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Seems like leaving the EU doesn't actually make us leave the EEA anyway....
the Government is supposed to address these points with facts ?
They did
Given they have not done the cynic in me says the information wasn't helpful to Remain.
it was, Brexshiteers chose to ignore it...."we have had enough of experts, we prefer the sewer"
As someone campaigning for Leave why not make the statement and wait to be challenged ?
As this thread showed, the level of debate (sic) took place well below this level. Everytime Brexshiteers were challenged on the 5 central lies and then issues such as financial liability, impact of immigration etc, they ran away or ignored/rejected the facts.
And this is symptomatic of the wider debate. As ninfan's chart showed, the level was down in the gutter of we don't like foreigners and mainly driven by those for whom immigration was not/is not an issue - xenophobia and racism exposed at its crudest levels.
Its bad enough when Brexshiteers lie to others, but when they end up having to lie to themselves then we have reached a true low point.
Time for a ride - mini-rant over, need to cool down!
Anyway arguing about this is pointless, the vote is done and dusted.
Agreed it's in the past and can now be ignored so we can get back to the proper business of representative democracy instead of silly opinion polls. 😉
That note reads like someone who can't believe the ridiculous opinions they are hearing but feels the need to write them down to aid recollection. Hence the "have cake and eat it" comment for example. I think I've been in that meeting once or twice.
I think it refers to the scones and jam trade.
And tea! Don't forget the tea!
I've just decided that in the tradition of politicians adopting pop songs, the Maybot should now just come out to "Pump up the Jam(s)" by Technotronic.
At least it will give us something to look forward to instead of more leaden soundbites and 'policy' climbdowns.
Seems like leaving the EU doesn't actually make us leave the EEA anyway....
You missed out "some lawyers argue"...
Was that notebook left open on purpose?
The cabinet might not be as United as they it is.
anyone who thinks trump = change should take a look of the backgrounds of the people appointed to run things
[quote=dazh ]
I'm genuinely quite shocked at your enthusiasm for what is at best a resurgence of far right sentiment across the western world,
He's massively far right!
He's massively far right!
He's definitely on the rabid side of the the right but not necessarily 'far right'. There's a big difference I think. The difference is that your classic uber-right tories are usually on the libertarian side of things. What differentiates the far right is a rabid authoritarian streak fuelled by hatred of minorities.
Although to be fair he does have the far right habit of shamelessly spouting lies as fact so maybe you have a point 🙂
[b]EUROPEAN Union officials are astonished that Britain’s Brexit plan goes all the way to the bottom of an A4 page.[/b]A photograph taken of Brexit notes has shocked EU negotiators by displaying full sentences and appearing to have a rudimentary grasp of the subject.
EU official Hans-Jurgen Wecker admitted: “This has changed our entire approach. We were planning to just use interns for the negotiations, but now we are at least sending a junior to supervise.
“A full page without, as far as we can see, any doodles of abstract patterns in the margins is a level of seriousness beyond anything we have seen thus far from Britain, and three to four levels beyond your foreign secretary.
“There are even rumours that the notes continue onto a second page and contain some mathematical workings-out. Who knew the people behind ‘Brexit means Brexit’ were capable of this?”
Wecker added: “‘Have your cake and eat it’, we know. This is an English-language idiom which we believe translates to asking for everything but ending with nothing at all.”
anyone who thinks trump = change should take a look of the backgrounds of the people appointed to run things
So Obama and Trump are interchangeable? Interesting... 😯
had enough of experts
Why not quote it properly THM?
[i]People have had enough of experts from organisations with acronyms saying that they know what is best and getting it consistently wrong [/i]
Why not quote it properly THM?People have had enough of experts from organisations with acronyms saying that they know what is best and getting it consistently wrong
coz its making the same point regardless ? 😉
Or the more recent...
"Experts, soothsayers, astrologers are all in much the same category."
Mmmmm-hmmmmm...
funnily enough he was quoting the OECD today saying that they are revising up growth for the UK
seems like post truthism is a fickle beast
Is it me, or did the kippers elect the love child of Adrian Edmondson and Al Murray who has a name suspiciously like Nutty?
