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😯Bleeding obvious based on what hard facts?
One only has to be rational. THM and I are as far apart as its possible to get [ no my mistake he is neutral] on both politics and economic views and we agree ...its just the truth.
As noted it sometimes get overstated but to deny it is just a sign of abject stupidity.
Now, I know this is going to be deemed contentious, but I'll post anyway. As we are all entitled to our opinion. I see the eu and ever closer union as a subtle way by Germany of being in control of eu member states without a repeat of WW2.
I totally understand and sympathise with Putin with regards to the way the EU has marched right up to Russia's door taking in countries that were once part of the USSR.
Well if portraying germany as expansionist hell bent on WW2 type domination and agreeing with Putin wont persuade folk off your case and its rational base then what will 😯
Let's reconvene this topic in 10 to 20 years time. We can pass judgement then. Until then cheerio.Well if portraying germany as expansionist hell bent on WW2 type domination and agreeing with Putin wont persuade folk off your case and its rational base then what will
Jambers. Please realise that Scot nats are your kin.
In this regard I agree. I hope Leave can better their Referendum result and match their electoral success. Difference with the UK is if there ever was a parliamentary majority for a pro-exit party there is a mechanism for unilateral action, trigger article 50
@Lifer the economc consequences of staying in the EU are very negative far worse than the risks of leaving in my opionion. The EU and the euro is built of financial quicksand, Greece is bust and it will be the largest sovereign defauit ever - not a bad effort for a country of 11m people whose economic suicide was ignored by Germany, France et-al and whose admitance to the euro was hugely irresponsible (at least Sarkozy now oublically admits what an error it was). If we vote Remain in 3, 6, 12 ... (?) months when Greece defaukts and contagion to the rest of the EU is front and centre then we can have this discussion again about where the real risks lay and what with hindsight woukd have been the better course of action.
@tmh whereas you are evey open that an inevitable move to a european superstate is required to save the euro (even that might not happen soon enough to save the currency) we don't hear such honesty from Corbyn who talks only of remaining in a reformed EU.
The IMF's intervention yesterday lead me to up my donation to Vote Leave, their deliberate timing of releasing further "opinion pieces" the 19th is outrageous.
JY it's an inconvenient truth that Europe's advances to Ukraine was a key part in provoking Putin. Its also very much the case that Merkel and Hollande wanted to do little about the annexation of Crimea, Obhama told them quite clearly "its Europe's problem, you take action". Hollande had to be forced to cancel the aircraft carrier delivery, he didn't want to at all. We can see in this, and so many other examples, what a dogs breakfast the European Superstate would be, they've fone a bit quiet on the Army idea but a European border force was being discussed just a few minths ago, armed troops to be sent into other sovereign nations to "police" their borders. No thanks
If you are not prepared to take a punt then you are basically saying that there is no alternative option and we'll just go with the flow
We're not talking about having a cheeky fiver on the 3:10 at Chepstow.
if there ever was a parliamentary majority for a pro-exit party
Well they have only ever managed to have 1 MP so i wont be holding my breath
the economc consequences of staying in the EU are very negative far worse than the risks of leaving in my opionion
And your views are well know for their rational and factual basis
we don't hear such honesty from Corbyn
FFS still having anti Corbyn rants 😯
Do you hear it from Dave then or George? Must do and that is why you singled out Corbyn....its definitely not your political/personal animus masquerading as a point 🙄
just a sign of abject stupidity.
Well, that's the flaw with the whole referendum and the muppets that suggested it. 40-50 years of raising stupid, generation after generation that "value" ignorance as some sort of virtue. Democracy - doesn't work if you don't have an informed electorate, and a substantial proportion of ours just does not want to be informed 🙁
Ohh, and this
...have a punt mentality
FFS, this is jobs and livelihoods, ours', our kids' and grandkids'...
And, if anyone wants to know what the UK might look like outside the EU, pop across the Irish Sea to Douglas. I've visited the Isle of Man quite a few times, including staying with locals.
First impressions are that it's fantastic - Britain without the "EU" bullshit. Hell, they don't even have speed limits on the open road, and can hold road races on normal roads...! It really, really does feel like the UK in a previous time.
Get a bit below the surface and you also find the less appealing side of "Britain in the 50s, 60s or 70s".
