[quote=wicki ]Even though I am a remainer this article say it all for meand sums up the way soo many people I speak to feel.
http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-38301495
In the true blue Cotswolds, I met a Conservative Party member who despaired that, in his own words, two whole aisles in his local Tesco had been given over to Polish food.
He was not a racist, nor even a xenophobe, but he was frustrated that cultural change had come to his neighbourhood without notice or consultation.
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I, and I believe most right wingers, are all for free trade. That's not the same as what the EU is, I don't see why that's a difficult concept. The UK should be able to open free trade agreements with the US and the commonwealth, as part of the EU we are not able to. We are better off out.
It isn't, you guys are simply misunderstanding it, deliberately or not. From R Hon Hugo Swire
Today I want to debunk a myth. The myth that our membership of the EU somehow limits our engagement with the Commonwealth. I will argue that it enhances it. Some have asserted that if we left the EU, UK-Commonwealth trade would increase and migration flows rebalance in favour of Commonwealth countries. I maintain this is wishful thinking. Others suggest that we should choose between the two institutions. I maintain that they are complementary. It is not an either-or choice. The UK needs and can have both.
We are - the EU and Commonwealth are not conflicting - they complement each other as illustrated by the leaders of C'wealth countries advocating our Remain.
We are not better off - its a lose:lose:lose scenario
https://www.gov.uk/government/speeches/the-eu-and-the-commonwealth-the-uks-place-in-both--2
I love the way that the quote doesn't actually 'debunk' anything, it merely disagrees
We, the UK, cannot enter into free trade agreements with commonwealth nations while a member of the EU. You know that very well THM, it is the very definition of something which "limits our engagement with the Commonwealth"
There's nothing to debunk.
Of course, I do. So why would I post what I did?
I think you'll also find most folk labelled as 'right wing' don't want free trade, as epitomised by Trump who wants protection for US businesses.
labelled as
Well, there's your problem you see...
We, the UK, cannot enter into free trade agreements with commonwealth nations while a member of the EU.
Yes we can and we do. You know that very well ninfan, or at least you should do.
I think you'll also find most folk labelled as 'right wing' don't want free trade
Completely the opposite, surely. The lines may be becoming blurred with the new distinctions in politics, it not being a right/left choice anymore, but free trade is Adam Smith to the core.
Adam Smith was a liberal.
he also thought that morally all people would help the poor as well
He was much more proud of theory of moral sentiments
You never hear this part of the invisible hand quoted do you
I think he would be appalled by how his legacy has been bastardised by the right
The rich only select from the heap what is most precious and agreeable. They consume little more than the poor, and in spite of their natural selfishness and rapacity, though they mean only their own conveniency, though the sole end which they propose from the labours of all the thousands whom they employ, be the gratification of their own vain and insatiable desires, they divide with the poor the produce of all their improvements. They are led by an invisible hand to make nearly the same distribution of the necessaries of life, which would have been made, had the earth been divided into equal portions among all its inhabitants, and thus without intending it, without knowing it, advance the interest of the society, and afford means to the multiplication of the species.
He was very wrong about the nature of the rich unfortunately they dont GAS in the main.
Still agreeing with THM here ...it really is the season of good will to all men
Happy christmas one and all
[i]Completely the opposite, surely.[/I]
Assumption, the mother of all f*** ups.
Assumption, the mother of all f*** ups.
What do you think I assumed?
I consider myself to be right wing, - I've only not voted Conservative once in 40 years. But I'm socially liberal if economically conservative. Free trade is very much part of what I believe in.
The right is as broad a church as any. Pigeonholing all those of the right to a single set of criteria maybe makes it easier to rile against, but I doubt it leads to better understanding.
Oh - and I voted Remain.
[i]What do you think I assumed? [/I]
That right-wingers believe in free-trade.
A lot of right wingers DO believe in free trade.
And what do the rest of them believe in ?
Santa Trump and the Christmas Farage bringing them a white Christmas.And what do the rest of them believe in ?
I, and I believe most right wingers, [b]say we [/b]are all for free trade.
Fixed.
That quote about favouring trade with countries the other side of the world, with whom we don't have good trading terms, rather than those closer, that we do have great terms with, because of shared "culture", says it all to me.
He was very wrong about the nature of the rich unfortunately they dont GAS in the main.
