Elected politicians?
I'm not allowed to vote in the General election but can't remember my wife, in laws, neighbours, work colleagues, bloke down the road voting TM in a general election.
"That's not a society I want to live in. I am a lawyer (a solicitor) and am not filled with joy at my future prospects (having already had two job offers withdrawn as a result on the uncertainty caused by brexit as it concerns my sector)."
Brexit is a job creation scheme for me-learned friends.
Jamba - hilarious. Brexies are forward looking my bum. I seem to remember a make Britain great again line. That by definition is backward looking and assumes we are worse than we were - well speak for yourself.
What we saw was a vote conducted by a bunch of millionaire chancers (Farage, ABanks, JRM etc) playing on the fears of the downtrodden (and yes mainstream politics should have done something for them, but that isn't a Brexit issue).
'Twas us steadfast remainers, proud to be part of a Britain that already is fairly great, and is part of one of the most interesting movements in the world, the expansionist free trade zone that is the EU (not without its problems, but it has done great things and may yet do more dispite the attempt of small minded Brexies to bring it down).
I appreciate you are all doom and gloom about the EU, but I remain optimistic, and I'll leave you with your pessimism.
Keep 'em coming - the Brexies are sounding increasingly bizarre.
Chris not our system is it ? Ours we elect individuals who may or may not be associated with a party, who may or may not remain with that party and who collectively decide on a Government and a PM. The Conservatives won a majority and are free to choose whoever they want for PM, chainging as often or as little as they like. I've no doubt there are many who voted for Hollande who wished they could have gotten rid of him years ago, he's not even remotely following the mandate (manifesto) he was elected on.
Those two reports (Swales and Casey) are well worth reading if you want to understand the background to Brexit, the Referendum result and to preapre for 2020.
IGM come the 2020 GE I think you'll find the Tories campaigning on the back of a very outward looking global trade manifesto and an EU in an increasingly negative downward spiral
Jamba - you may be correct. Given by then we may we'll have stuck two fingers in the eyes of our European neighbours and whether a global trade manifesto is better, worse or indifferent relative to the positive future we might have help our neighbours to prosper and enjoying the same in return it will be the only option we're left with.
But remember as you continually point out, a good number of Brexy voters were natural labour types from Middlesborough - if you think they were voting for a global trade agenda led by the Tories... actually you don't do you.
We have discussed global trade previously, and you know that as a committed europhile, I still think global trade, and indeed global free trade (including global freedom of movement by the way) is an excellent goal. To make it work, you need to make sure that there is a level playing field otherwise you get some undesirable effects. So you do it one country at a time bringing them up to speed before you bring the next one on board. The EU may be expanding a little fast, but expansion probably is the right thing.
We have turned away from that, towards a darker place. Look at the facts. More racism, Brexies advocating lower safety standards to try and make us competitive (I thought we were going to be super wonderful so why would we need that), other Brexies advocating reducing pensions regulation so they can make more money out of that too (I seem to remember you saying something a little like that too, it was going to make you more money I think but I may be wrong, but I remain to be convinced that pensions is an area needing less regulation given the shenanigans of the last few years), inflation coming (guaranteed with a currency shift like we've just had and who do you think that will hurt?). It's not good and it's not pessimism - it's real and it's now. Maybe it will magically get better if and when we push the A50 button, but do you want the £1 bet on that?
I understand your pessimistic view of the future, EU going down the tubes and all we can do is cut ourselves off from them, but I'm a little to optimistic for that.
I agree with IBM the vast majority of working class Brexiteers I talk to sure as **** didn't vote for deregulation wheeler dealer type global trade, they want what Trump promised less globalisation and more protectionism - this is the fundamental flaw - what they want can not be economically delivered in 2016 world - the only way the Tories can make this Brexit work is by "deregulation wheeler dealer race to the bottom on corporation tax" approach- Jamba you view this stuff from the top down not the bottom up. I have tried to explain the economics to various Brexiteers and they think it's a load of bollocks and that the mere fact they won a referendum makes them think they have some control/power and God knows why think that what ever govt is in power they will do as they instruct?
The only way the country will survive post brexit will be at the expense of the poor and unemployed working class - Jamba Ninfan etc you all need to talk to pissed off poor people and when the govt shit on them post brexit and they realise that their vote in a GE makes NO difference to
who is in charge? They (the great unwashed) will never be given another referendum again - they blew it and in 3 to 5 years when the minimum wage has not gone up and the working time directive is scrapped and annual inflation runs at 5% with a £ worth less than a € then "my son you will be truly poor"
oldman I voted for our Government to decide our future direction. If the country elects a Labour Government focused on the bottom up then so be it.