Pubs are pubs - don't even think of taking kids in as part of a family meal ( remember when the UK was like that???)
Justice is swift, summary and somewhat arbitrary. Coppers & the magistrate aren't to be argued with. If they don't like the cut of your jib, then the verdict is likely to be "constable, take him to the port, put him on the boat and tell him not to come back". This might sound quite quaint and appealing, but don't even think about appealing. Power / authority is vested in certain individuals, is arbitrary and not to be challenged (all IMHO, but I stayed with a pair of IoM coppers and their take was very interesting)
Remember Clarkson revelled in all this when he moved there - until he fell foul of the authorities about a footpath...
Flange and Jambas - interesting point about Russian encirclement and one with which I have considerable sympathy. However, remember who made the promise and who broke it. The EU? No, it wasn't so let's not misuse historical facts. It was a NATO decision and NATO actions that have (unsurprisingly) pissed the Russians off.
NATO and EU are different things as Bojo never hesitates to remind us.
Ohh, and this
have a punt mentality
...
FFS, this is jobs and livelihoods, ours', our kids' and grandkids'...
Not enough ++++++ in the World for that!
I see the eu and ever closer union as a subtle way by Germany of being in control of eu member states without a repeat of WW2.
Quite seriously WTF???
mrlebowski - Member
I see the eu and ever closer union as a subtle way by Germany of being in control of eu member states without a repeat of WW2.
Quite seriously WTF???
Why not? That is one possibility if Germany is looking after number one.
Slight hijack.
I don't know about you lot but I have noticed the behaviour of some of the German politicians are getting a bit weird as they becoming very too eager to please their Chancellor. Have you seen the political entourage surrounding her? A bit like their previous WWII Chancellor surrounded by his too eager "advisors" innit.
Has it really taken 47 pages before someone links the euro to Hitler?
If so wow. And seriously? You are suggesting that?
grahamt1980 - Member
Has it really taken 47 pages before someone links the [b]euro to Hitler[/b]?
If so wow. And seriously? You are suggesting that?
Nope. I am [b]not making that link[/b] but just saying some of the politicians are behaving weirdly. i.e. the too eager to please type. Have you seen those political entourage accompanying their leader? A bit like they are trying to lick her boots clean because of her "god" ike image? (not sure if I have expressed this correctly but that's how we describe them in the far east)
Junkyard - lazarusAt least this time you chose to not pretend that you did not bring up the german manufacturers though
Never did pretend.
You simply struggle to understand the difference between trading and having a trade agreement, hence my very simple example.
Yes but the problem is the sweet shop is in the EU and the country does not have the power to do this as you need an agreement with the entire EU not that country. That was my point and it is still true and you are still wrong. I am sure if we keep doing this you will eventually grasp the really complicated point that you cannot have trade agreements with countries in the EU you can only have them with the EU...Do you want a picture of a trading bloc now?
You've erected a strawman.
The sweetshop example was just there to try and explain the difference between trading and having a trade agreement, which you still seem to be struggling with.
Television.
Television remote.
Fish.
Fish tank.
Do you get it now?
Try and spend a little less time typing and a little more time reading.
I'd much rather discuss things that have been said, rather than things that haven't.
Arguing against things I haven't said doesn't make me wrong, it makes you look silly. Especially when you take such delight in pointing it out to others. 💡
I see the eu and ever closer union as a subtle way by Germany of being in control of eu member states without a repeat of WW2.
Yes we need to leave the EU so we can have another war with Germany. The intervening 70 years of peace have been very boring, and this time they'd stand no chance as we have nukes and they don't. 😀
😀
Dont be so rash...which side are the Americans on?
On the positive side if Bexit as sugested by many "wise" men leads to a breakup of the EU we would be able to trade with every one 😉
struggle to understand the difference between trading and having a trade agreement
Genuine question, as I'm neither here nor there on this vote. How does a trade agreement negotiated with the EU help individual countries within the EU? The necessary imports & exports of each member state differ greatly, and I can't see how a blanket trade agreement can look after the interests of all to an equal extent. Surely that's not a good thing?
Why not? That is one possibility if Germany is looking after number one.Slight hijack.
