[Closed] EU Referendum - are you in or out?

Which wasn't my point.
I haven't mentioned having a trade agreement with Germany, or German car manufacturers.
In fact my point was so obvious, and so simple, I'm not sure I can make it any easier to understand.

IMF now warning of 'massive' drops in house prices in the event of Brexit.

I'm not sure that 'threat' is going to have the effect that they wanted.

Has the "Bad Cat AIDS if you vote BREXIT" case been made yet ?

@Lifer Dyson tried to block the legislation as it was discriminatory and bad for his business, when that failed he pressed for a lower limit as a "counter-punch" thats was denied as it wasn't beneficial to the other vested interests. He's vote Leave as a result of EU regulations. He must be our most high profile business success of last 20 years and he's firmly Leave as its bad for his business.

@tmh, we'll have to agree to disagree about the importance of the euro and the economic incompetence of the EU. BoE could have said more closely aligning the UK with Asian growth economies as per the US/Obhama strategy could yield substantial benefits. Remaining in the EU will keep us aboard the sinking ship, it matters not whether we are in first or second class. Full steam ahead, it will all be fine, we know what we are doing. I can even hear Celon 😐

[img] [/img]

Spending (rounded figures)

Leave £2.7m
Remain £15.3m = £6m (mostly corporate donations inc from banks etc) plus £9.3m of government money

I do wonder what Remain are speniding their money on, I hardly see anyone anywhere handing out leaflets in towns amd cities, I haven't seen a single window poster or sign.

Further covergae of the immigration Gap - figures have of course been massively understated (not news really) and thats before including the black market laboirers who come without asking for a National Insurance number

jambalaya - Member
@Lifer Dyson tried to block the legislation as it was discriminatory and bad for his business, when that failed he pressed for a lower limit as a "counter-punch" thats was denied as it wasn't beneficial to the other vested interests.

You're just making stuff up now*

[url= http://www.telegraph.co.uk/technology/news/11075490/James-Dyson-suggests-leaving-the-EU-over-vacuum-cleaners.html ]Read[/url]

“When the ErP (Energy related Products) legislation was first mooted, we were campaigning for lower limits – in fact we wanted a 700 watt limit,” said Mr Dyson.

*again

@lifer well I am certainly not making up the fact the due to that EU legislation Dyson is firmly Leave am I ? Dyson spent his own money challenging the legislation in court knowing full well he had very little chance of success but it was worth it as the legislation was so bad for his business, the lower 700w energy limit was a tactic to try and get the while thing dropped as he knew that would really hurt the German manufacturers.

In other news ...

The IMF is in full Project Fear mode today, add to that they intend to publish more "detailed information" on June 19th - oh what a co-incidence. Vested interests dialled to 11, they want "their" money bank they foolishly lent to Greece (a chunk of it our money) and are well aware a Brexit could lead to the collapse of the whole EU project. remember its the same IMF who said UK austerity was the wrong policy before a full volte-face when our economy grew as Europe stagnated.

We have to get out of this political project, it makes no economic sense to remain in

jambalaya - Member
@lifer well I am certainly not making up the fact the due to that EU legislation Dyson is firmly Leave am I ?

I never said you did, but your reason is wrong. I quoted the bit you made up.

Dyson spent his own money challenging the legislation in court knowing full well he had very little chance of success but it was worth it as the legislation was so bad for his business, the lower 700w energy limit was a tactic to try and get the while thing dropped as he knew that would really hurt the German manufacturers.

No it wasn't, no matter how much you repeat it. Dyson, in his own words, campaigned for a lower limit before the legislation was written. The legislation isn't bad for his business, it doesn't affect his current products and they already produce products under the limit of the future one. His complaint is that other manufacturers products may exceed the limit when full, so in fact he's 'leave' because the legislation doesn't go far enough!

When the papers report that "the IMF" say that Brexit will cause a crash, cat AIDS etc, who do they actually mean? - backroom folk actually analysing data, or big-mouth Lagarde, who has been consistently wrong in her predictions on every other subject and wouldn't know the truth if it bit her on the ass?

( LOL @ #jambavacuumgate )

No it wasn't, no matter how much you repeat it. Dyson, in his own words, campaigned for a lower limit before the legislation was written. The legislation isn't bad for his business, it doesn't affect his current products and they already produce products under the limit of the future one. His complaint is that other manufacturers products may exceed the limit when full, so in fact he's 'leave' because the legislation doesn't go far enough!

