[Closed] EU Referendum - are you in or out?

jambalaya - Member - Block User - Quote
Bob, my view is that Scots recognised that if UK leaves the EU an Independent Scotland is MUCH less likely as it would most certainly have to rejoin the EU from scratch, ie no opts outs and definitely taking the euro. That is a hard sell to Scots and will create a period where an Independent Scotland is not in the UK or the EU. Plus you have the (daft) logic that it's better to have Brussels in charge of your laws than the Tories in Westminster.

Absolute 100% bollocks

Jamba thats 100% the wrong way round. The UK leaving the EU makes an independent scotland in the EU much easier as Scotland simply would be the successor state. so if the scots wanted to use the EU referendum to leverage scots independence a vote for out would be more likely.

he trolls he scores

tjagain - Member

Jamba thats 100% the wrong way round.

Unfortunately it isn't.
As I have stated before, Scotland is not a member of the EU.
A newly independent Scotland would not be in the EU, it would be treated as a new country.
It would have to apply for membership of the EU same as any other country that isn't a member.
It's all in the treaties, which are all available on line, which I've linked to before.
Even the SNP said that they'd simply(!) change EU law to retain/gain membership.

[quote=teamhurtmore ]No Unicorns, one of them is on the front of my UK passport which means - apparently - that they exist.

Have you had a liquid lunch today with some MP chums?
As i said member states issue EU passports for citizens of their country. It snot hard to understand that what you said was not wholly accurate nor wholly inaccurate You are free to cite unicorns in the face of the facts as you see fit.
FWIW the UK also issues UK non EU passports as well for overseas territories citizens and others. No idea why we have two seeing as there are no EU passports , can you ask the unicorn ?
FROWNS
[img] [/img]

The UK leaving the EU makes an independent scotland in the EU much easier as Scotland simply would be the successor state. so if the scots wanted to use the EU referendum to leverage scots independence a vote for out would be more likely.

I concur.

If Scotland leaves the union at least one EU nation would veto Scotland's membership request. Apart from anything else, it will encourage other nationalist separatists in the EU.

If the UK left the EU that situation changes a bit. (Maybe not enough, but it changes.)

Eurobonds are a solution Cameron ignores.

As for blaming no growth on the inability to devalue, 50 American states have worked around this. They can all borrow from the Fed at the same rate though.

I'm not worried, the voice of a failed British PM who initiated the whole Brexit farce will be lost in the wind, he might as well be standing on the white cliffs shouting.

Bob and TJ your responses convince me I am 100% correct 🙂

The UK in it's entirety (ie Scotland and all) will be out of the EU by 2019. There isn't a snowballs chance in hell there will be an iS by then. As such an iS would be making a fresh application, there is no successor state nonsesne to be had. My view is Scots and the SNP are well aware of this. Any future Referendum (and I don't believe there will ever be another like 2014) would be fought on the basis that Scotland will be making a fresh application as a new member, join the long and skow cue, no opt outs etc.

Far more likely that an independent Scotland would join the EEA, via EFTA or similar… I can see Scottish voters going for that in a big way. Full EU membership is not the only option for them.

Once Art 50 goes in anything can happen. If I were a negociator for the euro zone I'd want representatives of the regional Uk assemblies at the table, and the first thing I'd offer them would be continued EU membership if they asked for it.

In the history of decolonisation many states declared their independence without a referendum. I don't see why Scotland would need another referendum, a vote by the elected representatives in the Scottish parliament would suffice.

Now that would trigger a tricky court case Edukator…

Edukator - given how narrow the previous vote was ie its not a clear majority of the populaton a referendum is a must. However the scottish government could hold one without Westminster "permission" and then use the result to declare UDI

Even that would be a nuclear option tho and far less desirable than a binding referendum with Westminster approval.

The EU citizenship "offer" is a wheeze by Brussels to try and maintain the influence of European Courts within the UK

Or maybe it's giving some 18m EU citizens what they want? I can't see a problem with this. It's just about freedom of movement - it's not full EU citizenship, and there's no requirement for the UK to recognise EU court jurisdiction, surely?

Plus you have the (daft) logic that it's better to have Brussels in charge of your laws than the Tories in Westminster.

(a) they are not only the ones in which the EU has competence.

(b) in any case I would consider that as preferable and so not daft for reasons to numerous to mention.