I haven't seen anything on reducing pension regulation ? Personally I think we need more flexibility in what we can do with our money, we'll never get the flex of Singapre I imagine where they can do buy-to-let but we could certainly use much freerer use of the final pot than annuities or the nuclear fully taxed lump sum
we'll never get the flex of Singapre
What's the obsession with Singapore as a model for the world? It's a tiny city country with a very authoritarian government with very little industry and resources etc. Not sure you could scale it up to anything much bigger.
No fascination just familar with that model having lived there. Many locals I know live in an HDB (subsidised govt housing) and own a s****y Condo worth much more they rent out to ex-pats. That was funded in part by their pension fund (you can use your savings to guaranty a buy to let mortgage). No state pension there just compulsory saving into their Sovereign Wealth Fund and you get out based on what you've saved.
In 2020 tories wil be split over europe and will be desparatly trying to avoid blame for the worst recession we have ever had with unemployment up to thatcher levels
Its already an utter disaster. Its going to get much much worse
Many locals I know live in an HDB (subsidised govt housing) and own a s****y Condo worth much more they rent out to ex-pats.
Sounds awesome where do I sign up... Also a what point do you think pushing more cash into an over inflated property market is a good thing? One of the biggest bits of inequality in the UK today is housing with a section of society looking unlikely to ever own a house.
No one in Hartlepool gives a **** about Singapore and don't have a pension pot to worry about.
Bottom up view.
The only reason the Brexit vote won was down to poor working class voters and nothing you talk about Jamba in the brave new world helps them...
TJ. A disaster is what Osbourne/Cameron/IMF and the OECD predicted/threatened and we have nothing like that, best growth in the G7 in fact. 2020 let's wait and see, John McDonnell sees great opportunity.
People voted to take back control. No ECJ, no budget contribution and no freedom of movement. I think many Leavers are happy for that to come at a cost if need be, those at the bottom oldman saw they had nothing to lose and any cost would be paid by the rich anyway. Personally I think we will be much better off, many of the Leave voters I spoke to just said "we'll be fine"
TJ. A disaster is what Osbourne/Cameron/IMF and the OECD predicted/threatened and we have nothing like that, best growth in the G7 in fact.
TBH Jambalaya this is a bit like telling someone at the Christmas party they are going to have a hang over, but it's only midnight. It's coming and it's going to hurt, look at how much the BoE had to print in the week after the Vote, wait till the real thing happens.
That kind of opinion nails perfectly the self serving nature of the senior Vote Leave figures, their amazing jingosistic arrogance confirms their superiority over the europeans (what insecurities must gnaw at their insides that they need to assert themselves so?)
not giving a **** that berxit will torpedo the economy, because they own plenty of property, stocks and cash to see them through the shit that those they conviced to vote with them will have to deal with.
the same ability that enables them to think that they are doing people a favour by denying them benefits, closing their libraries and keeping education as a 2 tier system- 1 for the rich, 1 for the poor.
and happily blaiming the EU and immigrants for their dwindling life opportunities
Sadly people find it easier to believe that they cant even get a job on a decent wage in tescos because of immigrants despite seeing that the world has chanegd around us every day....
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leaving the EU will only make the disenfranchised brexiters of sunderland and lincolnshire worse off,
regaining sovereignty or whatever nonsense VL claimed wont fix our demographic timebomb(quite the opposite) it wont fix the NHS staffing crisis, it wont turn the clock back to a fantasy land of 1950s brexilittle england and it certainly wont bring back jobs or self respect to the people weve left behind
@mike there is a market cliche of sell the rumour buy the fact. By pushing A50 out 9 months from the vote in June the Government has allowed the markets to fully absorb the news, business also. When A50 comes it will a surprise to precisely no one.
When A50 comes it will a surprise to precisely no one.
A50 isn't the surprise, currently nobody knows what will follow it, the government has a slim majority in order to push through stuff in 2019. The only thing people can be certain of it the worst case all out option. If people start planning for that then it's going to go downhill fast.
I reckon the markets right now don't think it'll happen.
I actually bought a not inconsiderable amount of euros recently when the rate spiked back up on the expectation it tanks when A50 is actually triggered and I'll sell for a profit. If it doesn't tank I've got my holiday money for the foreseeable 😆
That kind of opinion nails perfectly the self serving nature of the senior Vote Leave figures, their amazing jingosistic arrogance confirms their superiority over the europeans (what insecurities must gnaw at their insides that they need to assert themselves so?)
Spot on. Jambalaya certainly has an irrational and paranoid view of the ECJ.
I voted for our Government to decide our future direction. If the country elects a Labour Government focused on the bottom up then so be it.
Jamba - I'm going to call hypocrite. You didnt vote for the government (not least because in the UK until democracy is fundamentally change perhaps to PR you don't vote for a government - but we'll skip that) to decide our future direction as you wanted a referendum - so actually you wanted to tell HMG what to do. Also looking at those you might have voted for, parliament, (and assuming you voted Tory last time) th they are mainly remainers (plus the odd swivel eyed loon like JRM). You actually want to bully people into going against their conscience and beliefs on the back of a half and half vote.