Accurate portrayal of the facts is not a Brexit pre-req....

DrJ
( LOL @ #jambavacuumgate )

If you're going to lambast others for misrepresenting facts to support a point of view don't do it yourself.

If you're going to lambast others for misrepresenting facts to support a point of view don't do it yourself.

For example ... ?

I haven't mentioned having a trade agreement with Germany, or German car manufacturers

http://singletrackworld.com/forum/topic/eu-referendum-are-you-in-or-out/page/45#post-7697870

Impressive at least Jamby just gets the facts completely wrong he can remember what he said if not understand why others have pointed out why , what he said , was wrong.

FACEPALM

I never said you did, but your reason is wrong. I quoted the bit you made up.

Yes you got it right he wants to leave no you got it wrong on his position re motors. A child could understand this,

Spending (rounded figures)

Leave £2.7m
Remain £15.3m = £6m (mostly corporate donations inc from banks etc) plus £9.3m of government money

Where did you get those figures from?

Maybe the Brexiteers are planning a splurge..?

http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/684b41e8-1787-11e6-b197-a4af20d5575e.html#axzz48UdzMves

[quote=suburbanreuben spake unto the masses, saying]
[... some statistics posted by jamba ...]

Where did you get those figures from?
> http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/684b41e8-1787-11e6-b197-a4af20d5575e.html#axzz48UdzMves
br />

You must be new around here 🙂

Lifer - you get used to it after a while

it makes no economic sense to remain in

So you say but with very limited (if any) evidence to back it up. Ok, the IMF may have an agenda!, but FFS most major economic bodies have set the stall out in one direction which unsurprisingly is at odds with your view.

But a very simple question, when has withdrawing from trade zones, becoming increasingly isolationist (note your groups language of them and us) and protectionism contributed to higher growth.

The economic sense is clear and one way - the list grows by the day - Brexiteers are left with making things up, trivialities and xenophobia. Its a sad spectacle.

Lifer - you get used to it after a while

Don't be so hard on yourself.

😆

You get used to it after a while eh THM 😉

@tmh the clear evidence is that the EU is a mismanaged political project comprised of slow to change and low growth economies hoping to hide this fact by inviting and paying for poorer nations to join to help sustain the ponzi scheme. It's bust, devoid of the ability to form in the direction in deeds to grow. No one has produced an analysis of the impact of the impending Greek default and the contagion to other over extended European Economies as no one is willing to make public that reality. Look at investment fund flows, investors are pulling money out at a prodigious rate in a big "risk off" move as they can see what's coming. It's going to be a Tsunami and all we get from the OECD and IMF etc is their vested interest of please stay as you are. You need to factor in the impact on our growth of being dragged into the eurozone debacle, we cannot ignore it completely as it will impact everyone, hence the US's desire for us to Remain as they want us to help in the bail-out. It is this alone factor which is driving most of the "please stay" dialogue. Not a single piece of forward looking analysis from OECD, IMF etc has a Greek and eurozone debt crises as a scenario yet IMHO it's a nailed on certainty.

It really is like the Titanic heading for the ice at full speed

@ninfan agreed entirely on the "reverse effect", so many people said to me, un-prompted, a few weeks ago on the Vote Leave stall in Southampton that if the banks and IMF etc are for something it says to us we should be against.

@suburban the spending figures where published a few days ago

Yes - its been mismanaged, yes the euro is a disaster etc. Those are the known, knowns. We are not debating them. We are debating (or at least should be) the optimum relationship to have with one of the world's largest trading zones. That's all. The rest is noise.

Start with a blank sheet of paper and think what:

1. You would want from the relationship eg, co-operation, easy access, low cost of trade, freedom of movement of goods and services, capital, who know even people, sovereignty over monetary and fiscal policy and a freely traded and flexible exchange rate etc

2, You would not want from the relationship: animosity, loss of sovereignty over monetary and fiscal policy; a fixed exchange rate (Remember Norman ?); barriers to movement of goods, services, capital, people (ok, we might disagree on that one), restricted access, high transaction costs etc

You write your own list, its easy to do. These are just some examples.

