Well, more redundancies here. I expect we're ahead of the curve for this so will be interesting to see what happens on a wider scale next year and whether it's more down to is being heavily reliant on private sector development.
There have been widespread calls for the government to guarantee the status of EU nationals living in the UK, but [b]ministers have said the issue should form part of the Brexit negotiations[/b] and would require reciprocal guarantees over Britons living abroad.
I couldn't help but chuckle as I read that Tusk letter.
Obviously [b]those on the right [/b]have no interest in this and really only want to start another war and with it the business opportunities.I hope that no brexister is ever in the position of explaining to their grandchildren that they have to die because i didn't want to work for a better future, i thought it best to go back to tribalism and war.
How odd then that not only is The EU not a left/right issue (Look at how much time Labour spent wanting us to leave) but the greatest opposition to NATO (an organisation that has actually made a real difference to the peace and security of Europe since WW2) Has been from the Left.
No one has freedom of movement apart from the EU.
You say this as if its a good* thing. 😯
*for everyone else
It's the odd one out.
A truly remarkable and unique achievement that should be cherished and protected not destroyed in the name of isolationism, protectionism and xenophobia
I couldn't help but chuckle as I read that Tusk letter.
lots of fun drafting that!! 😀
"Dear stupid people and authors of pompous letters,
Thank you....."
what single market does not have freedom of movement of people?No one has freedom of movement apart from the EU. It's the odd one out.
Is there another one of them - genuine question btw
Thinking about forming the NNP the Northumbria National Party (Tweed to Humber Inclusive) not sure yhe Yorkshire separatists or the Cumbria popular front will buy into the idea...
Think you'll find the Cumbria Popular Front has been eclipsed by SOD (Son's of Dunmail) now......
Go back to why the EU exists,
Because IIRC Tariffs were ~40pc and Tariff free trade seemed to be preferable to collecting and paying 40pc tariffs.
Now the whole world has largely woken up to the futility of Tariffs we're down to IIRC an average of 2.5pc and the need for trade unions is far, far less when the tax is lost in the noise of Currency fluctuations.
It's just pointless Edukator and very petty. Everyone is well aware that the EU is going to allow all those Brits living and working in Europe to stay. It would be economic carnage for them if they did not. Can you just imagine the negative impact of tourism to Spain, France and Itaiy if they asked Brits to leave ? I guaranty I would do all I could to boycott products and places.
The reason the Polish PM came is the UK is vital for them, 800,000 (officially and imo many more) Poles and living amd working in the UK. The economic benefit to Poland is massive, aside from money sent home including investing in business ventures the Poles are well aware a large portion will return there as wealthy pensioners. The Hungarian Ambassador said the UK is the 5th largest foreign investor in that country.
I couldn't help but chuckle as I read that Tusk letter.
lots of fun drafting that!!
"Dear stupid people and authors of pompous letters,
Thank you....."
It's almost as if the Brexiters are trying to bluff the EU into thinking we are absolutely clueless about the whole thing..
The alternative is almost too scary to consider 😯
800,000 (officially and imo many more) Poles and living amd working in the UK. The economic benefit to Poland is massive
Plus the people remote working on projects for British Companies from Poland. My UK based company has more contractors working for us in Poland than we have contractors working for us in the UK by a factor of two. (We also employ plenty of Indian Contractors working in India which works fine, as well.)
We've done this before.
Lots of countries are made up of individual states, with greater or less autonomy. The EU is just somewhere on a scale that's all.
It's almost as if the Brexiters are trying to bluff the EU into thinking we are absolutely clueless about the whole thing..
Well we are clueless about this aren't we?
What deal we get is dependent on what we negotiate with the EU and the EU aren't going to negotiate until we commit to leaving or perhaps after we've left.
So it's a bit chicken and egg and I'm not sure it could be otherwise.
Given the EU have every reason to refuse to negotiate in the hope the UK bottles out of leaping into the unknown it seems to me if we want to leave the only way is the way David Owen and Nigel Lawson advocate.
Once we're out we can say "We're net winners out of tarrifs, you're net losers. If you like we're prepared to go Tarrif free with the EU." Hard to see why they'd say no once we've left, hard to see why they'd say yes or even discuss it before we commit to leave.