Am I wrong anywhere? I think your true colours may be showing - best hide them quickly.
@mike there is a market cliche of sell the rumour buy the fact. By pushing A50 out 9 months from the vote in June the Government has allowed the markets to fully absorb the news, business also. When A50 comes it will a surprise to precisely no one.
Except it seems business/markets are using the the 9 months to prepare to leave. Check out how pension money is quitting the UK. Check out the due diligence being done. They haven't left yet - but the money men are preparing to go.
And if you're not part of it (Jamba), hats because you not part of it.
TJ. A disaster is what Osbourne/Cameron/IMF and the OECD predicted/threatened and we have nothing like that,
Leaving the silly comments about 4.5% recessions from those who don't understand basic economics, the bad outcomes have been almost exactly as predicted in the various models - and we have yet to see how those work through. No room for complacency yet - on the contrary, the opposite is true
Shock news again....
The British public will not accept a Brexit deal that leaves them worse off financially, a new poll suggests. In a sign that a majority of the public would be unwilling to accept an economically damaging hard Brexit, half of those who voted to leave the EU in June, including 62% of Labour voters and 59% of those in the north, would not be willing to lose any money at all as a consequence of Britain’s withdrawal.
And proving themselves the best of the bunch
Even among Ukip supporters – whose party has demanded May reject the article 50 process and instead leave the EU immediately by repealing the 1972 European Communities act – a substantial number, 39%, do not want to incur a financial loss because of Brexit.
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/dec/10/poll-public-will-not-accept-brexit-worse-off-tim-farron-ukip-lib-dem-yougov
To be honest I'm shocked... Truly I am
Would prefer white burgundy but one guest rarely strays beyond sauvignon blanc
You can get sauvignon blanc from Burgundy. In fact most of the major (and a few minor) grapes are represented in the region. Just saying.
You can (Saint-Bris) but not an obvious choice. IMO no need to deviate from what the region specialises in though (Chardonnay) - as these are among the most sublime wines in the world. Still the Sancerre went down a treat and complimented the food better (prawn curry dish) so no harm done. Plus it was considerably cheaper!!! 😉
Shock news again....
The British public will not accept a Brexit deal that leaves them worse off financially, a new poll suggests. In a sign that a majority of the public would be unwilling to accept an economically damaging hard Brexit, half of those who voted to leave the EU in June, including 62% of Labour voters and 59% of those in the north, would not be willing to lose any money at all as a consequence of Britain’s withdrawal.
And proving themselves the best of the bunchEven among Ukip supporters – whose party has demanded May reject the article 50 process and instead leave the EU immediately by repealing the 1972 European Communities act – a substantial number, 39%, do not want to incur a financial loss because of Brexit.
That was the "have cake and eat it" part of the Brexit deal.
The one where we leave the EU but don't lose any EU funding. The one where the £ is at an all time high and our Euro neighbours are clamouring to buy our scones & jam.
The total bollocks one...
leaving the EU will only make the disenfranchised brexiters of sunderland and lincolnshire worse off,
Well, watching this, I DGAS. They "listened to both sides" and voted Leave. So f*** 'em
those at the bottom oldman saw they had nothing to lose
You have got to be kidding. They have everything to lose...
[i]those at the bottom oldman saw they had nothing to lose[/I]
those at the bottom oldman [s]saw[/s] [b]thought[/b] they had nothing to lose
fixed it for you...
At least those at the bottom of the socio-economic scale have full employment to look forward to. I see a low taxed and deregulated industrial landscape with wages lower than SE Asia, sweatshop conditions, no HSE, no environmental regs, and no benefit safety net to fall back on. Labour will be cheaper than machines. It will be work or starve.
The Unions will regroup and Labour will once again become a force to be reckoned with (the only reason I can see for Labour not being vehemently anti-Brexit).
We joke about people wanting a return to the 1950's
I fear it will be nearer the conditions of the 1850's
Just got in and flipped TV on - Gove aaarhhh. When did he marry Clare Short and when did she lose the Brummie accent?
His fake sincerity is so nauseating
igm I voted Leave so in future our Government's of whatever colour could decide the future direction of our country. To be honest I don't have the feintist idea what you are talking about with your "true colours" remark. Penions ? I can imagine there may be some asset allocation adjustments (mine was mostly outside the UK and Europe, currently looking at switching it back/more US. Wife's 100% in US, she's hated economic prospects for France for last 10 years). Staff ? I doubt more than a handfull of people will go, most UK Pension managers manage UK funds so will stay where their clients are. As I said if Scotland had become independent I would have moved all my money away from Standard Life, I want a UK regulated pension fund manager with global asset allocation options.
welsh and others even Osbourne's ludicrously pessimistic scenarios had the UK's economy growing substantially over time (just less so than if we remained in the EU). So just to be clear even their Armageddon Scenrio was nothing like the 1950's or indeed 2016. It was a long term growth scenario.
