on the basis of the choices Scotland has already made in favour of a more equitable society than the rest of Britain I feel the Scots have more humanist values than the rest of the union.
And even the small gestures the devolved government have made contributed to the Scottish overall remain vote.
Sadly in rUK 30+ years of right wing government's have failed to address the post industrial decline in many regions, hence the self serving demagogues and unscrupulous media begging able to scapegoat immigrants and the EU, for Westminster's failings.
The irony is that those regions will suffer most from Brexit
Control over energy policycontrol over economic policy
Ability to set tax rates
Ability to set its own budget
Remaining in the EU
A voice albeit small in international affairs
ability to reform the benefits system in line with our values
Control over defense including getting rid of the nukes
Ability to make and join international treaties
Ability to control its own resources
You know - all those things that an independent country can do
The emotional "We just don't like England" argument shouldn't be underestimated when standing in the polling station. It might be wrong, but it's there.
small % tho. The difference between civic and ethnic nationalism
As an Englishman with an english name and accent I am sensitive to this. There is no anti english sentiment from the higher echelons of the SNP. sure there is amongst a few of its supporters. same as there are racists in the tory party. anti english in the SNP is far less than racism in the tory party
"it isn't important where you come from, what matters is where we are going together as a nation" Bashir Ahmad
Scotland has control over those things, proportionally. What it doesn't have is control exclusively by Scottish people over what happens in Scotland. Just like eveywhere else in the UK.
The only reason your argument makes sense if you are drawing a distinction between Scottish and English. Therefore it's nationalism. Now take this debate back over to the Scottish indy thread please.
Educator asked a question - I answered it.
So the scottish parliament want to implement a sensible integrated energy policy. Its not westminster policy to do so. Therefore scotland can't have a sensible integrated energy policy
tjagain - MemberBurnham is a man of no principles and no morals who would say anything if he thought it would get him elected. He has never uttered an original thought in his life. Symbolic of all that is wrong with the labour party.
Or alternatively .... a man who sees the necessity of dispensing with the compulsory, high-handed, dismissive, PC Islington Bollocks, a la Corbyn, to recognise, and engage with the genuine (non-racist) concerns of the Labour parties core vote, and their legitimate concerns on present levels of immigration, maybe?
Just a thought
He is off to the Middle East today. Should be fun after last week end comments.
I'm looking forwards to it. He may end up buried up to his neck in the desert.
Binners - not at all. Sorry - to me Burnham is symbolic of all that is wrong with the modern labour party. He and his ilk are why I stopped voting labour. We ( all sensible people) know that immigration is good for the country and labour should be fighting against the racists outpourings of the right wing press and leading public opinion. NOt kowtowing to the daily wail and following their agenda.
PC Islington Bollocks
Wait, did you just use 'political correctness' as a derogatory term?!
Shame on you binners!
And your[s] arrogant[/s] worthy, dismissive, high-handed, Metropolitan liberal, I-know-what's-best-for-you, virtue-signalling attitude, and its total refusal to adress peoples perfectly legitimate concerns on immigraion, prefering instead to loftily dismiss them all as 'racist', is exactly why labour will be decimated in its former 'heartlands' at the next election
What are the "legitimate concerns"
Wait, did you just use 'political correctness' as a derogatory term?!Shame on you binners!
[img] https://media.tenor.co/images/97586e24178b56247a3b26504102268b/raw [/img]
tjagain - MemberWhat are the "legitimate concerns"
You know exactly what they are. Stop being so contrary
No I really don't Binners. I really do not understand what legitimate concerns people have over immigration. Everything I have seen quoted is either racist or from believing falshoods from the right wing press
@igm agreed, top end of SNP are fabulous political operators.
@gordimor to answer but agreed this should be in the Indy thread, admitedly only one. Dr Eilidh Whiteford MP Banff and Buchan, 54% Leave
Boris. Funny many here acuse Saudi Arabia of funding terrorism but when Boris says it ? French are trying to pass a law stopping foreign money (Saudi) paying for Mosque development.
Sleaford voted 70% Leave yesterday. Nice.
[quote=jambalaya ]Banff and Buchan, 54% Leave
> http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/12/08/revealed-89-brexit-rebel-mps-whether-constituents-voted-leave/
He [b]calculated[/b] the figures using census data, taking into account factors such as age and university education, [b]and believes they are accurate to within one per cent.[/b]
Hardly constitutes evidence 🙄
Boris is right in saying it BUT it is not really what the PM was saying a few days ago.
I really do not understand what legitimate concerns people have over immigration.
Ok well perhaps if you'll listen carefully with an open mind I can help.
People SEE lots of people with foreign accents appearing in their towns. They therefore can see that there are lots of immigrants. Then, they themselves struggle to find a job, or have to wait ages in A&E, or see that some other service is struggling to cope.
Now - people often feel uncomfortable hearing people talking to each other in foreign languages, or even hearing accents. This is a bit of basic human nature at work. So because people are feeling disadvantaged, they sometimes link the negative emotions associated with their situation with the negative emotions that sometimes appear when confronted with 'other' people i.e. immigrants. So you get immigration associated with lack of jobs, prospects and good public services in people's minds.
