quite flexible in terms of residency, if the UK loses a bit of tax revenue then so be it.

But given that brexit basically can't happen, I'm not going to lose too much sleep over it in the meantime.

[quote=teamhurtmore ]Danny I am working very hard on the details that affect me and making the necessary preparations. Perhaps you could do the same. It's going to happen however much you might complain
Get ready
Get on with it

FFS THM, get on with it. I'd already done all that I could to make it work months ago. Mind you I haven't promised anybody a unicorn...

Given that religion is taboo on STW I will refrain from quoting St Francis of Assisi's serenity prayer and just say that we can only deal with what we can control and what is in front of us. I can't do anything about the Irish border. I will leave that to those who are better qualified

A hard brexshit will be negative for us for sure but - again a tabbo opinion here - the costs for EU may be even greater. We shall see who blinks first!!!!

and just say that we can only deal with what we can control and what is in front of us. I can't do anything about the Irish border. I will leave that to those who are better qualified

As for blinking first I'd say May, right when the knife hits her back, followed by Borris realising he's not PM then the collective sigh as a GE is called again.