"GAS" speculation is pointless, tax law means top 1% paying 30% of the taxes and thus providing all those schools and hospitals. We discussed having tax based on morality on the other thread. If it was setup that way people accross the spectrum simply wouldn't pay. It's about the kaw and not whether anyone apparently cares or not
Re the Labour Party for Momentum / Alliance Workers Liberty / Socialist Workers Party / Stop the War etc to end up with 100 MPs and associated researchers would be a massive step forward. They then have people in lucrative paid positions and access to Short Money, none of which they have now. The fact they don't have governmental power won't matter as they will still be far better off than they have ever been. They will see it as a long term project whilst trousering the £££ which is much more than you can raise selling a few communist newspapers
A lot of right wingers DO believe in free trade.
Of course they do, free trade is a fundamentally right wing philosophy. The left favour protectionism. That's an age old and long held trueism. Heath took us into the EEC in order to wrest long term economic control from the left. Benn, McDonnell and Corbyn have long been against the EU as it ties their hands from imposing protectionist tariffs and nationalising stuff.
Tariffs, visas and state control… …these are a few of your favourite things.
Its not and I definitely have never ever accused you of GASIt's about the kaw and not whether anyone apparently cares or not
PLenty of folk are willing to pay their taxes and pay more - JK ROwling springs instantly to mind. She does GAS.
My lord your world view is hysterical in its Trump like simplicity/stupidity- watch that rampant socialist engage in protectionism.Heath took us into the EEC in order to wrest long term economic control from the left.
May I have a direct quote form heath stating that was his reason?
Stop making things up you as you just look like a buffoon
*
That quote about favouring trade with countries the other side of the world, with whom we don't have good trading terms, rather than those closer, that we do have great terms with, because of shared "culture", says it all to me.
Eh?
It's sheer common sense that shared language and culture make for better trading opportunities and relations, and that it makes sense for us to have free trade relationships with those countries. Countries with a commonwealth legal background also share similar principles of civil and contract law. They have odd cultural similarities like driving on the left hand side of the road, food, agricultural methods, all sorts. UK market share is consistently higher in places with this shared cultural appreciation. Until the 1960's empire citizens had complete freedom of movement, why on earth get rid of this and then replace it with EU freedom of movement, it makes no sense at all.
Edit, it's just occurred to me that the reason for your contempt is that you are being lazy and prejudiced in thinking that by 'cultural' I mean either colour or religion - well, suffice to say I went to college with all sorts, from black Kenyan agricultural students to Canadian and Indian forestry students - and there was a shed load greater cultural appreciation & similarity between us than any Bulgarian or Romanian migrant.
It's sheer common sense that shared language and culture make for better trading opportunities and relations. Countries with a commonwealth legal background also share similar principles of civil and contract law. They have odd cultural similarities like driving on the left hand side of the road, food, agricultural methods, all sorts. UK market share is consistently higher in places with this shared cultural appreciation. Until the 1960's [b]empire citizens[/b] had complete freedom of movement, why on earth get rid of this and then replace it with EU freedom of movement, it makes no sense at all.
What did these Empire Citizens do the first opportunity that they had? And more to the point, why?
This has to be troll post of the thread. Great stuff. 😀
ninfan - Member
Edit, it's just occurred to me that the reason for your contempt is that you are being lazy and prejudiced in thinking that by 'cultural' I mean either colour or religion - well, suffice to say I went to college with all sorts, from black Kenyan agricultural students to Canadian and Indian forestry students - and there was a shed load greater cultural appreciation & similarity between us than any Bulgarian or Romanian migrant.
Any of them? That's quite the survey you've done
Edit, it's just occurred to me that the reason for your contempt is that you are being lazy and prejudiced in thinking that by 'cultural' I mean either colour or religion - well, suffice to say I went to college with all sorts, from black Kenyan agricultural students to Canadian and Indian forestry students - and there was a shed load greater cultural appreciation & similarity between us than any Bulgarian or Romanian migrant.
Of cpourse there's greater cultural commonality between the British Empire and Colonies, they've had a good couple of hundred of years to learn what mother england wanted them to do.
We've only had 40 odd years to learn about our closest neighbours after having previously being at war with most of them.
Lazy and prejudiced? Make me laugh.
Some of my best friends are...
I do find it interesting that you favour free movement and free trade of the Empire but reject the same coming from the EU. Is it because you're not the boss anymore?
Ah, white mans burden, very Islington...
Ah, white mans burden, very Islington...
WTF?
You've lost the plot, mate.
any Bulgarian or Romanian migrant
What is your problem with people from these countries? Is it personal?