Was that notebook left open on purpose?
Is a vaild question. As culprit was an aide of Frank Field it would be good to do some digging around him and her.
@edukator re Spain and Portugal me too, they are trying to follow the rules. I have two friends who have recently retired to Lisbon, both around 50 and just decided more time in London/finance was just not worth it having recently been made redunant. There is a big tax break they are offereing too (no income tax for 10 years if yoir retire there, my wife tells me it's much cheaper too even than rural France)
Whole "far right" label is in many cases an attempt to smear opposition parties. The fact is if mainstream parties don't offer what voters want they leave the door very much open. The more eurosceptics we have in Europe the more leverage we will have in the UK.
@boarding I normally vote and donate to Lib Dem (Labour in '97), Tories offered an EU referendum so that swung it for me in 2015, no brainer. As of today the Tories are the only remotely credible party to vote for, this opinion poll in the Guardian reflects reality on the ground imho
Tories 44
Labour 28
UKIP 12
Lib Dem 7
Geeens 4
Yeah according to that poll the 'kippers are going back to voting Tory now after the UKIP post ref meltdown.
Sadly looks like as our population ages we are swirling round the loo toward a reactionary, inward looking, xenophobic, right wing pootopia. 🙁
Sadly looks like as our population ages we are swirling round the loo toward a reactionary, inward looking, xenophobic, right wing pootopia
The only hope is for the younger (more open minded and less selfish) generation to take over when all the old right wing bigots die out. About 20 years time it should start looking a bit better I would hope.
The only hope is for the younger (more open minded and less selfish) generation to take over when all the old right wing bigots die out. About 20 years time it should start looking a bit better I would hope.
Unless drifting to the right is a sign of ageing, along with elastic waisted beige pants (urine smell optional) , deafness, a belief that things were better when we where young and parking badly. 😯
I think the theory about a drift to the right is that you accumulate wealth as you get older and want to keep it, so vote for more conservative policies etc.
I'm not sure the youth of today will be accumulating much wealth...
The only hope is for the younger (more open minded and less selfish) generation to take over when all the old right wing bigots die out. About 20 years time it should start looking a bit better I would hope.
This lot?
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You realise that when that lot were getting high, the other 98% of the population were feeling pretty pleased with themselves for getting jobs for life and saving for their first houses...
Whole "far right" label is in many cases an attempt to smear opposition parties.
Not really, it is more of an observation of their proposed policies.
The fact is if mainstream parties don't offer what voters want they leave the door very much open. The more eurosceptics we have in Europe the more leverage we will have in the UK.
Or what seems to be the case is that people don't like what they are experiencing, a populist party from the hard right (or left) says it is due to XYZ (usually exaggerating, simplifying or lying) rather than the actual ABC (under investment, type of work doesn't exist anymore, etc), this is supported by partisan media, mainstream parties find that facts can't fight bullshit and are attacked in the press (unpatriotic, doing down, etc) for trying to make their point and voila, instant brexishambles/trumpageddon where the delivered "solution" fails to address any of the real underlying problems and creates many more in the process.
It's not so much as leaving the door open as finding a door put in where there is no need for one and then having someone kick it in.
Tories offered an EU referendum so that swung it for me in 2015, no brainer.
I do agree with you on this though. No brain involved whatsoever 😉
In a bizare twist of brexishambles a bunch of tory MPs wrote a letter to the EC complaining about them not starting negoriations soon enough
Tusk had an easy time pointing out that they knew not of which they spoke
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they knew not of which they spoke
I know not exactly who wrote to Tusk, but their ailment does seem to be common amongst Brexies. Were they Brexies?
These people are embarrassing - to think that some are representing us. Its mind bogglingly awful.
As culprit was an aide of Frank Field
Almost. Another senior moment (though I admit I did the same double take).
Mark Field
written by Michael Tomlinson and Steve Baker, (Tory MPs) and signed by 80 others including Gove & IDS 🙄
Is that the bloke off the Royle Family?