I don't know about you lot but I have noticed the behaviour of some of the German politicians are getting a bit weird as they becoming very too eager to please their Chancellor. Have you seen the political entourage surrounding her? A bit like their previous WWII Chancellor surrounded by his too eager "advisors" innit.
Could well be. At the risk of being labelled a small-minded, inward-looking, Little Englander xenophobe - incorrectly, I might add - maybe Germany knows whats coming and the sooner everyone in Europe is "in it together" the better, from the point of view of their economy.
[url= http://www.reuters.com/article/us-europe-migrants-germany-costs-idUSKCN0Y50DY ]http://www.reuters.com/article/us-europe-migrants-germany-costs-idUSKCN0Y50DY[/url]
Actually the lefties are causing similar damage, if not more, in other part of the world. Their influence or ideology has led to ethic cleansing and genocide in some "naive" countries where the people thought they have found the ideal of life from China to South East Asia. This lefties ideology must be dismantle bits by bits otherwise the shite stirrer is going to cause more suffering to the people there. Think China is dismantling it slowly to replace it with their own ideology ...
The Flying Ox - Member
Could well be. At the risk of being labelled a small-minded, inward-looking, Little Englander xenophobe - incorrectly, I might add - maybe Germany knows whats coming and the sooner everyone in Europe is "in it together" the better, from the point of view of their economy.
It is in our/your nature to look after number one so whether we "fight" as a united unit against whatever or fight as a coalition it does not matter. Just face up to the challenge. Just fight.
Is the EU membership as good as it gets?
We used to be a powerful nation trading round the world. Now we follow the US in to war and have no ambition.
You bed wetters aren't on my team.
Out.
We used to be a powerful nation yes, I'm afraid those days are past we don't have an empire any more and won't ever have one again.
We still have a strong economy now but it is based on services for other nations and our own, why else do we have such a big trade imbalance.
Britain is a small nation that bats above its average, that is a good thing but to think that we can be a big powerful nation for ever more is deluded, the nations that have a near expendable workforce will lead in the future and as far as i can see being part of a large trading bloc (and yes it has flaws) is probably our only defence against fading into an unimportant island, despite our nuclear weapons.
Our major strength is our creativity and that is based on immigration which appears to be the main bogey man for the brexiters.
Our major strength is our creativity and that is based on immigration which appears to be the main bogey man for the brexiters.
Creavivity based on immigration 😯
My main bogey is [b]uncontrolled[/b] immigration. If we are going to take 300-500,000 pa lets pick the best from the whole world and have the ability to turn the tap off if required.
You bed wetters aren't on my team.
I'm crushed..
Considering the uk is fundamentally a mongrey nation it is exactly that mix of nationalities and different cultures that has made the uk what it is.
We can stand alone if the country chooses to do so but long term it will diminish us.
What that there Winston Churchill had to say about the matter of European unification.....& he knew one or two things about the Germans
..[url= http://www.churchill-society-london.org.uk/astonish.html ]Speech..[/url]
This notion that we had an Empire in the past and somehow going forward we are reliant on a low growth Europe which is the one mired in the past is quite incredible to me. As per Obama the future is in the East, He deliberately and publically refocussed the US towards Asia and away from Europe, we need to do the same.
Britain is a small nation
No it isn't! There are loads of unprovable statements and conjectures on this thread, buy this isn't one. It's a cold fact. We're not small!
Considering the uk is fundamentally a mongrey nation it is exactly that mix of nationalities and different cultures that has made the uk what it is.
We can stand alone if the country chooses to do so but long term it will diminish us.
I also don't understand the argument that leaving the EU equates to an end to all immigration, which appears to be the tack some on the "Remain" side appear to take.
We're not small!
We are small in terms of geography and population on the global scale but we do punch massively above our weight. However times have changed and we will struggle, due to size, if we go it alone, Not impossible but certainly more difficult.
We used to be a powerful nation trading round the world. Now we follow the US in to war and have no ambition.
What parts of the world are you after conquering and subjugating? Be specific will you?Its sad that folk still hanker for an empire that did not exist even if their lifetime
@MrLeb absolutely he did, he discissed a United States of Europe but not for one second did he imagine Great Britain would be part of it. He felt a union between France and Germany would bring an end to the conflcit between those two nations.