Then take out the emotion, switch off Bojo and Dave and examine the true nature of the relationship we have with Europe. It wont be all 1 or 2 - nothing ever is. But REALLY what is. Are we maximising more of 1 and minimising more of 2 than if we were out?

And then, and only then, put your cross next to IN (obviously) or OUT ( 😯 )

It really is that simple

@ninfan agreed entirely on the "reverse effect", so many people said to me, un-prompted, a few weeks ago on the Vote Leave stall in Southampton that if the banks and IMF etc are for something it says to us we should be against.

Southampton? Were the heads in the sand or were they sitting Canute like facing the waves?

You cannot even remember what you said now no wonder you cannot understand things- its only the last page and yesterday

Trading with an entity is different to having a trade agreement with that entity.
Your levels of basic comprehension are so poor I really don't think there is any point in trying to explain anything to you, but I'm nice so I'll try.

Billy wants sweets.
He goes to the sweet shop and trades his pocket money for the sweets.

This is [i]trading[/i].

Now Billy wants to buy a lot of sweets.
Billy asks the big sweet shop in the country next door if he can purchase sixteen metric **** tons of sweets every week, but he doesn't want to pay any import/export tariffs.
The country the big sweet shop is in agrees not to levy any tariffs in return for an investment in their sweet manufacturing industry.

This is a [i]trade agreement[/i].

Do you see the difference now?
I'm not sure I can make this any simpler.
Without pictures.
Do you want pictures?
I will draw pictures for you if you think it will help you understand Junkyard.

Caveat: I am not an artist.

Just out of interest Jamba, of those people you say visited your stall in Southampton, how many were potential undecideds? Or are most people visiting your stand just wanting to reinforce their already trenchantly held beliefs with others of similar ilk.
I get the feeling that both sides who are out campaigning are often only encountering those who want reinforcement rather than information, therefore both sides are gaining an exaggerated idea of their support in the community.
It's a bit like those who comment in the Daily Heil, they say ' every one I know is going to vote leave, the polls are rigged'. It may be that most of the people they Know have that point of view, but that doesn't mean that the majority of the population who don't read the rag don't have very different views. Or that the people they [i]think[/i] are agreeing with them are not but they are too blinkered to realise it.
Also, many of those who disagree with a particular position are, in my experience, not likely to do so at such a stall, they would just ignore it. This is therefore likely to give a false positive impression to those manning it about the support in that location. I for one,who profoundly disagrees with the Leave Campaign, would walk to the other side of the street to avoid a Brexsist

Have we done the itv getting complaints from the leave campaign as they don't want Cameron debating with Farage.

I can't see the issue personally, hopefully Farage will make himself look his usual reasonable self

@jim I would say 75% where decided (Leave) and wanted to comment, congratulate us or ask how they could help. About 25% where undecided, I have to say Mrs B being French was very persuasive when she told them her reasons for being a Leaver. There is definitely a view that all Europeans are very pro. We had no IN-ers coming to debate/argue.

Mrs B pointed out a French news piece the other day where they had surveyed Italians, Swede's, French about whether they would like a referendum and if so how they would vote , the Leavers in Italy where around 50% (migrant crises issues). Other countries in the low 40's. Also as Mrs B pointed out the French voted against the Maastricht treaty but they got it anyway as the Government signed up. Satisfaction levels with the EU are not where Governments would like you to believe.

Ah, so much as I suspected then.

How many of the 25% left saying they had made their mind up? ( to you at least)

At least this time you chose to not pretend that you did not bring up the german manufacturers though ..baby steps and all that. Oh and can i just say you handled being wrong ever so politely and dignified 😛

The country the big sweet shop is in agrees not to levy any tariffs in return for an investment in their sweet manufacturing industry.

My art is as shit as your thinking.

Have the last word as clearly your stubbornness is greater than your thinking and I really cannot be arsed doing pages of this.

Also as Mrs B pointed out the French voted against the Maastricht treaty

You two are incredibly well suited to each other.

How has she forgotten the "petit oui",

Some 51 per cent of French voted in favour of the Maastricht Treaty in September 1992, with 49 per cent against in a vote that bolstered Socialist president François Mitterrand's hand and split the French Right. .