Fred Godwin's primary problem was a catestrophic failure of judgement, he paid way over the odds for ABN Amro with it's large US subprime subsidiary. As for UK bank failures they where exclusively regional wannabees (RBS, HBOS, Northern Rock, Alliance and Leicester, Bradford and Bingley)
Some here don't think the ECJ is a real issue and that's their choice, Leavers did however. I don't see the US, Canada, Australia etc etc being subject to anything like the ECJ's far reaching legal jurisdiction. The US, Russia, China etc (it's a long list) aren't even members of the International Criminal Court.
Well of course they don't want to be worse off. They voted out to be better off. £360m a week better off. Some of them probably thought that meant EACH.
slowoldman you are back on very strong ground for Leave, the EU budget contribution. It doesn't matter to Leavers whether the number is £360m, £200m or £150m a week. It's all too much.
So why is the ECJ an issue?
Some here don't think the ECJ is a real issue and that's their choice, Leavers did however. I don't see the US, Canada, Australia etc etc being subject to anything like the ECJ's far reaching legal jurisdiction. The US, Russia, China etc (it's a long list) aren't even members of the International Criminal Court.
The shoddy leave literature that came through our door wasn't able to distinguish between the ECHR and the ECJ - typical of the Leaver lies you and others pedalled - so I doubt you have any proper understanding of the ECJ - I can't recall the said literature mentioning our own UK ECJ justices for instance.
And how do you think the WTO enforce their rules if not by a binding tribunal (which rules we will have lost the ability to now influence as a result of our withdrawal from the EU and as a result the WTO quad). Did you explain that to the leave voters - most I've spoken with haven't even heard of the WTO and are still clinging to the 'they need us more than we need them approach'!
I think the ECJ, must be the next scapegoat for when Brexit fails to make life better.
The people need a new enemy, lest they start blaming the people who actually made things worse.
jamba, I know that's the reason for voting leave and without knowing the nett saving (if any) taking into consideration any additional cost through being out (tariff's etc.) it was a decision based on little knowledge. But what's new?
It doesn't matter to Leavers [s]whether the number is £360m, £200m or £150m a week[/s] what the truth is.
FTFY
Jamba - I have read you previously telling us all that the poor downtrodden were caught in an economic trap of the EU's making, but now you are into JRM style devil take the hindmost global capitalism. The true colours statement reflected that. I am suggesting your motives in this are less than pure and it's mainly about getting shot of safe guards and making out like bandits. I don't think you care for sovereignty, or those failed by this government(and possibly previous ones) or about making Britain great - in fact you are happy to destroy Britain provided it opens up money making opportunities for the privileged elite.
That said, and I mean this most sincerely, I would love to be wrong on this because I like having intelligent people around even when I disagree with them (some would say especially) and I don't want you to turn out to be the person I just described. There's no malice in my view of you - just caution.
That make my position clear?
And on a lighter note...
Kitten heels trousergate
Don't get cross with Jamba… the bait and switch methods of the Leave campaign, and the reality of what Leaving will actually mean, are not his doing, even if he appears to have subscribed to it. It was career politicians and millionaires that sold the "sticking up for the little man" ruse, despite being the ones being most in favour of removing rules, regulations, and investments aimed at those most at danger from the effects of "global capitalism".
ps. I'm all in favour of global capitalism, it is what has made us prosperous as a nation, but think that supranational organisation is required to counteract some of its effects. You can't provide balance at just the national level anymore, to try and do so is futile.
Low wage, poorer conditions, international tax haven Britain isn't what many voted for.
igm you (and others) really need to drop the Brexit for personal gain line. It's really not the case.
molgrips the concept that a foreign court has superiority to the highest uk court does not sit well with many people me included. I frankly don't give a toss if it only impacts a handful of cases per anum. It's a non-starter for me and would always be a massive negative point. On it's own it's not a reason to leave the EU but it's right up there.
The budget payments are ridiculous, we should be largely flat (ie equal) and that is hugely generous given trade imbalance. I'll take WTO tarifs which provides a £20bn swing in our favour. I'd rather do a free trade deal with Japan and focus on hybrid/electric (where they are far ahead) and maybe stick an extra tax on diesels, Paris mayor is a lefty but she is right that the pollution is due to diesels. Hybrid is the future and the Japanese and Americans are far ahead. A free trade deal with the US makes sense as it's two countries of similar economic standing. It's time to look globally and decide where the future lies, it's definitely not with the EU
A free trade deal with the US will mean having to accept their much lower standard in many areas - like meat production for example. Personally I don't want that.