We certainly will become a small nation if we adopt the "them and us" narrative and isolationist/xenophobic stance of the leading Brexiteers
We will remain a great nation if we continue to focus on "us together", co-operation as well and competition, with a global outlook and an acceptance of the free movement of capital, goods and services and people. They are routes to success - past, present and future. Utter madness to pretend otherwise when the full weight of history is so clear.
..."us together", co-operation as well and competition, with a global outlook and an acceptance of the free movement of capital, goods and services and people.
Why are these things only possible under membership of the EU? That is what you're saying, isn't it?
"The whole movement of the world is towards an interdependence of nations. We feel all around us the belief that it is our best hope, if independent, individual sovereignty is sacrosanct and inviolable, how is it that we are wedded to a world organisation?... How is it that we have undertaken this immense obligation for the defence of Western Europe...? It can only be justified and even tolerated because on either side of the Atlantic it is felt that interdependence is part of our faith and the means of our salvation."
Churchill 1950
There not Ox. But - and this is the only relevant point - they are more likely in an IN context than an OUT one.
As I said the weight of history is behind this rather than the BS of the Brexiteers. Folly to throw away what is a pretty strong position - full access, no Euro, no Schengen, no political union, no bendy bananas etc....actually forget pretty strong, bloody strong position.
brexiteers round for supper tonight - must avoid the subject! - 4 consultants/ senior doctors last night with wonderful comment from 2 - of course its about money!!! 😉
they are more likely in an IN context than an OUT one.
Why? Apologies if it seems like I need to be spoon-fed this, but aside from it taking a certain amount of time to get our ducks in a row once out vs we already have most of our ducks in a row cos we're still in, how do you come to the conclusion about the likelihood of those conditions? You've already agreed that the existence of those conditions and "Brexit" are not mutually exclusive.
Brexiters= bold, regain our place on the world stage, trade etc.
Remain = Cameron, Harriet Harman and the bloke who shagged our economy Mr Brown.
And most businessesmen and commentators.. Shit selective comment, Hora. Very poor.
Hora you are one deep thinker
Can you elaborate on the trade angle for me please?
I normally find STW to be a stimulating and articulate place, full of good info and advice.
The opinions being expressed on this thread are terrifying - truly cringeworthy... If it wasn't for the topicality of the question, I'd say it's enough to make me feel ashamed to be British (but that plays to Brexiteers, who seem to have some false claim on patriotism)
The U.K. joined the EEC when I was 6. I don't remember the political issues of the time, but bloody hell, I can recognise how much the country has changed - and mostly for the better. My school at the time had outside sh!thouses, we (just) had a B&W telly, baths were once a week and the country was deeply racist & sexist.
The U.K. is unrecognisable compared to when I was a kid / teenager / young man. Better off, more liberal, more tolerant (I thought). Of course, it would be stupid to say is down to Europe, but I truly believe that progress has been quicker because of the influence and interaction with our European neighbours.
And economically? Where are we now compared to 1973? Massively better off, for most - financially and in our life choices. As a comparison on the "progress" front, there was an interesting analysis on the BBC website about Trump, and his appeal. American "blue collar" workers are no better of in 2016 than they were in the mid-70s. I cannot imagine anyone would claim the same for Britain. And much of the US can hardly be accused of moving forward with liberal attitudes.
Nothing to do with Europe? Possibly not, but they're changes that have improved our lives whilst the Country has been a member of the European club.
Rkk01 I feel insulted with the war in Europe and other insulting comments designed to offend intelligence. But hey.
Why sink to to the level of the politicians who are sinking Britain. Maybe with a no vote we'll have political changes et al.
Brexiters= bold, regain our place on the world stage, trade etc.
And how, exactly, are we going to do that???
Militarily? WTF?
Economically? - of course!! Our strong manufacturing base will flood the global market with our superior and competitive products - or perhaps our illustrious bankers will deviously extort our way back to the top of the global league table...
I'd expect. No I'm mightily heartened, that my two teenagers have a better grasp of reality. I just hope they don't have to FO to a less backwards country* to make their way in the world 😡
* in the event that this ridiculous anti-intellectual coup is pulled off by the disingenuous politicians that are pushing their own self interested agenda