Jamba thanks for replying and for the link. It is only academic research based on the census rather than on polling data. It is certainly not based on the actual result for the local authority area. As Scotroutes said it is not strong evidence. You could just as well argue that Gordon the other constituency in the same local authority area must have returned a remain vote of 64% in order to produce the recorded 55% -45% victory for remain
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/06/23/leave-or-remain-eu-referendum-results-and-live-maps/

Edukator - Reformed Troll

Once Art 50 goes in anything can happen.

This is not true.

If I were a negotiator for the euro zone I'd want representatives of the regional UK assemblies at the table, and the first thing I'd offer them would be continued EU membership if they asked for it.

And I could offer you £squillion to lick my balls, it doesn't change the fact that I don't have £squillion to offer. 🙂

*It would require a change in EU law, and **you know what that would entail.

*Allowing "continued" membership.
**NOT licking my balls.

Unfortunately it isn't.

since when does that matter to the nats?

Bob and TJ your responses convince me I am 100% correct

An Englishman telling a Scot what theyre supposed to think. I want shot of this sanctimonious preaching.

You're not 100% correct. No doubt some will have voted tactically. A tiny, miniscule amount

I will not accept a blinkered man, who has continually been called out on his false facts, lecture me on the mood of MY country and fellow countrymen just because it fits his rhetoric.

Of the hundreds of my fellow Scots who I've discussed these issues with at great length, not one, regardless of how they voted in either referendum, cast their vote for any other reason apart from a desire to leave or remain in the EU

dont feed the parisian troll BOB TBH him disagreeing with you is as close as proof as you get on STW

Bob - I am beginning to think he really is trolling not actually saying what he believes.

As for blaming no growth on the inability to devalue, 50 American states have worked around this. They can all borrow from the Fed at the same rate though.

Perhaps Dave is being nice to his old friend Angela - the fundamental issue is that there is no system to recycle the surpluses that the system delivers for Germany. Forget their preaching to the S states, that's largely BS. They are as much sinners here as they have designed a system that feeds them and starves the periphery in perpetuity until BOOM! Still the lefties seem to love this and the wage deflation and/or mass unemployment forced upon the young and poor. Socialist solidarity - makes a Labour party meeting look harmonious.

I will not accept a blinkered man, who has continually been called out on his false facts, lecture me on the mood of MY country and fellow countrymen just because it fits his rhetoric.

Well it only balances the one you have on your side. Fair's fair Bob! A no score draw. 😉

^^ looks like he is not the only one fishing for a reaction

he wants a response, some of what he says is so out there that no one really could believe it
I am sure he is more RW than STW - not that that requires much effort- but the rest is just silly

A london dwelling parisian saying what scotland thinks 😯
i bet he has not spent more than week there in the last 20 years.- Dont answer as I wont believe you anyway 😉

I think the Scots, the Welsh and the NI should just force England to leave the UK. That way NI, Scot and Wales would retain EU membership.

@gordi understood, I think in England they released the data by polling station. I wonder why they did not in Scotland.

Far more likely that an independent Scotland would join the EEA, via EFTA or similar… I can see Scottish voters going for that in a big way. Full EU membership is not the only option for them.

Yes. This is a good point. I think full EU membership would be less likely for a variety of reasons, the euro being the main one.

There really is not (imo) anything particularly different in outlook and social issues between Scots, English, Welsh and Northern Irish. As TMH says attitudes to issues like immigration don't change just by moving a few miles North from Carlise or Berwick on Tweed. There are other factors at work in voting.

Well it only balances the one you have on your side

I'm not blinkered though. As per my earlier post I was a strong no voter.

Now, the Uk faces financial, social and cultural meltdown that I doubt we'll recover from in my lifetime.

An independent Scotland faces heavy financial risk too, so we may as well rip the band aid off in one quick movement and get the pain over. I'd rather we go it alone. At least we can only blame ourselves!

Jamba - just go an look at voting patterns over the last 10 years. tories in Scotland around 15%. UKIP under 1% Compare that to england.

Its Dunning kruger all over again

TJ is that so different from the North of England ? In Scotland you have a stronger Nationalist Party in the SNP than we have in England where that vote is split between UKIP and the Tories ie the Conservative and Unionist Party

I think the Scots, the Welsh and the NI should just force England to leave the UK. That way NI, Scot and Wales would retain EU membership.

Didn't the Welsh vote overwhelmingly to leave?

Why do they now get to cherry pick? Not even a proper country,anyway..... 😉
(****ing beautiful place, mind....)

Does wee nippy speak German because it will be hard blaming them for everything if you dont speak the lingo?