That little insight into #jambyplanet has genuinely made my day 😆

YOu literally could not make it up....well you two could but you know what I mean 😉

Brilliant

That little insight into #jambyplanet has genuinely made my day

I sort of picture them as the posh couple on Gogglebox

The more I listen to those coming out the woodwork: IMF, John Major, BoE ... the more I think they are just sh!tting themselves that Britain will leave and undermine the whole eu experiment.

Sick to death of the whole bloody thing. None of their predictions can be validated and it is solely based on their opinion. If you look at the track record of some of these institutions it makes you bloody laugh that they have the audacity to stick their bloody noses in.

Re James Dyson...

He must be our most high profile business success of last 20 years and he's firmly Leave as its bad for his business.

FFS, really? On what criteria?

Innovation? - I grant you the original Dyson vacuums were novel, but the technology came straight from the mineral processing industry...

Manufacturing / employment? Mostly offshore, presumably to avoid pesky European levels of overhead cost? If we leave, do we expect our manufacturing base to come flooding back? Because if they do it will be because we've all been screwed over so badly that we'll be willing to work for two shillings a week, bank holidays off and works trip to the beach in the summer, bread, milk, bangers & mash and the after work pint...

... Just where the leaders of Brexit want us - slap bang back in the fifties 👿

Oh and an ETA as I've just re-read...

high profile business success of last 20 years

IMF can predict the future? 😯 If they can then I want their crystal ball. 😛

They are the Megalodon of the loan shark world! 😆

Vote OUT!

Just out of interest Jamba, of those people you say visited your stall in Southampton, how many were potential undecideds? Or are most people visiting your stand just wanting to reinforce their already trenchantly held beliefs with others of similar ilk.
I get the feeling that both sides who are out campaigning are often only encountering those who want reinforcement rather than information, therefore both sides are gaining an exaggerated idea of their support in the community.
It's a bit like those who comment in the Daily Heil, they say ' every one I know is going to vote leave, the polls are rigged'. It may be that most of the people they Know have that point of view, but that doesn't mean that the majority of the population who don't read the rag don't have very different views. Or that the people they think are agreeing with them are not but they are too blinkered to realise it.
Also, many of those who disagree with a particular position are, in my experience, not likely to do so at such a stall, they would just ignore it. This is therefore likely to give a false positive impression to those manning it about the support in that location. I for one,who profoundly disagrees with the Leave Campaign, would walk to the other side of the street to avoid a Brexsist

AKA confirmation bias. See it all the time up here (everyone will vote yes, nobody will vote Labour, nobody will vote Tory).

Just where the leaders of Brexit want us - slap bang back in the fifties

If you haven't read this...

[img] [/img]

I take that that book isn't to be judged by its cover...

ETA - Just read an interesting review on that...!

@JY I'll take that up with Mrs B, it's what she told me. Indeed she's more right wing than me, closer to say a Hillary Clinton. 51/49 was hardly a ringing endorsement of the Treaty was it 😯 that's in France supposedly one of the most pro EU countries at the very centre of the organisation

@jimw all those we spoke to left saying they where Leave or more inclined to Leave, to be honest that was only a handful maybe 5 or 6 people and of course people may just be being polite. One thing that was interesting was the number of people both comitted Leave and unsure who where intimidated by being called racist for expressing concerns about immigration, this didn't change their views but meant they where afraid to speak out.

What I do see is that the Leave camp are much mkre passionate and active than the Remains and imo more likely to actually vote. I think we saw in the 2015 GE that thise who actually voted where more Tory than those who just andwered a telephone poll. Given everything stacked against the Leave campaign rescoure wise I think thats the most powerful factor towards a vote Leave victory.

Europe is very sick economically with unsustainable levels of Government debt and a political structure which cannot cope. If we do Remain the impending disaster will most badly effect the British working class and it will affect them very badly indeed. There is clear scope for a very substantial increase in wealth inequality as those at the bottom see welfare cut very significantly and wages undermined by a greater influx of Europeans looking for work as their domestic economies tank. The UK's wealthier citizens will become increasingly defensive reducing spending as well as seeing reductions in income.

I am personally very pessimistic, more so than ever before even in 2007 when I thought the crises would take 10 yeats to work out. The reality is we are no where near dealing wiith the problems and with rgeard to European Government debt we are actually in a far worse position.