Then the newspapers that people buy play on this and reinforce the beliefs, and bingo - you have an immigration 'problem'.
Now - government should not have let this happen. If they had managed things a bit instead of letting shit happen, and crucially if they had not let public services and jobs go down the shitter, we would not have this problem. But the Tories can see that allowing immigrants to be blamed lets them off the hook in the short term. In the long term, who the **** knows where we'll be, but politicans never care about that.
Now sure - these concerns may not be justified in technical terms - but since when does that matter? People vote how they feel. And no-one's bothered to try and dissuade them of their concerns.
Molgrips - those are concerns yes - but are they legitimate or are they actually false? If the concerns are based on false perceptions then surely those concerns should be challenged not pandered to?
The emotional "We just don't like England" argument shouldn't be underestimated when standing in the polling station. It might be wrong, but it's there.
As TJ said, the genuine "don't like" mob will be very small and absolute halfwits.
Rather than "we just don't like england" my position is no "we're just different from england"
I was a vocal No voter in the Indyref. Not because of any great love for Westminster but because the case was not strong enough. I also pushed the point a lot that the north of England is more closely aligned to Scotland.
However in the wake of the EU ref I'm a vocal indy supporter. One key reason is I can now see a clear, undeniable difference in the Scottish and English mindset, mentality, ethos.
I was staggered and dissapointed at the way the north of England voted. It shattered any illusions I had about any political, cultural and sociological affiliations between Scotland and England. The divide is clear for me and I think it's time we go our own way.
Yes the fiscal case is uncertain however I feel we face another financial Armageddon if the UK does leave the EU, so Scotland may as well do it now because either way were ****ed though I don't think it will be as bad under independence.
I'm embarrassed and ashamed at the prospect of my European work colleagues thinking I share the racist and xenophobic mindset that seems to becoming mainstream and acceptable in England. Scotland is not without its own issues but TJ made a great post yester day explaining Scotland is a very tolerant, understanding, welcoming and liberal country. At the moment i feel very out of sync with the rest of the UK and I don't want the rights and freedoms I currently enjoy as a member of the EU taken away because another nation holds a different viewpoint to mine.
Molgrips - those are concerns yes - but are they legitimate or are they actually false? If the concerns are based on false perceptions then surely those concerns should be challenged not pandered to?
The labour party is doing neither. It shares your lofty disdain for the racist thicko's who used to vote for it
Not sure what 'it' refers to in that sentence. Labour party is hardly united as a single entity is it? 🙂
A lot of politicians have disdain for the thickos not just Labour 🙂
Molgrips - those are concerns yes - but are they legitimate or are they actually false?
The *concern* is legitimate. The problem is not. In other words, people are right to be concerned, but they need to be convinced of the benefits and that things need to be handled better.
If things aren't explained properly people will get the wrong end of the stick - this is not a condemnation of people's intelligence, it's simply how all people react. Good communication is key to any working relationship.
Rather than "we just don't like england" my position is no "we're just different from england"
Which is a genuinely intriguing viewpoint. What happens between Carlisle and Gretna or Berwick-U-T and Edinburgh - do people change that much. More than say between Selkirk and Nairn or Moffat and Oban?
Scotland and England (and RoUK) seem to share tremendous similarities and are interdependent in terms of trade and economic cycles - with Scotland being less diversified and more exposed to P of Oil etc. But that apart, the reason why the Union works so well is precisely because of the close synchronicity between us coupled with free movement of people which allows everyone to benefit from having a common currency and the diversification of risk etc and increasing levels of devolved power and autonomy.
So in the face of this, the preference of the vocal minority is to cut those ties in favour of monetary, fiscal and political subservience to Frankfurt, with people who are far more culturally different and with whom Scotland trades much less and with economies that are far less (if at all) synchronised. So as the S periphery have found out to their cost, policy is determined by German needs not theirs. And this is a better outcome??? Yes, because at least its not English!!
What is the gaelic for "turkey" and "christmas"?
The close results of the referendum should have been a great opportunity for the opposition parties but they missed it by a mile.
The lib dem are trying hard to grab it but they are starting so far behind it is hardly going to make an impact.
Binnrs - The labour party is pandering to it tho - hence Burnhams speech and thats the problem. the labour party should be spending its time countering the false premises that give rise to the anti immigration feeling.
On the NHS for example. 2 easy points to make
1) Without immigrants to staff the service it would collapse
2) as immigrants pay more tax and use less services than the average UK citizen then because of this economic activity from immigrants there is actually a greater tax take per capita - so immigration leads to more money for the NHS
So immigration both leads to more and better trained NHS staff and ( if the government want) more money for the NHS
Poor Old Tiny Tim, gets a sniff and then his own side, ok some (1/3) of them, turn against him
Liberal Democrat leader Tim Farron is facing his own revolt over Brexit, after MPs criticised his fight against the Article 50 exit notice. Rebels say they cannot face their voters if they have given the impression they are failing to “accept the result of the referendum”.
tick
One said the Lib Dems should rise above “meaningless gesture politics and party political games” he said were played by Labour and the Tories in the Commons this week and be fully focussed on fighting for the best possible Brexit deal.