All of which leads me to conclude we aint leaving.
It work's both ways, I have family retired in Spain, and the ex pat community is big, they get on very well with the locals by and large, and whist they use the spanish health system (which they all think very highly of) they are all retired or running small/part time businesses and generally fill their time spending money in the local economy, creating the odd job, and employing Spanish services for property, maintenance, local garages, you name it.
Poles in the UK, by and large do a lot of that too and they are of taxable income earning age...and less likely to use the NHS... think it's pretty short sighted to say poland relies on money from thier ex pats more than we rely on their Labour and subsequent tax they pay on their wages, the food and services they buy, which is taxed, etc.
Hard to see why they'd say no once we've left
The EU has clear founding principles and have clear rules to follow , we have to obey them all or we cannot be in the club.
there is no way they will let a country leave, not contribute, nor harmonise and pick and choose the rules they follow and then keep all trade. it like arguing that the gym will let you still use the equipment once you revoke your membership dont pay the fees wont follow the rules etc
Anyone who thinks we can get this is heavily faith based and ignoring the multiple pronouncements that say the cake and eat it argument is never going to happen. It wont even be seriously discussed.
I rather suspect they will say that is 4% of our trade and 45% of yours you are gambling with.... Lets see who blinks first eh"We're net winners out of tarrifs, you're net losers
The UK said all existing EU citizens would be allowed to stay if the EU agreed also.
When and where did the relevant UK minister or PM say this?
there is no way they will let a country leave, not contribute, nor harmonise and pick and choose the rules they follow and then keep all trade. it like arguing that the gym will let you still use the equipment once you revoke your membership dont pay the fees wont follow the rules etc
But if you look like Ronaldo they are going to let you use the gym for free, aren't they?
Don't forget England thinks it's special, of course the EU wants it in its club.
Reminds me of a friend I once had, let's call him Nigel.
A group of friends had organised a night out, and the mini bus fee worked out at £5 each when split. We invited Nigel too, and told him with an extra person, all the fairs would be a bit lower with his contribution, at £4 each.
Nigel was not happy about this, he argued that we were going there anyway so he didn't need to pay, and his presence wouldn't cost us more than our previously agreed £5 each. He wouldn't budge and neither would we.
Nigel threw a tantrum and missed a really good night out. We don't really speak to him any more because we all think he's a bit of a knob.
The EU has clear founding principles and have clear rules to follow , we have to obey them all or we cannot be in the club.
Romania, Liechtenstein and at least one country (IIRC) other have had EAA membership without free movement IIRC. (I'm not saying it's desirable to the UK or to the EU to give up the benefits of free movement, I'm merely saying this founding principle has been waived multiple times.)
there is no way they will let a country leave, not contribute, nor harmonise and pick and choose the rules they follow and then keep all trade.
Wrong. Every nation in the world can trade with EU nations. They can't even legally impose penal tariffs on on, just the same the rest of the world pay.
"We're net winners out of tarrifs, you're net losers
I rather suspect they will say that is 4% of our trade and 45% of yours you are gambling with.... Lets see who blinks first eh
Fine we'll just collect the tariffs, what't the problem with that? We'll be better off on average, and can even tweak tariffs to our own advantage if we so wish (or not if we don't).
If I were you I'd be far, far more worried about the Financial services industry than trade in goods.
But if you look like Ronaldo they are going to let you use the gym for free, aren't they?
I'm not sure the gym analogy works at all.
If the EU decide they want to (net) pay us tariffs they're punishing us by giving us wads of cash. That's the kind of punishment most people would be happy with.
I'd have thought (if we leave) our punishment beating will be dished out in other ways, not through goods tariffs.
we want free trade, which was what you mentioned and what i replied toEvery nation in the world can trade with EU nations.
THey wont accept thatIf you like we're prepared to go Tarrif free with the EU."
then why would we offer free trade?We'll be better off on average
Furthermore as we all know everyone is negatively affected by Brexit the best we can ever be is less negatively affected than they are and we wont even achieve that.