Once again like dragons last comment we are far too high up the intellectual tree discussing this, nothing Mrs May or the three muppets have alluded to (with the notable exception of immigration which is fabricated bollocks) even remotely offers an opportunity for the working poor of any post industrial town - this is the embedded time bomb and I am sure UKIP are going to build a campaign/platform around this "look what those heartless Tory gits haven't done for you" bear in mind they have watched trump March to power on the back of "coal mines/factorys for all" which any one with a couple of brain cells understands you can have provided you are willing to pay £1000 for a bog standard TV (crap example but you get the drift)
This is all about local economics going forward, I have a depressing track record on this as I called the Tory Majority, Brexit and Trump correctly- do you really think pollsters are going around the clubs and pubs of the North of England asking pissed working class poor people which way they will vote? Mr Nuttal has greater appeal in these areas than Farage - I going to say that UKIP will take a significant number of seats at the next GE and the longer Mrs May postpones the GE the more they will take - anyone remember Scotland Labour MPs back in the 90s -all gone. UKIP can become UK SNP to a certain extent
UKIP can become UK SNP to a certain extent
Why not just call themselves the British National Party and be done with it??
Yeah, the snp should see if the name is available. No shortage of pro Scottish independence votes south of the border.
Unless drifting to the right is a sign of ageing, along with elastic waisted beige pants (urine smell optional) , deafness, a belief that things were better when we where young and parking badly.
http://www.sacred-texts.com/cla/hesiod/works.htm
Written around 700BC
to some up life was good and its gone to s***.
There is something about the human condition that sees the the world falling apart and getting worse.
So to answer your point, todays youths will grow up and regard the world as crap and better back in the day. Which is why statistics matter, experience is simply false memories.
Thinking about forming the NNP the Northumbria National Party (Tweed to Humber Inclusive) not sure yhe Yorkshire separatists or the Cumbria popular front will buy into the idea...
Emily Thornbury on Andrew Marr re: Freedom of Movement (my recollection of what she said, it's on iPlayer)
"Do we have a problem with unscrupulous bosses using access to an unlimited workforce to reduce wages? Yes we do have a problem"
In a bizare twist of brexishambles a bunch of tory MPs wrote a letter to the EC complaining about them not starting negoriations soon enough
Not true at all. The UK said all existing EU citizens would be allowed to stay if the EU agreed also. That's not a negotiation it's a simple clear statement of intent to reassure 3m people in the UK. The fact the EU won't do the same shows what petty small minded people there are. There could not be a clearer sign that we should get out of the EU as soon as possible.
"Do we have a problem with unscrupulous bosses using access to an unlimited workforce to reduce wages? Yes we do have a problem"
You mean companies like Capita using the existing Visa laws to import cheap IT staff from the india????
Not really, it is more of an observation of their proposed policies.
The Chinese, Vietnamese and the Russians don't have freedom of movement. Even the North Koreans don't have freedom of movement and you couldn't get further left than them. No one has freedom of movement apart from the EU. It's the odd one out.
Isn't that the point of freedom of movement?
Not really, it is more of an observation of their proposed policies.
The Chinese, Vietnamese and the Russians don't have freedom of movement. Even the North Koreans don't have freedom of movement and you couldn't get further left than them. No one has freedom of movement apart from the EU. It's the odd one out.
Not wanting free movement is one thing, demonizing other nationalities is quite another.
And I wouldn't put Russia, China, Vietnam of South Korea in my list of countries to aspire to either!
The Chinese, Vietnamese and the Russians don't have freedom of movement. Even the North Koreans don't have freedom of movement and you couldn't get further left than them. No one has freedom of movement apart from the EU. It's the odd one out.
how well is North Korea functioning?
Does Europe have a history of hate, of wars, etc. Go back to why the EU exists, to bring the countries together and prevent more wars. Obviously those on the right have no interest in this and really only want to start another war and with it the business opportunities.
I hope that no brexister is ever in the position of explaining to their grandchildren that they have to die because i didn't want to work for a better future, i thought it best to go back to tribalism and war.