Good idea, but q hard in practice
Three of Mr Farron's MPs – a third of his shrunken Commons party 😳 – failed to obey his instruction to vote against Theresa May’s rapid timetable for withdrawal on Wednesday, with the rebellion threatening to undermine his claim that “only the Liberal Democrats are providing a real opposition to the Conservative Brexit government”.
Molgrips - I guess we are back to semantics but IMO if a concern is based on false premise then it may be "real" but it is not "legitimate"
fHowever in the wake of the EU ref I'm a vocal indy supporter. One key reason is I can now see a clear, undeniable difference in the Scottish and English mindset, mentality, ethos.
I am not sure that this is true.
I think that the ref showed that England is more divided than Scotland. I think England has a greater diversity economically from mega money London though to the urban areas up north that have been redeveloped to urban areas up north that area dead, through to areas of the south west that are all retirement villages. Don't get me wrong I know Scotland has diversity but it's not as much over so many areas.
Basically don't fall into the trap of prejudging the English to be prejudice. The result was very divided.
The *concern* is legitimate.
It isn't, its false
In other words, people are right to be concerned,
No they are not.
but they need to be convinced of the benefits and that things need to be handled better.
always someone else's fault?? If they prefer to believe lies that is their fault. That is why some classify them as "stupid" an accusation whilst harsh is hard to falsify.
The close results of the referendum should have been a great opportunity for the opposition parties but they missed it by a mile.
The lib dem are trying hard to grab it but they are starting so far behind it is hardly going to make an impact.
Chris look at the map I posted, the Labour heartlands of the Midlands and North voted strongly Leave. The only Labour area strongly Remain was central London.
What happens between Carlisle and Gretna or Berwick-U-T and Edinburgh - do people change that much.
What happens?
Almost 60% voting to leave the EU vs more than 60% voting to stay in. The map posted a couple of pages back tells a strong story.
All 32 regions in Scotland voted for remain. All of them. In Edinburgh it was 74% remain.
There's a clear division now between Scotland and England. At least it's clear to me.
It isn't, its false
From a Surrey/Islington viewpoint eh ?
Many Labour MPs (Burnham included) are starting to get it. McDonnell was quite right to speak of the great opportunities we have outside the EU.
Bob Edinburgh voted Remain for the same reasons London did, financial services.
EDIT: personally I think the Scots are similar to North of England and Wales in terms of outlook. IMO the vote in Scotland was hugely tactical around those who wanted an Indy Ref 2 swinging the result heavily to Remain.
To me, being concerned is thinking there might be a problem. That's not the same a thinking there IS one.
I didn't say Labour should oppose article 50, but at the bare minimum they should be vocal on what Brexit means for those people who voted Leave.
At present they are doing nothing.
The lib dem have chosen to oppose Brexit, and it gained them one seat.
On a different note, major banks have asked the Treasury to extend the negotiations period by 3 years.
Jamba -- I live in Edinburgh and I follow scottish politics closely. financial services is a very small part of the reasons why Edinburgh voted so strongly to remain
Edinburgh is a cosmopolitan and diverse city. We consider ourselves as living in one of the great European capitals. We cherish our links to mainland europe.
The main reason why Edinburgh voted remain is that the xenophobia that drives anti europe feeling is not a significant factor in Edinburgh. the seconday reason is that we want to remain in the EU for all the benefits it brings
Its absolutly nothing to do with the independence question. 30% of SNP voters over the country voted out. More folk in Edinburgh voted remain than voted for independence
There's a clear division now between Scotland and England. At least it's clear to me.
As I said, intriguing view.
The voting patterns are illuminating aren't they?
All 32 regions in Scotland voted for remain. All of them. In Edinburgh it was 74% remain. There's a clear division now between Scotland and England. At least it's clear to me.
Aye and all but 4 regions voted to remain part of the UK. 28 of them. In 10 of them by >60% versus the most anti-region Dundee at 57% 😉 which had lower than average turnout as did two of the others (one marginally admittedly!)
The lib dem have chosen to oppose Brexit, and it gained them one seat.
I don't think that's necessarily the right conclusion from Richmond, Zak Goldsmith lost it by being nob, plain and simple.
From a Surrey/Islington viewpoint eh ?
From an educated/non-xenophobic viewpoint
How do you block posters?
zippykona
http://singletrackworld.com/forum/topic/stw-killfile-plugin/page/2
However I have edited it so I can't be blocked 😉
Blah, blah, blah... we're better than you because we're soooooooooooooo cosmopolitan..... blah, blah, blah....... concern yourselves not peasants, and leave everything to us, for we shall deliver our multicultural wonderland. And you will thank us. Be grateful you simple uneducated urchins!
Binners.. do you not want multiculturalism?
Binners - just a bit different in political outlook 🙂
Scotland voted overwhelmingly in
Right wing parties (excluding labour) get under 20% of the vote here