The vote in 40 days time, thank God its not a 2yr process like in Scotland. Not sure I could cope with this level lf nonsense for much longer

jambalaya
What I do see is that the Leave camp are much mkre passionate and active than the Remains and imo more likely to actually vote.

Sick to death of the whole bloody thing. None of their predictions can be validated and it is solely based on their opinion. If you look at the track record of some of these institutions it makes you bloody laugh that they have the audacity to stick their bloody noses in.

Wonder if we have any new #jambyfacts after his leave rally? Did anyone point out your arguments were full of holes and based on made up shit?

Did anyone point out your arguments were full of holes and based on made up shit?

Don't be so friggin ignorant.

'Take a punt' 😯

Said it before I'll say it again. Only gamble if you can afford to lose. We can't afford to lose.

EDIT - damn should have quoted to frustrate ninja edit

Haha. That's why I love this thread. And the remain camps arguments are 100% accurate?
Don't be so friggin ignorant.

Some truth in that, though the OUT campaign currently is the one ending up with more egg on its face then the IN it appears..

You could almost say it's a case of whose telling the least number of lies & which of those lies you like the most??

[url= http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/may/13/boris-johnson-donald-trump-post-truth-politician ]Some lies..[/url]

If you are not prepared to take a punt then you are basically saying that there is no alternative option and we'll just go with the flow. If that is the case then I also think you need to look at the future of the union and accept that there will be a high probability of unified political union across member states and total governance by Brussels.

[url= http://www.euractiv.com/section/eu-priorities-2020/news/merkel-calls-for-political-union-to-save-the-euro/ ]http://www.euractiv.com/section/eu-priorities-2020/news/merkel-calls-for-political-union-to-save-the-euro/[/url]

Fudging the figures regarding total contribution to the eu is stupid, but in the scheme of things it's no where near as misleading as a 14 year treasury forecast regarding household incomes. The list goes on and on regarding the speculative scaremongering that is coming out of the remain camp.

Merkel wants greater political union? No shit Sherlock? We wil be claiming that the worlds is round soon, well perhaps not if we are Brexiteers.

To be successful, a currency union requires common monetary and fiscal policies which in turn requires political union. This is a known, known - see above.

We are not part of the process. We know that (unless you ae a Brexiteers it seems), the rest of the EU knows that, so does the RoW. Of course, we are not unique in that position altough I "think" that we are unique in having his clearly stated in our recent deal - see above.

All we are debating, or should be debating, is what is the best way to interact with the groups of countries that are going in that direction, the others like us and the RoW. It's pretty bleeding obvious that the status quo, while not perfect, is better than the Out option - hence need for Brexiteers to make stuff up with gay abandon.

Fudging the figures regarding total contribution to the eu is stupid, but in the scheme of things it's no where near as misleading as a 14 year treasury forecast regarding household incomes.

Other way round. It's easy to be correct with basic facts, another known, known. Forecasts especially over 14 years are just that forecasts, and have only one thing that is certain. They won't happen. Another known, known (there is a trend here) They are merely pointers based on certain assumptions that happen to be interesting or irrelevant (you decide).

But your claim needs to be reversed if it is to stand any scrutiny. Unless you are a Brexiteer, when you can just make stuff up for fun (it seems)

51/49 was hardly a ringing endorsement of the Treaty was it

Please realise that Scot nats are your kin

And the remain camps arguments are 100% accurate?
Don't be so friggin ignorant.

Neither campaign has been that good tbh but leaves view is false and remains view is exaggerated.

It's a very strange debate this and I actually agree with everything THM wrote. The campaigns do make for some interesting bed fellows

It's pretty bleeding obvious that the status quo, while not perfect, is better than the Out option

Feel the fear and do it anyway!

No. Consider the facts and make the rational conclusion. C'est facile ...vraiment.

[b]flanagaj [/b]" If that is the case then I also think you need to look at the future of the union and accept that there will be a high probability of unified political union across member states and total governance by Brussels."

So what? Politics changes and moves on- things don't always stay the same, no matter how [i]conservative[/i] you'd like things to be. We don't have the same economic, social, political make-up we had in say the 1950s- is that a bad thing too?

And if we leave, are you intending to then immediately lobby to have all the undemocratic, unelected, unresponsible elements removed in our domestic politics as well? Or are they ok because they're 'British'?