I wonder how many "shy" brexit voters would get a new "passport"

Will the European versions exist by then?

jambalaya - Member

TJ is that so different from the North of England ? In Scotland you have a stronger Nationalist Party in the SNP than we have in England where that vote is split between UKIP and the Tories ie the Conservative and Unionist Party

Yes

Firstly UKIP get hardly any of the vote here. And the UKIP vote is not the same as the SNP vote. One is a left of centre social democratic party with staying in europe as a priority, the other a far right party with xenophobia at its heart.

In scotland the right wing parties get under 20% of the vote. Even in the north of england its double that.

Jambas you forget that:

One [you guess which] wants Scottish corporation tax to 'be no higher than the rest of the UK if not lower"

The other wants to compete aggressively on corporation tax with suggested level 300bp below rest of Uk

Which is the far right party? Which is the one in the "race to the bottom" on corporation tax? Which gets more votes?

? In Scotland you have a stronger Nationalist Party in the SNP than we have in England where that vote is split between UKIP and the Tories ie the Conservative and Unionist Party

SOme of your posts are so obvious I am amazed folk still reply to them

Jambas, encore mon amis, avez-vous remarqué l'efficacité du logiciel de blocage* allégué par le petit homme qui vit sous le pont? C'est foutou peut-etre?

teamhurtmore - Member
Does wee nippy speak German because it will be hard blaming them for everything if you dont speak the lingo?

Was meinst du damit?

Don't get your point... Is there something I need to blame them for? Everything....

Ich check nicht was du meinst....

In other news .... 😉

Interesting blog from Communications Director of Vote Leave. He also makes the point that the focus on the £350m claim was perfect as it kept the discussion focused on an area Leave where strong, the EU budget. Whether the weekly number was £150m, £200m or £350m for Leave leaning voters all these numbers where far too high.

Also an insight into crossover between social media and web data mining into Political campaigning including the £50m Euro 2016 game. I declined to share my address book with the Vote Leave app but I am sure they found such data very useful.

http://www.politico.eu/article/how-to-win-a-referendum-brexit-inside-story-vote-leave-campaign/

Huffington Post have their take on the piece

http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/david-cameron-folded-vote-leave-paul-stephenson-nigel-farage-eu-renegotiation-michael-gove-boris-johnson_uk_584abdeee4b0fccb67996ef3?utm_hp_ref=uk

Finally I certainly agree that Cameron's reneogtiation backfired, he got nothing and was blocked by the EU from even asking the right questions. That whole fiasco played into Leave's hands and served to reduce Cameron's credibility

TJ why not compare the social and welfare polices of UKIP and Front Nationale with the SNP ? You'll find them very similar in my view. Yes there is a difference on the EU, UKIP believes the UK is best out, SNP that an iS is best in and FN is somewhere in the middle - definitely out of the euro but maybe in the EU. It seems daft to me to believe some Nationalist parties are far-right and yet somehow the SNP is not. IMO it's parties like UKIP which are far less right sided than their critics claim.

Don't get your point... Is there something I need to blame them for? Everything....

Alpin, I think TMH's point is that the SNP (Alex Salmond) are always blaming Westminster for just about everything so an Independent Scotland joining the EU will need to blame Germany for all that nasty austerity etc and hence speaking German would be useful.

TMH it's a bluff

Once Art 50 goes in anything can happen. If I were a negociator for the euro zone I'd want representatives of the regional Uk assemblies at the table, and the first thing I'd offer them would be continued EU membership if they asked for it.

In the history of decolonisation many states declared their independence without a referendum. I don't see why Scotland would need another referendum, a vote by the elected representatives in the Scottish parliament would suffice.

Yup Scotland could declare UDI, it worked out well for Zimbabwe.

The UK is the EU member. The individual Parliaments do not have the constitutional powers to accept the jurisdiction of the ECJ and that's is (in my view) the sting in the tail of the "EU citizenship offer".

Sorry for 6 posts in a row !

IMO it's parties like UKIP which are far less right sided than their

If it wasn't for the steady stream of unions begging censure for saying racist sir, trump costing up to Trump or nutall et al wanting to privatise the NHS (there's a reason that carswell defected to ukip rather than the greens 😉 ) you might a have a point, unless you are suggesting that the ukip worshiping mail, express, dun telegraph etc are actually subversive left wing propaganda

TMH it's a bluff

A poor one from the start. Hunger pains? 😀