Given we are gambling with 45% of our trade and 4%pf theirs, its pretty easy, delusion and wishful thinking aside ,to anyone who can count, who bears the greatest burden.
800,000 (officially and imo many more) Poles and living amd working in the UK.
No seeing as everyone who enters and leaves the UK has their passport checked, everyone working should have a ni number and be recorded why do [b]you[/b] think the figures are wrong? Why would Polish people sneak into a country that they have free access too?
IMO you are once again trying to make false claims to try and keep immigration high on the agenda when in reality it's not as much of a real issue as it is perceived.
it doesI'm not sure the gym analogy works at all.
this is economically illiterate and daft.If the EU decide they want to (net) pay us tariffs they're punishing us by giving us wads of cash. That's the kind of punishment most people would be happy with.
1. Tariffs will impact on trade and make it more expensive. They will be able to look at 27 other countries for tariff free goods/services and we will be able to turn to no one. Our financial centre cannot be used for EU operations and it will leave as one example.
2. Were this to be true then we should just do this as they cannot stop us and we will be massive winners. Its so post truth even leave did not argue for it.
We are not the winners in a trade war and to simply focus on the deficit, as if this somehow makes it all a win for us, is just wrong and highlights only your lack of grasp of the subject matter.
then why would we offer free trade?
Beats me. You said the EU won't accept it. I assumed that meant you think we should offer it.
If you're asking me to guess why I think we might end up offering Tariff free goods trade I'd assume it would be in exchange for something we need. (Maybe something Financial Services related???).
Tariffs will impact on trade and make it more expensive.
Yes, it makes EU *exports* more expensive which is good for UK manufacturing.
Were this to be true then we should just do this as they cannot stop us and we will be massive winners.
*If* goods trade was the only trade we were involved in then yes, that's true, we'd be massive winners in all kinds of ways.
I find it slightly worrying that you've only started to think about this months after the vote.
No seeing as everyone who enters and leaves the UK has their passport checked, everyone working should have a ni number and be recorded why do you think the figures are wrong?
"More or Less" on R4 covered this. The numbers *are* wrong - they're based on surveys on the Ferries! No idea if they're too high or too low, but they're poor estimates.
Why they can't use more accurate measures I'm not sure, as you say it wouldn't be rocket science.
Yes, it makes EU *exports* more expensive which is good for UK manufacturing
Actually any exports from places the eu already has a deal with. The UK doesn't make much olive oil or wine, plenty of other things. It also makes UK exports more expensive and less competitive
I'm not sure the gym analogy works at all.
I think it works quite well, the problem is that the simplification makes the having cake and eating it argunment a little more difficult to support.
It also makes UK exports more expensive and less competitive
As net beneficiaries we could offset that with subsidies if we wished.
I don't see goods trade as the problem here. It only gets so much media/political attention is because it's superficially easy to understand.
The UK doesn't make much olive oil or wine, plenty of other things
Best not to shout too loud about that - having a ~12pc duty on wine imports to protect the wine industry when we don't have a wine industry looks a bit silly.
The reason the Polish PM came is the UK is vital for them, 800,000 Poles and living amd working in the UK. The economic benefit to Poland is massive
Polish PM is looking out for the rights of her citizens, as is her remit,
Economic benefit to the UK is bigger, which is why May was so keen to meet.
We get hundreds of thousands of well educated and motivated workers, without paying the cost to raise or educate them. Which would be more than £100Bn according to figures taken from the Telegraph.
Polish PM is looking out for the rights of her citizens, as is her remit,
Economic benefit to the UK is bigger, which is why May was so keen to meet.We get hundreds of thousands of well educated and motivated workers, without paying the cost to raise or educate them. Which would be more than £100Bn according to figures taken from the Telegraph.
That's my take on it. Win-Win. Hard to see why Poland would want to rock that boat.
Hard to see why Poland would want to rock that boat.
It's even harder to see why the UK would, evidenced by the fact this thread on a bike forum is about to hit 500 pages long.
and again you brought this upI assumed that meant you think we should offer it.
I have quoted it three times to you now
I commented on what you said Why do you keep saying I brought it up?If you like we're prepared to go Tarrif free with the EU."