Those I've worked, or ridden, or just chatted with have seemed pretty damn sorted.
What is you perceived cultural divide with these people?
And the French, Italian, German, Swedes… etc etc…
tax law means top 1% paying 30% of the taxes
Tax law or the disparity between the top 1% and the other 99% in terms of earnings. Both have an impact.
Of course there is a disparity there is a virtually unlimited supply of cheap labour globally.
Its a bit late now to call for unity, she seems to be very good at promoting the opposite (not as bad as trump tbf),
us citizens of nowhere are not amused.
She can have unity once she calls off this Brexit silliness.
And Jamba, that wasn't the question. Of course there is disparity, though as I recall the UK is worse than the EU average, but I was asking how much of your statement is due to bosses paying themselves handsomely as opposed to a progressive tax system?
Rough percentages are fine.
Voldemort's wife can go do one. Unity schmunity.
Another famous call for 'unity':
The National Government will therefore regard it as its first and supreme task to restore to the German people unity of mind and will. It will preserve and defend the foundations on which the strength of our nation rests. It will take under its firm protection Christianity as the basis of our morality, and the family as the nucleus of our nation and our state. Standing above estates and classes, it will bring back to our people the consciousness of its racial and political unity and the obligations arising therefrom. It wishes to base the education of German youth on respect for our great past and pride in our old traditions. It will therefore declare merciless war on spiritual, political and cultural nihilism. Germany must not and will not sink into Communist anarchy.
We have a peogressive tax system. The rich pay a hogher percentage of their income in direct and indirect taxes and they oay a substantially higher amount. Bosses and middle managers have been able to pay themselves more by cutting costs due to oitsoircing peoduction to the lowest cost provider. This trend is now clearly being seen in middle management jobs which are going abroad too.
There will be no unity until Remainers accept they lost the Referendum as their (weak) arguments where rejected and there will be no unity until the insults stop, which from this thread we can see will be no time soon.
Variois securitynexoerrs queing upmto state the obvious. Shengen is a security disaster.
There will be no unity until Remainers accept they lost the Referendum as their (weak) arguments where rejected and there will be no unity until the insults stop, which from this thread we can see will be no time soon.
Yes, misinformation and downright lies trumped weak arguments unfortunately. The insults will go on for a long time and I for one will continue with my view that we should remain part of the EU. Of course that makes no difference at all to what the future holds, but that is normal. We have no power other than to occasionally vote for which particular flavour of incompetents we elect to office.
Variois securitynexoerrs queing upmto state the obvious. Shengen is a security disaster.
Only in so much as the border between England and Wales is a security disaster, or between Oxfordshire and Bucks. Should we have tightened up security measures between Leeds/Bucks and that there London in 2005? Could have saved a lot of lives.
Prove that border control prevents terrorists from travelling and you have an argument.
Show me how local we have to go before this anti Schengen argument becomes logical.
#Scared
EDIT: They're only insults if they're untrue and disparaging to the recipient.
DOUBLE EDIT: I personally find they way that some of the guff is put up here and presented as fact is rather insulting to the intelligence of the majority of 9 year olds. #FACT
Insults?
Like those in the Daily Mail?
And in the meantime, let's put the tuition fees up, without telling anyone, not even the DFE website.
Can we build a wall round Kent to keep Farage away? Make him pay for it too. Sounds like a win-win.
There'll be no unity from me until we have some sort of plan that doesn't look like a complete bit of a mess.
Yes, misinformation and downright lies trumped weak arguments unfortunately. The insults will go on for a long time and I for one will continue with my view that we should remain part of the EU.
I'm sorry, but you have to be spectacularly ( willingly ) blind not to see that almost all of the remain case was utter bollocks. Lie upon lie upon lie. See also below.
The weakness of the arguments for remain were weak because there was no love whatsoever for the EU in the UK.
[url= http://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/news/economic-growth-confounds-warnings-of-remain-campaign-ptbtd3nkh ]http://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/news/economic-growth-confounds-warnings-of-remain-campaign-ptbtd3nkh[/url]
Variois securitynexoerrs queing upmto state the obvious. Shengen is a security disaster.
Remind me again when the UK signed up and had open borders with the EU.
I reckon pre schengen it wouldn't be that hard to get from Germany to Italy via France without passing a single border check, there was a point where they didn't even wake up to look at passports when they were manned
Aahh yes the insults must stop
As much as brexies might think this is how you go about creating unity, it really isn't.....
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