You are not the sharpest I am out
mikewsmith - MemberWhy would Polish people sneak into a country that they have free access too?
Because it is in their sneaky polish nature I assume.
(maybe I shouldn't be sarcastic, I'm darkly fascinated to find out what the actual answer will be, if by some miracle he does answer. After all, it's not just a few, it's [i]many millions[/i] he'll be trying to find.)
the PM and her Ministers have NOT said that eu citizens would be allowed to stay after Brexit .
Fox said we , EU citizens , were just a bargaining chip in the negociations .
Jambalaya and Ninfan , you both fits really well in the leave campaign . Head in the sand and full of lies .
@cchris see what May said, she was very clear. All EU citizens can stay if EU agrees the same. EU could have easily said the same or even something like "barring unforseen circunstances we expect all UK citizens in Europe currently will have their rights protected"
@mike (and Northwind) the Polish Ambassador said there where 5,000 Brits registered in Poland but the real figure was probably 20,000. So if your logic where true the Poles could just confirm all 20,000 right ? Ditto French in UK, there are many more than are registered. There is a quite a lot of "smoke and mirrors" in the UK stats (remember ONS intervention ?) and how they count people, ie something like have they been here 12 months if not we won't count them. People that come and work for 3 or 6 months don't get counted (they are not in the 800,000). Then add on all the cash in hand casual workers.
@cchris see what May said, she was very clear. All EU citizens can stay if EU agrees the same. EU could have easily said the same or even something like "barring unforseen circunstances we expect all UK citizens in Europe currently will have their rights protected"
May calling the shots fills me with confidence.
@mike (and Northwind) the Polish Ambassador said there where 5,000 Brits registered in Poland but the real figure was probably 20,000. So if your logic where true the Poles could just confirm all 20,000 right ? Ditto French in UK, there are many more than are registered. There is a quite a lot of "smoke and mirrors" in the UK stats (remember ONS intervention ?) and how they count people, ie something like have they been here 12 months if not we won't count them. People that come and work for 3 or 6 months don't get counted (they are not in the 800,000). Then add on all the cash in hand casual workers.
Are you really trying to argue with the world famous Jambafacts?
Nasty European Right Wingers ? The Center / Left Government of Holland has just followed through on their 2012 commitment to introduce a burka ban (in public places the 2012 commitment was further ranging but was turned down by the courts). They join France, Belgium and Switzerland in such a ban.
Nasty European Right Wingers ? The Center / Left Government of Holland has just followed through on their 2012 commitment to introduce a burka ban (in public places the 2012 commitment was further ranging but was turned down by the courts). They join France, Belgium and Switzerland in such a ban.
Much more of this & you'll be clamouring to bin A50 & sign up to this "EU"!
😆
I can imagine the day when the guardian going into a total melt down when EU is being dissolved or in the process of being dissolved. 😆
The science drain appears to have started.
UK nuclear fusion lab faces uncertain future - http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-37777729
I've no issue with a burka ban.
Eu countries want the UK to trigger Article 50 to stop uncertainty. But UK courts have decided to delay the process, not the EU.
Jamba the lower house has passed the Burka idea, it is not a law yet it has to go to the Senate where it may not get through once again you are playing fast and loose with the facts, not your usual out right lie but not fact at all.
[i]@cchris see what May said, she was very clear. All EU citizens can stay if EU agrees the same. EU could have easily said the same or even something like "barring unforseen circunstances we expect all UK citizens in Europe currently will have their rights protected"[/I]
If I was on the EU Team the last thing I'd be doing is agreeing to something outside of the actual negotiation. And the PM can chat to all the leaders she likes, but they've all to agree (between themselves) before anything can be agreed.
UK courts have decided to delay the process, not the EU.
The UK court case is a *little* more far reaching then just article 50, the HUGE point a lot of brexiters are simply ignoring is that it will set a precident that a government can remove the rights of it's citizens at a whim, essentially if the government win the case, it will legitimise dictatorship in the UK. it's probably het most significant court case we ill see in our lifetimes... not a big deal at all.
